To Protest or Not

The reactions on twitter to the current protests when we play at home seem to be either one extreme or another……..

Entitled morons who make us all look a bit thick if they think that a few hundred of them will make any difference whatsoever……..

Or

Good on them; if you want to see a change right now or, at a bare minimum, want a managerial change in the summer, then you ought to get up and at least attempt to do something about it.

It would be great to see banners about the football again rather than about everyone’s overriding obsession with the manager.

My personal favourite banner of all time……ahhh, the good old days when we had “our Arsenal back”. Does this translate to, when we were winning stuff?

Thoughts?

chas

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55 Responses to To Protest or Not

  1. GunnerN5 says:

    I’d love to comment Chas but my thoughts of the subject are well known and get me into all sorts of trouble.

    Oops couldn’t resist?

    “ARSENE IN”

  2. VP of Oz says:

    My wife knows next to nothing about football and Arsenal, so when I asked her on her thoughts on Arsene In or Arsene Out, she said “it just sounds like crude bogans trying to be funny”

  3. alex says:

    Fourth place is not a trophy. It is a Champions League qualification place, simple. Get rid of Wenger and we are mid-table team lucky if we play Europa League. See how well United is doing with their “best” manager.

  4. Shard says:

    We can argue about it all day, but when opposition players are looking to our home crowd to support them, I think it’s clear where the problem lies.

    A non league player said it because he doesn’t have a PR team to manage him. But I bet all players think a bit like that now. When was the last time the crowd put energy into urging Arsenal out of a slump – real or perceived?

    Much easier to blame it all on the manager, and moan about being in a position that very few clubs are lucky enough to be in in the first place.

    Oh and hi chas and everbody!

  5. GunnerN5 says:

    Hi Shard, nice to see you back and to read your comment.

    I’ve been on about how poor our home support is for many years now. The critical minority are now using social media as their loud speaker and the media lap it all up as it suits their agenda to increase sales.

    How sad is it when they use our top 4 successes as a weapon against our manager and board.

  6. Shard says:

    Hi GN5.

    Yes that is really sad and annoying. I mean I can understand believing that Wenger should go even if I don’t agree. But I think it weakens their case if to make their argument they have to resort to portraying achievements as failures, and display a complete lack of proportionality to how ‘bad’ we actually are.

  7. chas says:

    This was at the Minnesota United versus Atlanta United game in the MLS. Looks a bit snowy. 🙂

  8. Big Raddy says:

    chas. Thank you

    Shard. Good to read you r comments again. You have been missed.

    I think a little protesting is healthy and worthwhile as long as it remains respectful.

    I love the Arsenal and one of the things I love about my seemingly fanatical support is that I know I have no influence over anything to do with The Arsenal, whether it be the manager, the players, the tactics etc etc.

    None whatsoever..

    If people want to waste their time and money protesting, good on them, but not in my name.

  9. Shard says:

    Thanks BR. Always good to be missed 🙂

    I don’t mind the protests. But this isn’t a matter of life and death (don’t bring up Bill Shankly) They have the option of not attending, not watching or whatever. Protests should be about having your voice heard, not about spoiling it for everyone until you get your way. Somewhere along the way they’ve forgotten that (some were only in it for the ‘fame’ from the start)

    If the manager renews, will these people still spend the next few years manufacturing outrage at every game? Seems self defeating to me, keeping up this incessant negativity. And totally besides the point of the game.

  10. wally says:

    To answer chas’ question.
    Fans are tired of a team that isn’t competing for the title. For the amount of money the team takes in and the amount of money spent on players and managers they have precious little to show for it do they. Right now there is little difference between our team and say Stoke or Everton in terms of results. All three are in the top half of the table. Woohoo! Mediocrity is not success.

    People want a team that competes for the title. They’re not getting it and thus the dissatisfaction.

  11. Shard says:

    ‘Fans are tired of a team that isn’t competing for the title’

    While that is true, I would argue what has got to supporters is the consistency (or predictability) of it all. If Arsenal had fallen out of the CL spots a few years and fought their way back bravely a couple of years (a la Liverpool, Spurs and now even ManU and Chelsea) and also changed things up, we would be objectively worse off, but the mood would be better (for evidence, look at the aforementioned Scousers and Spuds)

    Basically, I think a lot just want change for change’s sake because they feel SOMETHING needs to be done. And the only something they can look at is other clubs who change managers all the time. And yet no club is as consistently good as Arsenal are (mediocre we are not.)

    Newcastle and Bobby Robson, and Charlton and Alan Curbishley come to mind as fans hounding out a manager because they thought they had outgrown them. Arsenal’s true indicators should be judged against Liverpool and Spurs. Not the moneyed clubs, even though we regularly compete against and hope to beat them.

    If we had the funds of Chelsea/ManCity/ManU, I would argue we should go for a high variance model because we’ve got the funds to push and/or correct any mistakes. But Arsenal, like it or not, are not at that financial level. So if we’re looking to get to the top, I would argue that isn’t a model we can follow.

    None of that is specifically to do with the manager per se. Change Wenger and it’ll be different. But I find it very unlikely that it’ll be better.

  12. GunnerN5 says:

    – 9c here, snow falling and 12-18″ forecast over the next 24 hours.
    Off out the buy some groceries before the snow gets too bad.

  13. Hlanganani Thodlana says:

    What do you expect when your team is partly ( or hugely for that matter) owned by a gentleman who owns a couple of other teams in different sports who also do not ever win anything but just barely stay up in the top 5 but make a whole lot of money. The writing is on the wall : This is about money and not football. #weneedchange

  14. GunnerN5 says:

    Shard, I am not aware of any manager that could have equaled or improved our record over the past 20 seasons.

    Any manger who replaces AW will be faced with the exactly the same issues that he is faced with – but will they be able to improve on his record???

  15. Shard says:

    Most managers won’t even have taken on the challenge GN5.

    And especially not when they could choose to go to Barcelona, Real Madrid and Bayern Munich (the 3 biggest clubs in the world)

  16. wally says:

    Shard,
    If we’d been down as a result of building the stadium and fought our way back in the mood would indeed be different.
    And something does need to be done, unless you’re satisfied with merely being in the top half of the table. Fans want the team to push on and achieve. They have the resources to do so. There is no evidence that the current manager can push the team forward from here. There is no evidence that the current team is good enough to achieve anything. Ergo change is required.
    Given the manager has only a few years left in a great career the notion that he could build another team (as he’s done in the past) in the time allotted would be a stretch. If a new team has to be built better to let the next one build the team in his fashion than inherit a team half built and not to his specs.
    Saying we can’t be compared to manure or citeh or chavs is giving up. It’s saying we can’t afford to win. To paraphrase another one, i’m not for turning. Conte has come in and re-invented chelsea with the existing players, without massive spending. Leicester won the league with a budget not even half of ours. To say it can’t be done is simply not true.
    What wenger has done in his career is fantastic. And it’s irrelevant to what comes next. Better to rip the band-aid off and cleanse the wound then let it continue to fester and mumble that the leg hasn’t fallen off yet.
    Change is hard. People are afraid of the unknown. I get it. Insofar as i’m concerned the team should move forward and embrace the opportunity to be better.

  17. mickydidit89 says:

    Great stuff Chas, thanks

    There’s an ancient and very wise truism

    When three or more are gathered together in thine name
    And they weareth the brand of Primark
    Then thou shalt not hear shitballs

    Wise men aside, my view is no-one is listening. People having been black scarving for about eight years one way or another.

    My money says the board want him to stay, but he’ll wait to see how results go between now and the end of the season when his contract is up.

  18. mickydidit89 says:

    Hi Shard

    “Most managers won’t even have taken on the challenge”

    Definitely don’t agree. I reckon managing Arsenal is a seriously juicy job. Sure, it’s not an elite club, but still a massive job in a great City.

  19. Shard says:

    micky

    Managing Arsenal during the time of the stadium build? Annually selling your best players, a net negative transfer spend over a decade, and still having to make the top 4, at least 3 out of every 4 years, along with the pressure of x years without a trophy narrative? I doubt anyone would willingly take all that on.

    Of course I meant any serious candidates. I’m sure Owen Coyle and David Moyes would have been interested though 🙂

  20. mickydidit89 says:

    Who? 🙂

    Seriously, outside the Barcas and Bayerns, I still think most would leap.

  21. Shard says:

    wally

    That is a reasonable argument. Insofar as you don’t veer off into telling me it is ‘giving up’ or ‘fear of change’ that makes me think Wenger is still the man to take us forward.

    But as regards you saying Wenger is towards the end of his career and it may be a stretch that he can rebuild. Decent point, the time is coming for Wenger to go anyway, so why not now?

    One, I said why not now. I doubt Wenger going changes very much with Arsenal for the better, because I don’t believe the real issues ‘holding us back’ are to do with the identity of the manager. We are a good club, just below elite level, competing for players against 3 domestic clubs who have more money than us, and at least two who have similar funds (except they aren’t regular CL qualifiers)

    I think we would be getting rid of the safest hands in football (no other manager, to my knowledge, has made at least par with his spending every year) without knowing what we want in exchange. This isn’t ‘fear’. I agree that something has to change, but I wouldn’t take a major step like this without trying to figure out what that something is.

    Let’s say Arsenal were your long term investment (which they are, emotionally) Could you justify firing Wenger to your ‘board’? Like beyond the short term emotional aspect of changing things, what reasons do you have for believing it will be better, that you would be willing to risk our current status as a Grade A club to try to enter the Grade A+ club? Personally, I think it more likely we’d go the Liverpool way than become bigger hitters.

    And two. You’re pushing out Arsene Wenger! A huge part of your history. That, to me at least, is a big f***ing deal! Especially when considering the above.

    So, let’s turn around your question. Why get rid of Wenger now? He’s obviously not going to continue forever. He has a huge history with this club and he always delivers at least the bare minimum and pretty much guarantees your club maintains its place near the elite. So why push him out if neither he, nor the board, want him to go.

    Besides, the board wanting him to stay doesn’t make them incompetent. Stan would be doing everything to protect their investment and their brand. The protests damage the brand. If they are still wanting Wenger around, it’s because they haven’t found a better candidate.

    Changing SOMETHING doesn’t convince me when you are talking about getting rid of Arsene Wenger.

  22. Shard says:

    And with that essay, I’m off 🙂

  23. Cheers chas

    Um? Let me see? How do I express my sentiment on the protesters? The last i heard is the fools plan to hire a plane and fly over the Hawthorne’s proclaiming “Wenger Out – West Brom? A Club troublingly near Birmingham”

    It will cost the mugs a grand for the plane and at least a couple of thousand for the pilot. Normally its just 1k for pilot but its doubled because no bleeder wants to crash near Birmingham.

    As a failed pilot, I offer my services. I flunked my flying test for testing positive for LSD and for leaving the cockpit unmanned in order to announce to the passengers that after a blinding flash of light I had just been baptised by John the Baptist.

    Yes, i will fly them alright. Half way through the flight and mid sentence on how i am explain Wenger is an arsehole for not buying Christiano Ronaldo, i viciously announce “Repent Herod” and proceed to do a Salome lap dance whilst seeking congratulation on my mental illness.

    I plan to crash the plane in St Albans. Its lovely there, civilised people and great for a stroll or an exploding firebomb.

  24. Rasp says:

    Thanks chas, we all protest about things in one form or another … from a comment on a blog to a banner at a stadium. We have a democratic right to freedom of speech. My addendum to that would be that people lose the right to protest when by that act they disenfranchise others by denying them their basic rights.

    No one has a right to be racist or homophobic in the name of freedom of speech.

    Against that, the trifling matter of holding up a stupid banner at an inappropriate time makes the whole fanbase look bad … and I’d prefer they didn’t do it, but I guess we have to put up with it. We still have the right to condemn it on here and other social media etc.

    The larger debate about whether AW should stay or go will continue. No one side of the argument has a greater right to their opinion than the other. I agree with those who say our opinion counts for nothing in terms of influence on the owner or Board. It appears AW does take the opinion of supporters into consideration if my interpretation of some of his recent comments is correct.

  25. Eddie says:

    the horse has bolted, too late. Wenger should have resigned a couple of years ago, that was the time to rebuild, buy some new, get rid of some old. And now that allegedly our best players want to leave we need Wenger! Only he can save us. Bollix.

    yes, even I think he should stay and sort out that mess, good luck to him

    I am with micky re Wenger has the best job in the world

  26. Eddie says:

    Real Madrid fan has demanded the tie be replayed due to the performance of referee, Deniz Aytekin.
    Aytekin was heavily criticised for his performance in the Nou Camp after he gave two controversial penalties for Barcelona and turning down PSG’s appeals for a spot-kick when Javier Mascherano slid in on Angel Di Maria.
    Real Madrid fan, Luis Melendo Olmedo, has set up the petition on change.org and has asked that Uefa strike the result from the record.
    Olmedo cites “incidents that seriously damaged PSG as a result of the German referee Deniz Aytekin, who gave Barcelona an advantage with his refereeing decisions” as the inspiration behind the petition. 
    Barcelona defender Javier Mascherano admitted he had fouled Di Maria in the penalty area with the Argentine closing in on goal.

    Do we want a rematch with Bayern?? hm, perhaps not.

  27. mickydidit89 says:

    Bonsoir Eddie

    Bloody praying we don’t draw Totnum tonight and that they get Chelsea

  28. Eddie says:

    Bonsoir to you too DidIt 🙂

    what time is the draw?

  29. Eddie says:

    after the game.
    Chavs look awesome, shit shit shit

  30. mickydidit89 says:

    Bugger it’s started. Budge up, coming to watch.

  31. mickydidit89 says:

    fight fight fight 🙂

  32. Eddie says:

    go on Tony! Head butt the twat

  33. mickydidit89 says:

    Tony!!!!

  34. Rasp says:

    Manu should have played Pogba …. 🙂

  35. mickydidit89 says:

    Rasp 🙂

    Can’t decide if I want Utd to score. Guess so, just for the extra minutes for them

  36. Aaron says:

    Just watched valencia 2 foot moses and only a foul. So, this sending off crap has got to stop!

  37. mickydidit89 says:

    Blimey, Kante is tiny

  38. mickydidit89 says:

    he’s 5′ 4″!

    What’s that in millimetres? Must sound taller

  39. mickydidit89 says:

    Excellent draw

  40. GunnerN5 says:

    Chelsea v Spurs
    Arsenal v Man C

  41. wally says:

    Shard,
    Giving up is when you cite money as the basis for which we can’t compete. It’s a patently false excuse. I’ve already mentioned Chavs and leicester. Manure spent over $150mm quid and what has it got them? Juve has built a team that wins and wins in Europe on a far skinnier budget than Arsenal have. Money is not a reason.
    The safest hands in the game? Both Conte and Allegri have done more with less. He’s not the only guy.
    Arsenal are not like an investment. I get zero monetary benefit from rooting for Arsenal. I don’t have a portfolio of teams i root for of which Arsenal are merely one of many. I have one and only one. The analogy falls flat.
    So why get rid of wenger now? He’s under achieving. He’s been under achieving for several years now. The team follows a familiar pattern each season and he’s shown zero ability to change that pattern. They drop games and points because they can’t defend. They drop points because they have mediocre to insipid performances against all types of teams.
    He’s built his reputation on developing players, he’s developed nothing in recent years. NOTHING! The current version of the team was supposed ot have an English core that would drive them forward. Wilshire, Walcott, Ramsey, Chamberlain, Gibbs. They’ve all amounted to average players. Nothing more. (We debate whether walcott should still be here, why chamberlain can’t fulfill his potential, why wilshire had to be lent out and can’t even get on the field against manure, gibbs is now a reserve and ramsey is injured as often as he plays and had one good year in the last 4.) Xhaka has made himself into a squad player at best. Giroux is a one trick pony. Welbeck? Who knows? And now he’s once again on the verge of losing his best player because he can’t surround him with anything better than average. And that’s with the second highest wage bill in the league ( a pretty poor return on your investment wouldn’t you say).

    In sum, and this is my last word on the subject because i’m sure you’re all tired of hearing it, the two arguments being put forward for wenger are his historical contributions to the club and the expression of fear that it could be worse with someone else. Not a word of what he can do to make the team better or what he’s done with other teams to make them better. And we all know why those arguments aren’t put forward.
    Simply an appeal to sentimentality and fear of the unknown. I find them both to be intellectually bereft arguments for keeping wenger.

  42. Ant says:

    I support Wenger all the time he is Arsenal manager.

    Great draw, we can beat City and a nice day out!

  43. Aaron says:

    Wally-
    For real- manure were without their best scorers, but you likely overlooked that. chavs got lucky on the red or it might have ended 1-1 and extra time.
    Arsenal have a chance to move on with the draw against $h*ty and chavs moving on against a toothless tott.
    Would truly enjoy the Arsenal having a solid chance against the chavs in the final and beating that troll conte, and that diving fck costA!
    Look forward to the game.

  44. Been a hard working individual with limited sexual opportunities I came home and slept through the Chelsea game.

    But it’s the perfect draw. Big if getting past City and Totnumb beating Chelsea, but that’s what I want.

    Arsenal Totnumb final has never happened before. If we go on and win the Cup by doing them in the final it will be one of the greatest days of my life, up there with my divorce and watching Paul Daniels get bit by one of his Rabbits.

    The Ghosts of the Thirties are Stirring

    Come on

  45. chas mobile says:

  46. chas mobile says:

  47. mickydidit89 says:

    Morning Chas

    In your U23 vid, there’s an Arsenal player with no number on his back (see central midfield)

    I demand a re-match 🙂

  48. Shard says:

    Morning all.

    Wally.

    He’s only underachieving based on your expectations, not on hard realities.

    I also never said we can’t or mustn’t compete. Merely that we must be realistic in our assessment because actually we are at Liverpool and Spurs level in terms of finances. And if money didn’t matter, ManCity and Chelsea wouldn’t be where they are. Your example of Chelsea though, is bizarre. They are an expensively assembled squad, who won the title two years ago, took an year off, and now have no CL and this has contributed to them having a generally fit first XI. (Like Liverpool benefited from no CL a few seasons ago too) Leicester were an outlier, proving only that it CAN be done, not that it MUST be done.

    I do admit the last two seasons have been disappointing. But there’s a difference between disappointing and bad.

    As for how Wenger can do better? Well maybe having a fit midfield would help. (He made a mistake loaning out Wilshere without bringing in anyone else) For the first time in a long time, we had two midfield combos. Santi and Coq, and Xhaka and Ramsey. Maybe you want to blame Wenger for losing Santi and Ramsey to injury for most of the season, and Xhaka being sent off twice for what normally would draw yellows. Even Elneny had the ACN and then injuries.

    Not to say that we don’t need to do something (there’s that pesky word again) about it, but I venture if any team had its midfield decimated like that, they would struggle, and likely struggle worse. That’s what makes Wenger the safest pair of hands in the world. Despite a perpetual state of crisis kept up, Arsenal come out relatively unscathed.

    And I get it. You think he’s too safe, too conservative. Maybe. But unless the board are willing to push the boat out more, I think that is generally the way to go about things for us.

  49. Shard says:

    Sorry for another essay. I actually am tired of the whole Wenger in, Wenger out, Wenger shake it all about stuff.

    I’m going to refrain from it because no one is going to change their mind about it.

    In any case, that was not the question posed here.

    The way I look at it, if I campaigned to get a manager out of a football club he would have to be really bad at the whole football thing, or a really bad person. Wenger is neither. More likely I would just take an emotional distance from the club for a while.

    As far as I’m concerned the protests are not protests. They are at this point dogs in the manger. ‘If I can’t have what I want, you can’t have what you want either’. And I bet their attitude stays the same with any new manager who comes in and doesn’t conform to their idea of success.

    At what point does love for the club become hate for the club exactly? As far as I can tell these fans put more energy into protesting than doing something that might actually help..like supporting during the match. And why is the manager the biggest deal therein? I just think whoever is the manager, we will be only as likely to win as we are now, and way more likely to be worse. Like I said, my belief is not based on fear. I have nothing to fear. I want Arsenal to win everything but I don’t need them to. I know I will still enjoy watching and supporting them.

  50. Eddie says:

    we are not having a referendum here! We are not allowed to vote and have any impact on Wenger’s whereabouts next season.

    We are simply allowed to express our wishes and opinions.

    “I support any manager when he is in charge of Arsenal”. Yeah yeah yeah we all do. I support Wenger and I want him to succeed in the FA cup but end of season i wish he went somewhere else to win FA cups. And then I will support the next manager of the AFC

  51. chas says:

  52. Big Raddy says:

    Morning All,

    Terribly boring game last night. Only the tiff between the Portuguese coward and the Italian bloke with good hair was of interest.

    Draw is good. Beating City at Wembley would be great.

  53. chas says:

    NEW POST

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