It is what it is….. hari kiri

Arenal v Manchester United in recent history have always been special games, sometimes title deciders, but yesterday was a different affair with both teams not living up to their respective fans expectations, this season.

I thought especially in the first half we played far better than in recent weeks and yet clinical finishing was yet again our downfall.ย  De Gea is getting a lot of plaudits but to be honest every single shot was aimed right at him (bar our goal).

I doubt anyone can argue that the game could and should have been put to bed within the first half an hour. All the players seemed a lot more motivated than in recent weeks, despite the International break, and quite frankly United looked a very ordinary team.

When we are leading we can’t seem to hold onto a lead, and when invariably we miss chance after chance and go one behind we start chasing the game and leave ourselves extremely vulnerable for the opposition to invariably score.

To say United’s goal was bizarre would be an understatement, yet we still had over half an hour to regroup instead of going gung ho and practically in football terms, commit hari kiri.

Who does one blame, the manager or the players or the system or a combination of all three ?

The stats this season don’t make good reading which ever way you look at them but yesterday because of the injury to Wilshere and Szczesny our options were limited. I believe the substitution of Ramsey was correct, perhaps a little earlier would in hindsight have been better, and Santi is not in the best of form, though it was nice to see Giroud back, who scored the best goal of the match.

I must give credit to Chambers who came under a lot of criticism against Swansea. He had an excellent game for one who was never expected to play practically every game so far this season.

Welbeck is a work in progress, Sanchez oozes class but I feel the main talking point will be about Wilshere, who should have scored, could easily have seen red, and then got injured, but the main question is what is his most beneficial position in our team.

There are questions about the whole set up of the team.Our failure to score regularly, not being able to boss the midfield and lapses in defence . Quite honestly, this a game we really should have won.

Over to you Mr.Wenger ๐Ÿ™‚

Dortmund now becomes a must win game, for many many reasons..


173 Responses to It is what it is….. hari kiri

  1. kelsey says:

    Someone change the heading please.

  2. Kelsey

    I don’t disagree with one word of your post. Jacko showed some real fighting spirit yesterday. It could quite rightly have got him a red card, but it didn’t. His passing was a bit wayward but there was no questioning of his commitment. I think Ramsey losing possession was the mistake which led to Rooneys goal?

  3. MickyDidIt89 says:


    I thought you were going to say “new manager in before the window”

    ROLF ๐Ÿ™‚

  4. fatgingergooner says:

    I’d be happy with a point against Dortmund as it means we are through, but we definitely need a win for confidence.

    I don’t understand who is giving the orders to this team. Even at 1-0 down there was no reason we had to lose the game yesterday. It was mentioned in commentary, and Wenger said after the game, that we went all out attack even though there was 30 minutes left and we left Di Maria and RVP against Merts and Monreal.

    If Wenger is saying after the game that we shouldn’t have been so attacking, then why the f*** hasn’t anything been said during the game!?

    If it’s him trusting his players to manage the game correctly then he needs to take back control because our players are obviously thick as pig s***!

    It just seems like when the team is put under pressure, it’s only response is all out attack, even if the situation calls for something else.

  5. kelsey says:


    no it was you ๐Ÿ™‚

  6. kelsey says:


    I made that very point that we had over 30 minutes to regroup, but it became nearly panic.

  7. kelsey says:

    I presume Rasp is playing cricket in the rain and peaches is on baby sitting duty ๐Ÿ™‚

  8. Goongoonergone says:

    “Over to you Mr Wenger.”
    Grow a pair mate. It’s been over to Wenger for ten seasons now!
    There is only ONE to blame, the shameless, arrogant, opinionated, blustering fool masquerading as an Arsenal manager and secondly bloggers and AKBs licking his posterior.
    Your sentence should read:”Over for you Mr Wenger!”

  9. fatgingergooner says:

    I totally agree with you Kelsey. Even the commentators mentioned it.

    I’m not sure if the players felt it was a must win game and thought they needed 2 goals, or whether it’s the tension in the stands affecting the players, or whether they are just not a very bright set of lads when it comes to managing a game and tactics, or whether they are given so much freedom by Wenger to play attacking football that they revert back to that in time of need. I don’t know, but somebody should’ve taken control yesterday and told the lads to calm down and keep their shape. It didn’t happen and we conceded a goal that ultimately cost us at least a point.

  10. Malaysian gunner says:

    The so was right. Wenger has beaten MU only once in 15 games,an
    appalling record. SIF is the correct title. When you play the same style it’s inevitable the ball will break loose and so the ugly one went on to score. Shades of COsta’s goal and ones by Ronaldo and Drogba.How can these guys not score when given so much time and space.
    The fm better get a specialist defence coach. He will reject it because he has 50 years coaching experience. Then why the hell do Arsenal do always conced e soft goals.He is living on borrowed time.There are many capable guys in/out of contract who can improve the defence.

  11. Here’s a nice little rumour I’m just seen on French TV. Thierry Henry plans to retire this season from playing, he hopes to come back to Arsenal and take his coaching badges.

  12. The Cockie Monster says:

    Morning from me at my new website…..” Slit My Wrist.Com ” !. hahaha

    Cheers Kelsey…………………….What happened to the no holds barred post or should have that been two weeks ago ?. ๐Ÿ˜€

    I like this new era of un-expectancy, I can laugh instead of cry and my stress levels go down with every non-result !. I think I will move to N17 as for over 50 years they have had more Buddhists than Nepal in their submissive state !.

    Anyway, in my now calm state with loads of time on my hands for having to spend hours on the phone to The Samaritans, I thought I would look up some of the stats for all our EPL games and make of it what you will to is it relevant or not !.
    If after reading you have an urge to commit suicide, then you can find me on my new website as above or if you want to Bash a Buddhist you can hire the appropriate weaponry from Eddies….” Knuckle Dusters “R” Us ” shop !.

    Our Numbers First !.

    C Palace (H) : 2-1.
    Possession : 75%.
    Corners : 9/3.
    Shots : 14 (6 on target )…………4 (2)

    Everton (A) : 2-2
    Possession : 54%.
    Corners : 3/3.
    Shots : 13 (3)…………..8 (2)

    Leicester (A) : 1-1.
    Possession : 68%.
    Corners : 10/5.
    Shots : 24 (6)…………9 (3)

    Man City (H) : 2-2.
    Possession : 45%.
    Corners : 0/3
    Shots : 15 (6)………………….15 (8)

    A Villa (A) : 3-0.
    Possession : 71%.
    Corners : 5/5.
    Shots : 9 (3)………………..6(2).

    Spuds (H) : 1-1
    Possession : 69%.
    Corners : 15/5.
    Shots : 16 (6)………………..6 (4).

    Chelsea (H) : 0-2
    Possession : 53%
    Corners : 2/2
    Shots : 10 (0)………………….5 (3)

    Hull (H) 2-2.
    Possession : 66%.
    Corners : 10/0
    Shots : 25 (9)………………4 (4)

    Sunderland (A) : 2-0
    Possession : 57%
    Corners : 3/3
    Shots : 15 (5)…………….11 (3)

    Burnley (H) : 3-0
    Possession : 68%
    Corners : 18/1
    Shots : 32 (12)……………..6 (2)

    Swansea (A) : 1-2
    Possession : 52%
    Corners : 10/6
    Shots : 11 (5)………..12 (4)

    Manshafter Std (H) : 1-2
    Possession : 61%
    Corners : 11/5
    Shots : 23 (9)…………..12 (2).

    What to make of it ?.
    Only Mansour City beat us on stats !. We are rubbish at corners !. Great at Possession !. Teams only need a couple of shots on target to score against us, we need more shots per goals !. We are very vulnerable to counter attacks !. On paper stats wise we are great, on pitch we are average !. Do we need a DM Beast ?.
    I`m off to look at properties in Nepal17 !.

  13. Rasp says:

    Thanks Kelsey, I have done some work on your post.

    I haven’t changed my view of the game since last night and Arsene has not changed his approach to games for 5 years or more. As FGG says, if the players really don’t have the intelligence to know what to do when in a winning or a losing scenario, then the manager has to take responsibility and train them into a system that doesn’t allow us to keep making fundamental mistakes.

    The period of play leading up to their first goal was typical Arsenal. We had slowly compressed play in their half whilst not threatening their goal. Our midfielders were drawn closer together to execute intricate inter-passing moves. We lost possession and manu attacked at pace. Our defenders where running backwards on their heels not daring to close down for fear of being passed around. Our midfielders were not busting a gut to get back …….. blah, blah, blah…

    In his autobiography, SAF wrote of his disappointment that the thrill of playing Arsenal had been lost in the latter years because he knew exactly how we would play and it was too easy to counteract. He actually told his players not to get tight but to let us come on to them and go for interceptions and hit us on the break …. they did that twice yesterday.

  14. Rasp says:

    The great thing about the Invincibles was that they were not bothered if the opposition had possession of the ball because we had top class defenders and we knew we could punish the opposition with our greater pace and ability when we had the ball and most importantly there would be space to exploit. At one time, the stats showed that the Invincibles were more likely to score from an opposition’s corner than an Arsenal corner. As a team, we had the confidence to play without the ball. Possession was not the be all and end all because we defended as a team and we were able to make the possession we had more incisive.

  15. Malaysian gunner says:

    Wenger likes to play pretty weaving patterns. Unfortunately this doesn’t win games most of the time.I have been saying for years the gunners overpass playing into the hands of the enemy.
    If you look at videos of Arsenal and the top teams the pattern is the same. Its endless attacking with millions of acres for Rooney,Drobak and Ronaldo to plunder dozens of goal.
    I think Wenger better get his style to another team. He will sacked after a while.
    For the info of younger fans hara kiri is a form of Japanese suicide by plunging a knife into the abdomen/stomach.The samurai rather commit hara-kiri than be taken prisoner.

  16. VCC says:

    Nice report Crystals. Sorry to say “I told you so” but @ rasp 10:49… I have been banging this drum for a few years now. Arsenal/Wenger are so predictable Rasp = “they did that twice yesterday” ?? that’s exactly what teams have been doing to us for ages.

    Wenger has gone stale. He doesn’t get involved in tactics. Not only yesterday, but several times in a season we look school boy ish, especially with our defending.

    How many times have I wrote “same old, same old” ?

    Enough said.


    Cheers Kels

    Every two or three years I go to a game and gradually develop an aura of doom and death

    I started chatting to the bloke next to me, Ryan, lovely bloke, I suspect he may be an estate agent, and we both agreed we were all over them and it was just a matter of time

    After about 20 minutes however I started to get memory pangs of school bully Bateman sticking a pencil in an unwanted orifice.

    As these fears grew, Wilshere went clean through, everybody stood up in glorious celebration, and then the inevitable. Bateman was sitting on top of me crushing my Mars Bar.

    My metamorphosis was complete. Ryan turned round to me and began muttering about an equalizer but almost jumped out of his skin upon noticing my eyebrow hair had grown two inches and ears had turned cauliflower.

    “Err, err, dont worry Terry, an equalizers coming”

    “There’s no equalizer. Tomorrow you will rip off an old lady you bastard, selling her a badly structured house. It will collapse and you will be tried and convicted of murder spending the rest of your life living in fear of soap dropping and men who crave tobacco”

    As the second half wore on i tested Ryans nerves to breaking point, stating how his wife was so bored of his tales on stamp duty and three bedroom terraces she was probably having sex with some one less dull, probably an Accountant or Ed Milliband.

    He finally snapped “Your f*ucking mental mate, steward steward”

    This big burly steward approached me but I no longer cared “Throw me out, i dont give a shit. Tomorrow night, in your other job as west end security guard, whilst idling your time watching internet porn, a gang of thieves will break in and hold you hostage. One of them will recognize you from games at the Grove as the bloke who gets unnecessary erections picking on fans who sing, and kick the shit out of you”

    A policeman was called over and as the copper led me out Giroud scored. “That wont help either of us you jumped up f*uck. Its most likely your currently under investigation by the police complaints authority for acceptance of bribes. You will end up been thrown out of the force culminating in a nervous breakdown, spending the end of your days in an asylum complaining that your pyjamas have it in for you”

    It was one of those days.

  18. stevepalmer1 says:

    Morning all,
    A hurt supporter makes a very fair post writer, well done Kelsey, not many would have liked this write up.

    As Kelsey rightly said many things about this contest could and should have been handled better. We all have favourites that we like to see do well, and others that we expect very little from, But from the Manager i do expect him to be watching the game and assessing where our faults are and either changing players or adjusting the players positions.

    The first half was really one way traffic, Wenger’s assessment i imagine would have been, keep on doing much the same and one of the chances will eventually go in. Now although we were running the show, Wenger must have thought that the many chances we made were being wasted by powder puff scuffed shots, Danny Welbeck who i would imagine had points to prove, proved tp be infective when the big moment came, and just recently has hit more scuff shots than clean ones.

    Now our Danny is not alone, Ramsey Wilshere Gibbs and Whoever else would rather pass than take the shot that the crowd are screaming for. It does seem frustrating for me to see good build up play disintegrate by to many passes then a bad final pass.

    To see the likes of Wilshere running down blind alleys, while holding the ball to long, when a simple pass seems to be the easier, and this trend seems to have caught on with most of our players.

    I tend to feel that our players do not have faith in their ability to score goals, and opt for the easy get out of a pass, not many can hit powerful shots so more is my frustration that Podolski is sitting the pine. Now this fellow has a stinging shot, from what i have witnessed in the few games i have seen him, he likes to shoot and from any angle. Maybe the Manager feels that his workrate lets him down, so why keep him if he doesn’t want to play him.

    While Ramsey who has stated that he is still not fully fit, gets start after start, and who’s form has been way off the mark, and Santi Cazorla who also has had bad runs of games, makes me wonder why they get starts and Campbell and Gnabry are out in the cold.

    Mertsacker being caught out of position in every game has also been a factor in why our results have been poor, not just Merts but other defenders as well..

    I often wonder why a goalkeeper who stands six feet six or seven goes to ground at the first sign of an attack.Also how he comes out blindly when there is no need.

    I could of course go right through the team and pick things that they could and should do better, but that’s why we have a Manager. I am surprised that errors of this kind has not been nipped in the bud , but i keep on seeing the same errors and mistakes and i imagine i will see them for a while longer.

    A Managers job is to put the right players in the right positions, when he see’s them having a torrid time change them or the system to compensate after all its not rocket science,

    Rotate players, don’t wait till they are exhausted before we rest them, Out of form players need extra training and help building up confidence, playing players out of form is incompetent and unnecessary when players are busting a gut for first team action.

    Players who have had long term injuries need games in Reserves to get match fitness and form and not until they can last 90 minutes should they be allowed to play first team football. Rant over..

  19. kelsey says:

    I decided there was absolutely no point in slamming Wenger as otherwise I and a growing number of other fans will just be repeating what appears to be obvious in our deficencies, literally game after game.
    If AW can’t see it by now and has his favorites then for all concerned it is best he leaves at the end of the season.

    We are practically a third of the season through and even allowing for injuries he either can’t motivate the players, or there is unrest in the camp and that is not a good sign.

  20. Kelsey

    I didn’t see unrest in the ;camp’ yesterday. What I witnessed was a team on the verge of some great play. If Wengers tactics were to get Man U on the back foot, then it worked for the first 60 minutes. What the team then did was another story. The biggest problem yesterday was as most people have alluded to, an inability to score.

    If we can get that problem sorted, then we’re sorted.

    I’ve just been onto Cockies website, and would suggest people avoid it. I found myself getting a length of rope from the garage, some sleeping pills from the bathroom and my gun from the cupboard. But then I was spoilt for choice so did nothing.

  21. I watched the game unfold with a growing sense of dรฉjร  vu. Good passing, good movement, great energy and chance after chance createdโ€ฆand squandered.

    And then it happened! Possession lost in mid-field, panic in the defence, Szczesny charges out of goal and tries a weak punch, collides with Gibbs, shot going wide is deflected in by our left-back. 0 – 1.

    What do we do next? Try a bit of calm consolidation? No Chance! Itโ€™s headless chicken time again. Bomb forward and leave the back door wide open.

    Possession lost in mid-field, only this time there is no defence to panic, theyโ€™ve all gone awol. 0 – 2.

    Arsene Wenger, after the match, suggests our defending was a bit naรฏve!!! No s**t Sherlock!

    Wenger is the manager, the head coach, the chief bottle washer, he chooses which players to buy, he selects which players to play. He has been watching, along with the rest of us, his naรฏve defence chucking away winning positions for all of this season and much of last yet has done nothing to correct the situation.

    During yesterdayโ€™s kamikaze demonstration did we see him and his sidekick jumping up and down, on the touchline, yelling at his defenders to do their job and defend. Of course not. Did we see either our captain or vice captain calling for some defence? Of course not.

    A while ago AA were kind enough to publish a post of mine entitled โ€œArsene Jโ€™accuseโ€. Well now hereโ€™s another phrase for him, from the French revolution, โ€œA la lanterneโ€.

  22. Barumgooner says:

    Fair analysis of the game. We had the better players on the park, we had the better chances, we had more possession, we deserved to win. Ordinarily I would just put it down to misfortune that we squandered a few chances and then got caught out by a fluke goal but this season has been a disaster in every game. We have the most promising and talented squad of players we have had since we moved from highbury but they play with no belief and no direction. If Arsene has any love left for the club he would step down now. He has been a great servant and will be remembered fondly for the glory years and for maintaining a top four finish for many years with a very average group of players. But this is not an average squad, it’s a very very good squad who need a very very good manager.

  23. RA says:

    Well done, Kelsey, a very mature Post. ๐Ÿ™‚

    Actually you would have been forgiven if you had given it a bit more welly as regards the naรฏvetรฉ of the peculiarly predictable all out attacking response to going a goal down.

    The good points first. We were superb in the first 30 minutes in our approach attacking moves. Unfortunately, our finishing was profligate in its wastefulness. Arteta was splendid at times – and I am not his greatest fan.

    Then there was the bad.

    Well no, let;s get the woeful Dean and his assistant out of the way before that. Look at the blog 7 a.m. and you will see a video of the Manure goal.

    a) Fellatio was offside!
    b) Fellatio then clearly shoved Gibbs into Scezeney causing a severe collision, leaving Gibbs on the deck to deflect the ball into goal, and then force Chesser off injured.

    Absolutely appalling officiating. However that was par for the course and is no excuse for what came next.

    I am either prescient or have become cynical after so many disappointments, but I turned to my friends and said – “We will go all out on attack, leave ourselves open at the back, and lose 0:3 from breakaway goals. [If Di Maria had scored in a one on one breakaway I would have been spot on].

    Rasp has said it all really in his comments, but I was appalled to see not just Monreal but Mertesecker attacking in the Manure half after we went behind. For the Rooney goal at least Monreal stayed back, but look at the replay — where was our greyhound Per? Hopelessly out of position in —- the Utd half.

    The players may have changed over the years, but the game was predictable – we attack – they hang back – we lose the ball – and Ronald and Rooney whizz upfield and score. Oops not Ronald — select your player – on this occasion it was Di Maria and Rooney.

    As i said, change the names but the outcome was the same. Sanchez lost the ball on the edge of the Manure penalty area, it goes to Fellatio, up to Di Maria and onto Rooney with only Monreal at home to be bypassed.

    Surprise? No. Seen it all before — many, many times — with Arsene the only constant over the years he must put his hand up for this annual sucker punch.

  24. Barumgooner says:

    Wenger has lost his edge, he doesn’t seem to be able to inspire his players or influence the way they play. His tactics (or lack of) are so predictable that other teams know exactly what to expect before they start and whatever happens during the game nothing will be changed or altered. If a manager cannot inspire, help or influence a team he is no longer useful. Regardless of his past successes.

  25. RA, yes Dean was woeful, he should have sent Wilshere off for attempting to butt Fellaini, at least he wouldn’t then have been on the pitch to be injured by a wild tackle from a United player, un-punished of course.

  26. I am not sure whether mr. Wenger reads blogs and listen to pundits just to get a different perspective on things.

  27. kelsey says:


    By saying “unrest in the camp” I mean players like Rosicky and Podolski have publically stated that they are puzzled why they aren’t getting playing time and they have a point when others who aren’t performing well consistently always are on the team sheet, and I haven’t even mentioned Campbell.

  28. kelsey says:

    It’s ironic that we made three very good purchases in Sanchez (probably the best in years), Debuchy, who until injured looked a very capable replacement for Sagna, and Chambers who was slowly meant to be bedded in. Ospina is a bit of a mystery.

    We have potentially 5 players who could all play for England at the same time yet as a team we are totally disjointed.

  29. VCC says:

    Well said Norfolk & RA.. Everyone and his dog can see this, all but the AKB brigade.

    I’ve sent a bouquet of flowers to Arsene Wenger…..perhaps he might now be able to smell the roses.

    Wake up man…wake up.

  30. kelsey says:

    AKB=Arsene Knew Best ๐Ÿ™‚

    It’s not going to happen but to save humiliation AW should go by the end of the year to save grace whilst we still have fond and great memories of the man.

    I don’t want to see him humiliated.If it’s a caretaker manager than so be it, it’s happened before.

  31. Malaysian gunner says:

    Rasp said the rf knew how the gunners would play.Wenger has been playing the same style all these years. No wonder his record
    against the top teams is poor.
    That show how far the gunners have declined all these years.I am afraid Wenger will cause irreversible damage to Arsenal if he stays on.

  32. Shard says:


    Seen it all before. Yes. But does it always work out this way, or does the result go for us too when we do that? That’s a question I don’t have an answer to.

    Also, our panic has a lot to do with our low confidence. Our finishing might have something to do with that too. A lack of confidence is not the same as lack of motivation. Our players don’t lack motivation as many seem to allege.

    In terms of ability and chances of victory, we would have won that game. Sometimes it just doesn’t happen. Wenger now seems to be a lightning rod every week, and sure, hiring another manager might solve some issues we have. Others will crop up though, and on balance, it might not be the right thing to do.

    In any case, I cannot abide this weekly speculation on Wenger’s ability or otherwise to make us ‘progress’ (a vague word that) I was very frustrated by the result, and in certain instances by the players, but generally satisfied that we played well, without enjoying some luck, which is sometimes the only difference between winning and losing.

    In larger terms, I believe that anyone who truly believes Wenger has done a fantastic job over the past few years, should have no problem in giving him a reasonable length of time to make use of the money. A weekly sharpening of the executioner’s axe is not it. Despite all the know it all statements, no one knows how it’ll work out in the future, with or without Wenger. I can accept wanting him gone, but not a weekly, if not daily, reiteration of that view. What’s the use of pointing out facts every day to ‘prove’ a point of view, which really just shows a confirmation bias?


    Great comment Shard

    Though I wouldn’t bother if I was you mate. I got a call from my moaning brother last night saying that Wenger slaughtering had cured his erectile dysfunction.

    Cant argue with that

  34. IanRealGunner says:

    Fellaini’s shove on Gibbs was a particularly cowardly act which has ended in one injury but could have been two. Reminded me of the Belgian player who shoved Cahill into Hart a few years back which also caused a serious injury. Media won’t be particularly bothered by that though – they will focus on Wilshere’s head to head (head to chest) with Fellaini instead

  35. RC78 says:

    Lessons learned:

    1. Metersacker is really having a poor season and we are paying the lack of replacement for Vermaelen
    2. We are really paying the lack of DM
    3. Wilshere is a wasteful
    4. Giroud can score some screamers…
    5. Rooney loves to score against us
    6. We re no EPL contenders and it seems we have regressed despite our acquisition
    7. AW’s credit among the fan is very thin at the moment…
    8. The team lacks confidence and does not defend as a block

    Gibbs was having a good game until the goal conceded…

  36. The Cockie Monster says:

    I hold my hands up !…..for the last 3 seasons I unsuccessfully predicted that we would not be in the top 4 and this season with having some genuine world class players thought we would walk 4th place, so it`s my fault we have our worst start under Wenger !.
    You will be glad to know that I have changed my prediction for this season to 4th from bottom and will now probably be the most average team to win the CL !.

    Since coming to AA, I have become a great football expert and I owe it all to you AAers. With my new abilities, I have found out something interesting that will probably win us the league if put into place !.
    It`s rather quite simple. If we`re all honest, we don’t expect to lose any games do we !, we expect to beat all the teams apart from Mansour City, Manshafter Std and Chavs !. We probably expect to draw away to the Bindippers, Totnumb and Everton but beat them at home. All the rest we expect to beat home and away, so that only leaves us to park the bus against Mansour City, Manshafter and Chavs to gain six draws !. That’s gives us 90 points, a points tally which has only been bettered on about 4 occasions, so there`s a high percentage of winning the league and a 100% top 3 spot !.
    So there it is, we park the bus in just 6 games and trophies will follow !.
    Alright I lied, I`m no football expert and my only input to Arsenal winning is my superstition expertise !………….I always count backwards from one hundred to zero when waiting in Transplants wardrobe for him to leave for a game !…..yesterday I was put off my counting by George the next door neighbour builder !….he told me to count in my mind as I was putting him off with his reading instructions of his luminous condom backwards !.
    However, even though not being an expert on football, it is plain to see that it`s not a coincidence that we have failed to beat Mansour City, Manshafter Std and Chavs for 2 years 7 months and counting !. You cannot play them teams with the same tactics as you play Burnley !.

    Horses for courses .

    Dortmund is not a must win game !…….we have 2 games to get 1 point to qualify !

    Catch you later, someone`s going out !……..100….99….98…..97….96…..

  37. RC78 says:

    I agree…you can also play your team in a iffrent set-up against different teams..I think that you have a lot more chances of winning with two strikers against Hull / Stoke than playing one lone striker…for example…Same vs City or Chelsea, you want to beef up your midfield…and play to neutralize and counter…

    For example: Ask Ox and Sanchez to play on the wings but to focus first on defending well…and to counter…against City it could work…

    PiG – Debs, BFG, Kos, Gibbs – Ox, Chambers, Arteta, Sanchez -Ramsey – Giroud

  38. Eddie says:

    RC78 – I always thought that Koz is making Per look good

  39. fatgingergooner says:

    Kos makes our whole defence look good. His pace is what gets us out of jail on so many occasions and allows our full backs to bomb on. Without it, we just look fragile.

  40. RC78 says:

    Eddie – could not agree with you more. Honestly, Kos was Top 3 defender in EPL last year and we are missing him horribly…

    Looking at our defense, we would not be off the scale if we went out and bought a Miranda or Garay. These guys would really bring in this grit and toughness we lack at the moment. Garay would be great. 20 Mln – much better investment than Hummels in my opinion.

    Add a little Lichtensteiner and Bender to the mix and we are happy bunnies.

  41. Eddie says:

    Liverpool have just done the Arsenal trick – better team, all over Palace and lose.

  42. Eddie says:

    The speed of counter attacking is the key for me. Most teams as soon as they get the ball all run like bats out of hell to that spot they can score from. I watched City doing it very effectively. Pool and Arsenal don’t

  43. leo1281 says:

    The defending it’s been so awful that it didn’t surprise me to see the team conceding those stupid goals.
    But what really caught my attention yesterday was the mess the attack was, I mean, Utd defense is a joke and against Arsenal they seemed like the Italian national team. I just wonder what Wenger tells his forwards: “go” “attack a lot” “take the ball into the net”?

  44. RC78 says:

    Disagree with me all you want but one has to admit that the team is more compact with Koscielny and Giroud in the team…I am not saying that because I am French…The numbers are there…We concede less goals and win more games with these two in the team…

    I think that AW who is an avid data man will bring back OG in the team once fully fit as a starter and Wellbeck will be a good back-up.

    Here is the business that AW should do in Winter:

    – Tie up Lichtensteiner for July (FREE)
    – Bring in Garay from Russia (20 Mln) as of Jan
    – Tie up Bender or L. Gustavo for July
    – Agree to sell Ozil to Munich for 30 Mln Pounds this winter since Shaqiri is leaving
    – Sell Podolski OR Campbell this winter
    – Loan out Sanogo to Hull or to Championship club and same for Akpom
    – Tell Flaminim Diaby, Rosicky, Monreal to look for a new club in the summer
    – Sell Miyachi
    – Loan an experienced DM (Mikel or Leiva)
    – Enter negotiations with AC Milan for De Sciglio

    January team:
    PiG – Debs, Garay, Kos, Gibbs – Ox, Mikel – Ramsey – Walcott, Giroud, Sanchez

    August team:
    PiG – Lichtensteiner, Garay, Kos, Gibbs – OX, Bender – Ramsey – Walcott, Giroud, Sanchez

    Ospona – Debs, BFG, Chambers, De Sciglio – Wilshere, Arteta – Cazorla – Gnabry, Wellbeck, Campbell

  45. Shard says:

    Wasn’t Van Persie supposed to terrorise Monreal in this game? Where was he and how was he kept so quiet if our defense is so terrible?

    It’s only about a few moments, and the moment that changed the game yesterday was when Fellaini’s shove caused us to concede. Until then, poor finishing or not, we had the game under control both offensively and defensively.

    Chelsea have conceded 11 goals to our 15. They’ve also scored 30 goals to our 20. Yes having a solid defensive foundation helps their attack as well, but they’ve also had more than their fair share of penalty and offside decisions going their way, both in defense and attack. If we had that sort of luck, we’d be better off in terms of points too. Think Everton’s offside goal which followed a foul on Mertesacker. (Yes included poor defending from Chambers) Non given penalty against Chelsea which would have made it 1-1, or indeed the red card not given to Cahill early on. Non penalty call against Spurs (and potentially a problem with the GDS) and of course the non penalty yesterday, which no one seems to be talking about, and the push by an offside Fellaini.

    Note that I don’t expect all calls to go our way, but these are only calls which went wrongly against us, and none that I can recall which went in our favour causing us to win. How is this going to ‘even itself out?’ These alone are potentially worth 8-10 points. It adds up, in terms of mental effort, physical effort, and affects the story of the season.

  46. arnie says:

    Well done Kelsey. ๐Ÿ™‚

    back to sconny Botland, any news? anyone sacked or signed, any exciting victories. oh dear! same old, same old!

    or was it? come on all, yesterday was a freak result. we played better than I have seen in some time. but we lost, through sheer ineptitude in front of our goal and theirs. Nothing that we have not seen before, and not an ill that cannot be rectified.

    it happens once in a while. so be it. if we are more lucky in our cup games, FA Cup and most importantly CL, I for one will be happy.

    Yes, Dortmund is certainly not a must in, but we need to play well. Some confidence required. We are getting there. Giroud is back, and truth be said, we have missed him dearly. Same with Theo. COYG. On with the show. ๐Ÿ™‚

  47. RockyLives says:

    Good report Kelsey
    There’s no doubt that our patience is being tested.

    But thinking calmly about yesterday’s game, it was a freak result. Utd were pants and we outplayed them for most of the match.

    The big negative (for me) is the way our tactical discipline went out the window at 0-1.

    At one point, watching The BFG surging forward in attack yet again, I said to my son: “just watch – they’ll score on the break any minute now” – and they did.

    That’s the one thing that bugs me about AW – we keep making that mistake and I can’t understand why he hasn’t dealt with it.

  48. arnie says:

    a 20-goal-a-year chappie may be surplus to requirements in some quarters. if you have a cannibal or a monkey-boy in your midst. perhaps! but not for us.

    good news Giro is back and back to scoring ways. on with the show! ๐Ÿ™‚

  49. arnie says:

    agreed, Rocky, a major source of dis-satisfaction and frustration indeed. I was getting nervous the longer our domination went together with the inability to score. ๐Ÿ˜ฆ

  50. RA says:

    Hi Rocket,

    It was a freak result, and Manure should never have had a point – let alone 3.
    The problem is that we have had a number of freak results over recent years, particularly again Manu, that are pretty identical.

    If you read my earlier comment, I think you will find that we are in agreement – albeit differently worded. ๐Ÿ™‚

    Like you, I do not know, or understand, why Arsene has not ‘fixed’ this perpetual tactical blunder – we have done it often enough.

    In a post game interview, AW said it was ‘mystifying’ the way the team responded with all out attack after going just a goal down, with plenty of time left.

    What was more mystifying was that he did not know that that was exactly the way they would play.

    I do not try to hide my appreciation of the wonderful era Arsene has brought us, and the difficulties he has overcome in keeping us punching above our weight, but if he was my uncle I would suggest that he looks at the situation and considers what is best for himself, and the great legacy he has built up.

    That is not a knee jerk reaction, but a realisation that I suspect there will be many more of these ‘freak’ results over the next season or two, and each one will heap more opprobrium and vilification on his head, much of it undeserved.

    I care for Wenger as a man, and I also care for the club and the team, and these sentiments are not mutually exclusive.

  51. RC78 says:

    I think that we are back to 2012 defensively when we were awful…Then last year, we did well in most games (except vs big boys where we got mauled and humiliated) and now it s back to frailty. What s going on really?

  52. arnie says:

    freak results happen, and they even out approximately.

    maybe it is the sadist in me, but the game yesterday was more enjoyable than the FA Cup triumph long time back. when was it, 2004 perhaps?

    Yes the loss yesterday was frustrating and disappointing, but we played a great game. ๐Ÿ™‚

  53. kelsey says:


    with regards to goals scored and conceded compared to Chelsea to me is irrelevant.We are 15 points away from the top and 9 points away from the bottom club.

    Referee decisions is the old chestnut, a favorite on Untold Arsenal.These things balance themselves out.Was Wilshere lucky not to be sent off,it was a head butt or at least allowing for height difference an attempted head butt and there was contact. You have been brain washed by Mr Attwood ๐Ÿ™‚

    Van Persie had a poor game as he was stuck out on the wing, in total he had 12 touches,but was subbed.

    LVG is no mastermind and doesn’t know his best team as yet.United a really a poor side, and for that reason alone we should have beaten them.

    We are carrying a number of players who just aren’t good enough, a few who through age have lost pace, others who are completely out of form, two or three who have a history of being injury prone, and a few who are young and still learning.

    I have said for two years that our keeper still has a lot to learn, he does have age on his side, but needs a mentor, Cech would be ideal.A good keeper is worth several points a season.

    In all competitions this season one can count on one hand when we have played well for a whole game or part of a game.

    That is regression from last season, though the signs were there then.
    I honestly don’t think AW will ever change,he is too set in his ways and these are all high earners at the club and frequently played out of position,which doesn’t help our cause.
    We need a new man with fresh ideas who can motivate this team otherwise star players will leave.

  54. arnie says:

    2005, not 2004. ๐Ÿ˜›

  55. kelsey says:


    was it a freak result, what about all the others this season. We can’t hold on to a lead but invariably we see the same most weeks where we have a high amount of possession without a break through only for the opposition to score.

    Then we chase a game and the timing of our subs is very questionable,hoping to win or draw.

    One has to put this down to the manager and God knows what Bould does.

  56. arnie says:

    true Kelsey, we were involved in two two freak results so far this season. Yesterday we were by far the best team and lost, against Anderlecht away it was the other way round.

    but despite that we are there or thereabouts. something is wrong in terms of strategy, none of us know exactly what or indeed why.

    but what matters perhaps most is getting it right in the important games. yesterday was one, and we lost, but many more to come. hopefully ….

  57. Shard says:


    About Wilshere’s attempted headbutt, read my part about it all adding up in terms of mental (and physical) effort. Would Wilshere have reacted that way if he had got the decision for the penalty, or indeed if Fellaini wasn’t rewarded by the referee for just falling down?

    Refereeing decisions absolutely do not even out and I am constantly amazed by the fact that football fans make all sorts of excuses for incorrect game changing decisions, leave alone the little ones affecting the flow of the game. In no other sport have I come across such an attitude of the fans. It is the only sport where those in charge can say they actively favour continuing with an error strewn system because it adds excitement, and stay in control. They also have fans echoing this, or burying the issue under club rivalries or past incidents.

    It matters not one bit whether Arsenal suck at defending or are awesome. They should have got a free kick for Fellaini’s push yesterday, if not an offside flag, and that specific goal would never have happened. Even if Arsenal get a go ahead goal gifted to them at some point, it will be at the cost of another team, at another time and in another context. This whole it evens itself out business is nonsense. It doesn’t.

    Personally, I don’t care whether Arsenal win a trophy or not. I enjoy when Arsenal win, I don’t like it when we lose, but what I really want is to watch a proper game of football unsullied by poor/biased refereeing. If Arsenal fans weren’t constantly complaining about something or the other, I wouldn’t particularly get upset about Arsenal getting screwed by referees. Like I said, I don’t particularly care. I do care that Arsenal get the blame for things which are even beyond their control, with the demand that they overcome everything that is thrown at them, whether reasonable or not. Or worse, the pretense that it never even happened or is immaterial.

  58. Shard says:

    Plus, about complaining about refereeing decisions, why is it that Arsenal fans find that such a distasteful thing to do? ManU fans and manager can complain about a referee who incorrectly awarded a penalty to the opposition, but also allowed a handball goal for them in the same game, and it’s alright. Hell they woulod complain about an incorrect offside in a game they got two incorect penalties in their favour. Liverpool fans will complain constantly about something or the other. But Arsenal fans don’t.

    I used to like that actually. I put it down to us being more honest, in that we wouldn’t blame the referee just for the sake of it. But seeing as now it’s come to blaming everything on our own team regardless of anything the referee does, I think honesty has nothing to do with it. It’s either masochism, or being too image conscious/worried about what others, and mostly the media, will say.

    That’s another thing. Commentators in the NBA, for example, are free to call it as they see it. They see a bull**** call and they’ll say it was such, while football commentators seem to toe the party line about how awesome referees are and how difficult a job they have, thereby excusing, ignoring and effectively compounding the problem.

  59. arnie says:


    I hear this ref thing a lot and the injuries, etc. the Wenger will never change is much the same. All of these may be true, but these are regressive thoughts that always put us on the back foot.

    when do we begin to say, look we try to play a good game, and a different game, and we are hard working and fight for each other. despite the world and half of Mars conspiring against us, we are going to make it happen? ๐Ÿ™‚

  60. kelsey says:

    Sorry Shard

    you have selective memory. just go back to our last game.Was Monreal lucky not to be red carded.or at least to have given away a penalty.

    If I really thought there was a conspiracy against Arsenal and no other team, I would agree with you, but I don’t.

    The inconsistency amongst referees is shown week after week in any game you care to watch.That is the real problem.

  61. chas says:

    Vertonghen at it again.
    Spuds 1 down.
    The Hull player gets fouled twice, Vertonghen sticks his knee in and then falls over like a baby. Result sending off.
    Spuds win 2-1.

  62. kelsey says:

    Anyway I have to watch Strictly come Dancing, which starts in a minute. Nice chatting with you ๐Ÿ™‚

  63. Gรถรถner In Exile says:

    Well done Kelsey
    For me the comment that most people should pay attention to is Cockies stats overload.

    How come a team who is so clueless going forward has so many shots, how come a team so hopeless at the back gives up so few shots in comparison?

    What should we focus on in training? FINISHING!!

  64. chas says:

    That’s a fair assessment in your post, kelsey.

    A United second was always on the cards once we decided to go gung-ho after conceding such an unfortunate first.

  65. Shard says:


    I say that all the time. I don’t even particularly care if it happens, just that we give it our all. I don’t think results offer the best prism to judge performances even if it is a results oriented business.

    But I do care that the refereeing factor is ignored, or indeed scoffed at. Not necessarily just as an Arsenal fan, but as a football fan. By far the sickest I’ve felt is in 2008 when I wanted ManU to win against Wigan so they’d win the title ahead of Chelsea. I got the result I wanted, but Steve Bennett gifted it to them, and that is something which disgusted me.

    All sports have bad decisions and fans complaining about them. They will never be eliminated. But fans can at least agree that they want the correct decision to be made, and the authorities take steps to cut the errors out.

    Except in football where fans are fed a maxim of ‘it all evens itself out out’ , fear mongering about technology, and a refusal to even acknowledge there is a problem by the authorities, media, and fans. The referees get no help except being treated as infallible beings who get the call right 99% of the time according to their own organisation, which no one questions. This is prime ground for corruption and I don’t like it impinging on what is supposed to be an escapist activity. There’s enough of that in life anyway.

  66. arnie says:

    fair enough, Shard. ๐Ÿ™‚

  67. Shard says:


    I don’t care whether there is a conspiracy against Arsenal. Even though I think Arsenal are heavily punished, I do not have a conclusion as to why. I do care that inconsistent/biased/incompetent refereeing is ignored as a factor in deciding games, and that this is allowed to continue without protest.

    I’ll repeat, refereeing errors do not even themselves out. Not only for Arsenal, but anyone, whether they be for them or against them, errors have a significant effect on the table, and even more so at this level, when the margins are so small.

  68. Eddie says:

    good post BTW Kelsey, I share your pain
    If you listened to Pool supporters tonight with Liverpool, Rogers, Ballotelli beeped off, you’d think they are talking about Arsenal

  69. chas says:

  70. Eddie says:

    Dean has NEVER given a penalty to Arsenal at the Emirates, never

  71. Shard says:


    Though I think that was at Old Trafford, the one I remember with Dean is when Arshavin thumped the ball in from outside the penalty box. Prior to that he had both feet taken out from under him in the penalty box, following which Carrick (i think) pushed the ball further away with his hand, and Dean standing right on top of the incident said no penalty.

  72. Gรถรถner In Exile says:

    This is a summation on BBCSport, reckon it’s quite accurate:

    “United’s second goal was much more familiar to Arsenal fans, with their team being caught up the pitch and exposed on the break – but at least this time it was because they were chasing the game.

    Wenger’s team have obvious shortcomings but they were not behind this defeat and his side did not get what they deserved against United. Instead it was just one of those nights.”

    Except I think we did get what we deserved, because it’s up to us to put the ball in the back of the net when we are on top.

  73. Eddie says:

    spot on GiE

    And about Dean’s non-penalties – we shouldn’t really complain, Jack should have been sent off, maybe twice

  74. fatgingergooner says:

    Regarding the counter attack, its difficult to do it when the other team are just sitting back. They know we are a dangerous side so they are not just going to come onto us so we can pick them off on the counter. Unfortunately, we dont seem to have the same respect for other teams and this is why we keep getting done by the likes of United, Chelsea and City.


    Attack?, Defend?, change style, finish better etc, it will make no difference

    Yesterday, chas posted a chart which showed the net transfer spend and how it correlates to wining the title. For me, it sums up all the arguments.

    We are very very unlikely to win the league or be better than the likes of Chelsea and City in the next couple of years.

    it dosnt matter who the manager is. Wenger? Morinio?, the Dali Lama. None of them could win the league.

    Chelsea and City currently have the better players.

    However, chas chart does show a narrowing of the finances. FFP and our increased revenues are beginning to have an impact, but its unlikely we will see its full effect until Arsenes tenure is up.

    Thats Wengers legacy. He will have left his successor a club who can compete for the top prizes

    In football terms, Arsene is like Moses. Near the end scorned and slighted by the masses who decided to worship some weird goat, but he will lead us to the promised land.

    The Ghosts of the Thirties are Stirring

  76. Gรถรถner In Exile says:

    FGG I just don’t know how you counteract that, we could respect them, i.e. don’t go on to them, but then I just think we will end up with a lot of draws, we have to force the issue. Against the big sides at home I still think it is required, where perhaps we need to smarten up is away from home as coming away with a point is better than none, maybe at home too, but United were there for the taking on Saturday and if we hadn’t gone for the jugular I reckon there would have been just as many complaints saying we bottled it.

    But these stats make interesting reading, second only Manchester City in shots taken per game, least shots conceded per game across whole league.


    Thats not the reason we keep getting done by the likes of City/Utd/Chelsea, Ginge

    If we sit back against those teams we will still get done.

    This talk of over attacking etc is just a means for people to bash Arsene.

    What ever our approach the end result is the same, we will finish 3rd at best or fourth.

    We need FFP to keep working, add as much quality as our finances allow, and keep the players we want by offering long term contracts.

    We will get there, but having three teams in the same league as you who possess such a massive advantage is currently to much.

    i am often told I am deluded but if thats the case, then so are the historical facts and evidence.

  78. Rasp says:

    It appears the ghosts of the thirties will have us finishing 3rd then TMHT? Well how do you factor in teams like Athletico Madrid and Dortmund who manage to get the better of the top teams on their leagues – ok, I know Dortmund aren’t doing well domestically this season

  79. Rasp says:

    The problem lies fundamentally in our style of play. Swansea and Southampton have spent a fraction of Arsenals transfer dealings


    I dont Rasp.

    Firstly the premier league is the most financialy doped league on the planet.

    Secondly, Dortmund and Athleticos acheivements are once in a life time successs and i am absolutly delighted for them

    Thirdly, swansea and Saints have not finnished above Arsenal or ever qualified for champions league

    The most solid comparison should be made were most factors are relevant, i.e. in the league that you actully play in

    If you wish to argue against historical fact and evidence Rasp, that is your choice.

  81. Shard says:


    Exactly. In the larger scheme of things, nothing will overcome that gap, though of course now and then you get some exceptions such as Atletico Madrid or Dortmund, or indeed Montpellier, winning domestic titles. But they are exceptions. Anomalies, that some clubs base their approach on. Arsenal base their approach on building themselves up to a point where winning is not an anomaly, though of course it isn’t entirely in their control.

    But I believe we are closer than it might appear, and I also believe that it is Arsene Wenger’s idiosyncrasies which so infuriate people which actually stand the best chance of overcoming that gap. What’s the point of being like everyone else, but poorer?

    Wenger doesn’t rely on tactics we are told. Instead he relies on players to explore the limits of their capabilities while providing them with a loose structure. That structure has been strong (and flexible) enough to keep us at the bare minimum of 4th all these years, but has lacked the players to rise up to 1st (His refusal to buy players unlikely to achieve that also infuriates some people). A more rigid structure might have had a few better years, but also would not have maintained the lower limit that was essential for us.

    Perhaps with better players now, we can create a team that thrives on a weaker structure. That has almost always been Wenger’s way and without it we wouldn’t have seen the kind of football the Invincibles played, nor seen players like Fabregas or Van Persie come up later. I’m willing to believe we’ll see it again before Wenger retires. But even if it doesn’t work, his legacy, as you say, is secure, along with our future.

  82. Rasp says:

    Hmm you seem to have lost your sense of humour terry? You can convince yourself of anything you want, I am not convinced at all. We have a team that is currently less than the sum of the group of very talented players in the squad, we are underperforming and that is the opposite of the way it should be


    I hope your right Shard, and it might happen near the end of Arsenes tenure, but I doubt it.

    Its easy to beat Arsene with the same old sticks, but the reality is the only clubs who consistently finish above him are those with the greater historical financial power.

    How many players do City and Chelsea have in there 20 man squad Wwheo were relative unproven talents?

    Ime sure five years ago arsene would have enjoyed the luxary of buying big stars, instead we have the historical legacy of Gibbs/Chesney/Wilshere/Ramsey/Chamberlin etc,

    The simple truth is that Arsenals squad has developed over the last several years on a weaker financial basis relative to its rivals in an era were money talks.

    The only reason ime going in to one is that Arsene needs defending. People can have a pop at him if they want but I wont let them do so without response.

  84. Gรถรถner In Exile says:

    Atletico may find themselves in FFP trouble although a lot of their players last season were loan deals so I’m not sure how they are added. They also took advantage of a blip year from Barca and Madrid as both had new managers who took time to find their stride (or not at all in Barcas case).

    Dortmund are very similar to us except they only really have one rival, but that rival has bought all their best players over the last few years, because of a hugely disparate wage system which Munich can afford. When Klopp took over Dortmund were struggling financially (still are) due to buying the CL title, and had to build a side that got to where they did. But it took time, and patience he put together a team oh hungry youngsters and got them to run through brick walls. But they couldn’t stop those players being attracted by money elsewhere and so the bubble is bursting, especially as FFP demands they live within their income, something they weren’t doing before it came in, and the reason so many have left.

  85. The Cockie Monster says:

    Get in there Stretch !……if anyone is going to defend the honour of Wenger and guard his zipper to the death, I choose you !. hahaha

  86. Shard says:


    I see Dortmund’s recent success as similar to what we achieved in the early 2000s, with ManU a major financial rival in the league, but no one else who could outspend us.

    At the time however, clubs like Spurs, Liverpool and Everton had roughly the same financial status as we did. We’re now in the top 5 or 6 clubs in financial terms. This is no accident. The only thing that stopped us from winning more titles was that the money from Abramovich and others came in at just the time when we had our funds tied up in the stadium. But the club have grown and are now in a much better position than they would have been otherwise, regardless of whether they’d won a title or two in the interim.

  87. Rasp says:

    Dortmund has lost a lot of it’s best players in recent years – and they still gave us a footballing lesson when we played them – it wasn’t even close, we were second best by some margin.

    Terry I really think you should examine who or what you think you are being loyal to. We’ve heard such a range of excuses lately from refereeing bias, to it’s the supporters fault. Ramsey and Jack have been scapegoated for the loss to Manu – but you refuse to even consider that the manager could have done better?


    Rasp, we have had these debates before. Of course we are currently under acheiving but by the end of the season were will be?

    The outcome is uncertain but going by the past 18 years we have always finished roughly were we should have.

    As for my sense of humour? Sometimes, and I dont include you in this, you have to put it aside when others consistenly fail to show theres.

  89. Rasp says:

    Ok Terry, no problem, it’s nothing worth falling out over ๐Ÿ˜›


    Rasp my friend, I have never blamed refs or the support and fully support the view that (in my opinion) Arsene has made tactical and choice of playing personal blunders.

    However, overall i do not believe these perceived mistakes are any different to what all managers have to go through

    Football is about opinions. I am just giving mine.

  91. The Cockie Monster says:

    Rasp !. I watched ( just caught a glimpse ) a European football show on BT Sport earlier ( Flamini was a guest ) and they said that Dortmunds football is currently more suited to the CL, in that they play better teams and counter attack them, whereas in Germany at the moment, they are the ones being counter attacked !.
    On your side referring to the Dortmund game is that they had as many if not more first choice players missing than we had.

  92. Shard says:


    I think Wenger’s priority is to win the CL rather than the PL. It is very very difficult to marry the two successes together because the Premier League is so different to the rest of Europe. The refereeing, the tempo, the lack of a winter break etc.

    As to your point of historical legacy. I agree, which is why I also feel he needs time to get the money to have an effect on the field. Even teams like Chelsea and City needed 3 years to start winning. But our historical legacy of Gibbs etc isn’t half bad. Consistent top 4 finishes isn’t something to be sniffed at. With the likes of Ozil, and Sanchez joining in, I believe in the next two years we’ll see the culmination of Wenger’s latest, and probably last team. I just think he deserves that time, not only because of everything he’s done, but also because it simply takes time.


    No Rasp, its not. hahaha

    By the way ime going to the Dortmund game with Total Arsenal so if your around and having a drink, let me know and I will pop in and buy you a beer.

  94. Rasp says:

    I’m hoping to go Terry and it would be a pleasure to have a beer with you ๐Ÿ™‚

  95. Shard says:

    Dortmund are in a different phase of their team building than we are. They have peaked and are on the way down (can Klopp maintain their standards to the level that Arsene maintained ours?)

    We are recovering from many years of rebuilding on the cheap, and are only now on the way up. At the moment, Dortmund are probably just about a better side than us. That doesn’t mean that the relative strength of the clubs is the same.

  96. The Cockie Monster says:

    Be careful of the AA league of accountants !…… fact, accounts, estate agents, money lenders etc` are all being brought under the same umbrella and the FSA will now be known as the FFA……the Fiscal Fcuking Association !……….they will still be known as robbing bastards though !. hahaha


    Cheers Cornwall

    Does this mean youve now come round to my way of thinking and i should send you that effigy of Arsene I was telling you about?

    You know, the one with that special hole in it. hahaha

    Great comments Shard

  98. GIE,

    You cant do the same thing in all games, but we seem to think that we can. Some teams are there to be countered, some are there to be attacked, but none of this matters when it comes to Arsenal because we are always the same no matter who we play. The only difference i ever see with our side is without the ball in that sometimes we play a high press and sometimes we dont.

    When we have the ball though we are always the same, get as many men forward as possible and leave ourselves open to the counter.

    Do we need to have both full backs up the pitch on attacks? Why not have the opposite full back tuck in and make it a back 3? Its all about balance, and i dont think ours is right compared to the players we have on the field.

    A perfect example is when we went 1 down yesterday. Did having 8 players forward help us create more chances than earlier in the game when only 6 or 7 were attacking? I dont think it did, if anything it congested the attacking areas and made it more difficult for us to create space. The result of all this was that we were light at the back and conceded again.

    Like you say, im not sure how we get around this other than to get better defenders in the team ie Kozzer and Debuchy. Wenger will not change what he believes in so i guess we just have to hope we can score more goals until players return.

  99. The Cockie Monster says:

    Stretch !…….I dare you to spend the whole match with Total praising Jose, especially if it`s going tits up !…..” Jose would have done this….Jose would have done that ! “. hahaha

  100. arnie says:

    Nice discussion all. And Shard, top comment @ 9:15.

    It seems like continuing to harp the same note. But, I am personally glad that we, led by Arsene, try to do things differently. I know many are not convinced that we do things differently, but I see plenty of differences.

    Many would also be happy if we followed the oiler bandwagon to try and buy success, or to play in a specific way that is in fashion at this time. I am just glad we are different.

    We do our own stuff, and we are not too bad. Nothing tells me we do not have as much a chance of winning silverware this year, so on with the show.

    Winning the league though is difficult under present circumstances, but so be it!


    hahaha, people on here wont get that joke Cornwall, but its very very funny, especialy since thats what I intend to do. hahaha

  102. arnie says:

    Personally, I liked the way we played yesterday. Even if we lost. But that is not going to make most people happy. I liked this much more than the 2005 FA Cup final, which we won!

  103. arnie says:

    but I would of course be happier if we were able to convert our superiority into goals yesterday. alas! not to be.

    But things can change when Giroud and Theo get into the groove.

  104. Rasp says:

    arnie, were you happy when (as Rocky observed) with 20 minutes to go and only at 1 nil down, The BFG went marauding forward to the edge of manu’s box, completely deserting his defensive duties and minutes later we were 2 down. Mertesacker is a senior player and should be a leader on the pitch, organising and setting an example – but he acted like a schoolboy.

  105. Rasp says:

    The point is that we can play the attractive football we all admire without the need to make fundamental defensive errors – it is a coaching issue, nothing else.

  106. arnie says:

    Rasp. It was a calculated risk which did not pay off. I missed the goal because I was travelling, but based on what I saw earlier in the game, Chambers and Monreal would have been at the back is what I would guess.

    The same strategy paid off against Anderlecht away. Football is a game of percentages and right now the luck of the coin is not falling heads up for us.

    But better succumb trying rather than not! Having said that, I am perhaps not convinced that BFG is a better bet upfront than Chambers, for example.

  107. arnie says:

    But defence is a matter of discipline and organisation, on that I agree. We are somehow suddenly caught out on this front this year!

    It beats me as to how we can have arguably the best defence in the world one year and the worst the next year.

  108. Rasp says:

    arnie, I’m not sure your concept of a team is the same as mine. In my team, everyone has a job and everyone has to look after everyone else’s back and play for one another. When our players commit forward with 8 men ahead of the ball at 3 nil up and then continue to do so when we’ve been pegged back to 3:2, I have serious doubts about the strength of the ‘team’. If just one player had taken charge and brought some organisation to our play, we might still have won that game.

  109. arnie says:

    Rasp. I am not so sure we have such different views. For me, the first job for a defender is to defend. And this includes wing-backs.

    It should be an exception rather than the rule for the back 4 to venture beyond the centre line when we are leading. And the job of everyone else to support the defence.

    When we are behind, everyone available should try and help the attackers. This can leave us somewhat vulnerable to counter attacks. But that is a calculated risk that you take.

    Once again, remember this paid off against Anderlecht away.

  110. Rasp says:

    I’m sorry arnie, Anderlecht away is simply not a good argument – in fact its an example of exactly what I’m talking about. We have better players than Anderlecht, we shouldn’t need to implement a high risk strategy and sacrifice our defensive structure for gung-ho attacking, that only happened because they tired after having been the better side for 80 minutes and we got lucky – we’re better than that.

  111. Rasp says:

    Any way, at 3 nil up we certainly didn’t need to go searching for a 4th and sacrificing a clean sheet – let alone the 3 points.

  112. arnie says:

    yes Rasp @ 10:28, agreed 100%.

  113. Shard says:

    I certainly remember being annoyed at the defending for Anderlecht’s first goal in that match, even though it was offside, but I didn’t think it came from us charging up the field. So I went back and looked and we actually had the entire back 4, plus Arteta behind the ball, and others like Ox, Ramey and Cazorla in decent positions marking opposition players, with Sanchez coming back too. everyone marked their runners, except Cazorla who though didn’t let his runner get past him, did not fall further back until it was too late to help Chambers, which allowed the cross to come in.

    Where was this charging forward at 3-0?

  114. wally says:

    Good teams find a way to win. Crap teams look for excuses.

    This team is well coached? Really? Really? After seeing the same mistakes for years? Teh same type of goals given away, the same type of mistakes for YEARS. REALLY? One of us is confused as to which team he’s watching.

    The third highest payroll in the league. Anyone think we’re headed for third?

  115. MickyDidIt89 says:

    Still pissed off missing Dortmund, but looking like Southampton the following Weds could be a go

  116. MickyDidIt89 says:

    You won’t be surprised to learn that I have the solution to all Arsenal’s woes.

    Sod it. Let’s oil up. Get slippery. Lube up. Whatever you want to call it.

  117. Shard says:

    Good teams find a way to win. Crap teams look for excuses.


    Or maybe, teams are called good only when they win?

    The result is the most important thing in a game, yes. But it is still an imperfect gauge of performance of a team.

    I’m reminded of the interview I saw by a member of the Magical Magyars of 54, who lost in the final to West Germany. He was an old man, but you could see the pain in his eyes as he talked about how they felt they weren’t allowed to win since they were a communist country. His (translated) words were, ‘but.. losing cannot be explained, and winning doesn’t have to be.’

    Are you sure of your analysis of Arsenal being crap? By no reasonable standard are Arsenal crap, and as for the same mistakes, often enough, your perceptions of errors being repeated are in fact, not true. It is a self feeding narrative which builds up. I’m not saying we don’t have a certain weakness. We do. It’s just overblown. Every team, every coach, has certain weaknesses. Give any coach a long enough period of time and you’ll see similarities in ‘failures’. It doesn’t necessarily make it an overriding problem.

  118. chas says:

  119. MickyDidIt89 says:


    Just been looking at the Arsenal dot com site, and there are loads of tickets still available for Dortmund. Really?

  120. MickyDidIt89 says:

    ROLF ๐Ÿ™‚

    Morning Shard. Just haven’t got that kind of thinky hat on yet.

  121. chas says:

    Do you mean on the exchange, Micky?
    I’d imagine a lot of tickets have gone on since Saturday with people wanting to avoid the poisonous atmosphere.

    Heard this yesterday and I realise it’s typical Talkshite fare but the ‘leaving the ground in tears’ made me piss myself.

  122. chas says:


  123. MickyDidIt89 says:

    Yip, trouser wettingly funny.
    And before I toddle off, no, not exchange. Still open to red members. Exchange only kicks in when it’s a sell out, so nothing to do with Saturday’s result.

  124. chas mobile says: says it’s sold out!

  125. kelsey says:

    Morning all

    I see micky hid for most of the day, yesterday ๐Ÿ˜‰

  126. Shard says:

    I am 5 and a half hours ahead of you Micky ๐Ÿ™‚

    Loved the newspaper clarification.

  127. MickyDidIt89 says:

    You’re right. They are on the exchange. Definitely more than usual.

    Not hiding. Out all day.

  128. Eddie says:

    Kels – your mate is coming round at 11, I expect a lot of flirting ๐Ÿ™‚

  129. Eddie says:

    I’ve surprised myself on Saturday and Sunday. I wasn’t very bothered about us losing to the Mancs. I couldn’t understand it and had to do some soul searching and have a half cooked answer – over the past say 10 years I had humongous expectations, every season I was sure we would win the league and more. I backed us to win the EPL every year, but not this year. It has finally dawned on me that we will more than likely win nothing and all there is to take from football is joy of every victory and positives from loses.

    Did you see the Palace supporters yesterday? They went bananas, overwhelmed with happiness, because the victory was not expected.

    The pressure on me is no longer and it is actually less painful. Overambitious people die of heart attacks young.

  130. kelsey says:

    Nice Eddie. Hope to meet up this Friday.

  131. arnie says:

    motning all.

  132. Eddie says:

    oh arnie.

    Kels – business or pleasure? Both for me. I hope he is bringing me lots of money today ๐Ÿ™‚

    British businessman pleads no guilty to murder of 2 Thai women found dead in his flat. He didn’t know anything about it.

  133. kelsey says:

    purely pleasure Eddie, one step at a time.

  134. arnie says:

    Evonne. I am officially in mourning! ๐Ÿ˜›

  135. Eddie says:

    he is fun, you’ll have good time ๐Ÿ™‚
    I’m a woman, multitasking is easy

  136. arnie says:

    Evonne. I am mourning the loss to ManUre, for the eneth time, even if we played as well as we have played all season!

  137. Eddie says:

    yeah, they are one of few teams I particularly hate losing to, but hey, THEY KNOW they were very lucky and did not deserve the win. I heard their fans on the radio saying that they will not finish in top 10 if they continue playing like that.

    Remember that we always do well when going to games as the underdogs! And every dog has its day! We will wallop chavs, and Mancs and the fecking rest of them

  138. Morning all

    Kelsey flirting with a ‘fun’ man ๐Ÿ™‚

    I’m drinking wine, tapping on the puter, watching TV and eating some chorizo………….. who says men can’t multitask too! ๐Ÿ™‚

  139. Eddie says:

    at 10am?? bloody hell NB, I could never eat meat so early
    A friend of my almost-ex introduced me to this financial expert, highly recommended of course. He turned out to be Kelsey’s mate, whom he lost touch with 40+ years ago. Absolutely unbelievable

  140. arnie says:

    Evonne. “this financial expert”, eh? do you have lots of money to hide? ๐Ÿ™‚

    BTW. all Hamilton fans on here. let me remind you that he ran away to Switzerland mainly to avoid his taxes in this country. Personally, I hate such individuals. the Mittal’s of this world. ๐Ÿ˜ฆ

  141. I heard that story… the internet is great for finding old friends ๐Ÿ™‚

    I know lots of women who like meat in the morning… but I won’t get into that ha ha

  142. arnie says:

    how did you come to know such women, NorthBank? ๐Ÿ™‚

  143. arnie

    Do you mean to tell us that you don’t have an accountant who looks for ways for you to pay less tax? Come on, you wouldn’t be human ๐Ÿ™‚

  144. arnie says:

    NorthBank. ๐Ÿ™‚


    evonne, why didnt you come to me?

    This geezer cant be that good. Hes probably the one that gave Kelsey advice and now poor Crystals makes his money by suing dodgy dentists and selling his hair to Cashmere coat manufacturers

    ime the man to go for financial advice. Yes, theres lot of clients currently in prison who promise to come see me when they get out

  146. ha ha Transplant the dodgy financial consultant from Bounds Green ๐Ÿ™‚
    He’ll tell you to put your money into a tax haven… what he doesn’t tell you is that it’s his personal bank account. No wonder there are some dodgy villains waiting for their early parole release so they can pay him a visit.

  147. Here is Transplant, the Greek financial advisor dealing with one of his clients:

  148. Eddie says:

    Terry – I thought you were a regular boring accountant! Do you do mortgages for people with not one tick on the Barclays mortgage application form?

    NB – you would be such a nice bloke if not for the sexual obsession. It is so unbecoming of a man your age ๐Ÿ™‚ Terry is clever, he talks about his sexual encounters in past tense implying that it happened when he was a young Adonis ๐Ÿ™‚ Ok, ok, I am prudish and a Catholic

  149. The Cockie Monster says:

    I once got sucked into a money making scheme, I didn`t like the taste of it, but at least I made a tenner !.

  150. Eddie says:

    Short story – in Poland in October I was queuing in a shop when this old geezer said to me ‘We should talk about sex, don’t you think?’
    I insulted him rather badly as he pointed to a magazine on the rack with ‘We should talk about sex’ title on the front page. Ooops ๐Ÿ™‚

  151. The Cockie Monster says:

    We all know Stretch likes to go on about …..”The Ghosts of the thirties are stirring !”….so much so, that he likes to practice at being a ghost just in case there is an after life, yes, he moves objects about, slams doors and stands at the ends of beds making wooing sounds in strangers houses !

  152. Eddie

    At my age sex is a long forgotten pleasure…. I only have obsession left. Unlike Transplant who gets Cockie involved in money making schemes to earn a tenner ๐Ÿ™‚


    hahaha, yes broken dreams 69

    A couple of years ago Cornwall wanted to try his luck in the big city so asked my advice.

    I sold him some story how we could sell Louganigo (Greek sausage) to the Soho restaurant trade.

    Of course, Cornwall was selling whilst I lay back and counted money.

    Unfortunately, like most young men coming to London to seek there fortune, the Big City can be a cruel and unforgiving place and the business deteriorated

    Last I heard Cornwall was still scraping a living by selling sausage down Soho. Apparently his clients are either mostly confused young men or fat middle aged bastards who told there wife there just popping out for a bite to eat. hahaha

  154. Eddie says:

    NB ๐Ÿ™‚ a ‘clean’ painting to start the week? Do you have any Arsenal related works?

  155. ha ha Eddie……… only one of AW which I did for Cockie, but not suitable for here ๐Ÿ™‚

    I am thinking of doing some paintings of Arsenal legends… Henry, Bergkamp etc. But for the meantime I’m doing small still lifes to sell at art markets next summer. I’ll sort a ‘clean’ one to post ๐Ÿ™‚

  156. poigmothoin says:

    Morning All
    Eddie has NB not shown you his portrait of AW? Although thinking about it perhaps not until the watershed. ๐Ÿ™‚

  157. poigmothoin says:

    He beat me to it ha ha.

  158. Here’s one Eddie… for a Monday it’s clean

  159. Here’s the type of still life I’m doing… very very clean ha ha

  160. Eddie says:

    Chris ?? Nice pics, thank you. My favourite is the room with body on the bed, minus the body and the purple cafรฉ. Who is the woman in black and white?

  161. She’s a friend and one of my models…. I have others of her naked but not suitable for your eyes ha ha.

  162. ha ha just seen that you used my name…. ah well, it’s out now ๐Ÿ™‚

  163. Rasp says:

    Anyone got a few lines for a post today?

  164. The Cockie Monster says:

    I didn`t think that one I asked you to do of Wenger was that bad, quite mild really compared to what I had in mind !. hahaha

  165. Here you go Rasp:

    When Arsenal played a team called United
    Their defence got it wrong and were blighted
    Then Arsenal pushed for a goal
    Leaving a fucking big hole
    And then Louis Van Gaal was delighted

  166. Rasp, post e mailed to arsenalnuts.

  167. Cockie

    If you were an artist I dread to think what images you’d paint ๐Ÿ™‚

  168. Rasp says:

    Thanks NB, do you also write those jokes inside Christmas Crackers? ๐Ÿ˜†

    We cannot debate the team, the performances or the manager it seems so there isn’t much else to talk about ๐Ÿ˜ฆ

  169. Rasp says:

    Thanks Norfolk, you’re a brick ๐Ÿ˜›

    …….. New post everyone ……

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