I have always been a staunch ‘sustainable model’ kind of guy, in keeping, you might say, with my career as a no-nonsense, think with your head and not with your heart accountant.
However, recent events have made me stop and reflect on that ‘sustainability’ stance.
The Chavs are now beginning to flex their obscene financial muscle, once again, in the transfer market to re-stock their ageing squad while Citeh continuously threaten to hoover up any footballing talent not securely nailed down after buying their first Premier League title, and even the Spuds are beginning to flex Joe Lewis’ chequebook.
Manyoo, for many years after the founding of the Premier League, plundered the top British talent, and continue to do so. They have been joined by a plethora of established clubs throughout Europe, together with the recent arrival of the latest bunch of artless financial pillagers.
Despite that, and the contiguous financial drain of building a new stadium, we have maintained our position as the second most successful Premiership team in terms of points earned, since the inception of the League, with 1,449 points, with only Manyoo above us on 1,663.
Those points, however, have not translated into a proportionate number of titles won, and this has caused a wave of unrest among many Gooners everywhere.
I have already mentioned two of the relatively new boys on the block, and bearing in mind our wish to be competitive in European football too, it might be worth having a look at a number of our wealthy competitors, including the oil nation or ‘rich boy toy’ clubs who have sprung up in recent years.
- Man City = Abu Dhabi Unt Group – bought 2008 — £1bn
- Chelsea = Abramovich – bought 2003 – £1bn
- Anzhi Makhachkala = S Kerimonov – Russia – bought 2011 — £200m
- Paris St Germain = Qatar Investment Authority – bought 2011 – £100m
- Malaga = Sheikh Abdullah (Qatar) – bought 2010 – £75m
- Real Madrid = ‘Socios’ members – Spanish government backed
- Barcelona owned by its supporters – Catalonia backed
- Man Utd = Malcolm Glazer and family, billionaires {landed debt for purchase of the club on its own balance sheet}.
- Spurs – Privately owned by Joe Lewis – billionaire – shows financial muscle in discrete way.
- Juventus and AC Milan from Italy
- Bayern from Germany
The list is not exhaustive!
There are, in addition, any number of other clubs who have powerful (secondary) financial backing, which will become evident in the near future, such as Liverpool, Villa and Newcastle, while other ‘poor’ clubs are begging to be taken over and elevated into the ‘financial mainstream’, such as Everton and a number of well known Spanish and French clubs.
Arsenal’s options within this mounting tide of footballing opulence, is to stay as we currently are, sensible, well run, self sustaining, but inevitably doomed to a cycle of a diminishing world fan base and a resultant decrease in commercial financial worth, caused by the lack of silverware; or to grasp the bullet, and accept the cornucopia of unbelievable wealth which is on offer from the likes of Usmanov, or some other oily benefactor, which may well bring many a trophy success, but might also be a poisoned chalice if we embrace mammon.
Look, I have no easy answers.
Although I love sport in general, there is no other club I love with the unreasoning passion that I have for Arsenal, so what is the best for my club is my only driver in this discussion.
As a point in question, I can tell you that second and third in my ‘love’ list are “The New York Yankees” and “The New York Giants” respectively. I watch them when I can, and always religiously look for their scores. I am infused with joy when they win and plunged into gloom when they lose.
What I don’t care about, and never give a tuppenny fig for, is who currently owns their franchises, or how much they bought them for, or where the money comes from to successfully the run the clubs.
These owner guys live in a world of wealth I can only dream about, and they would laugh their heads off if they thought I worried, for even a nano-second about their financial sustainability.
These guys are in it to win games and trophies and thereby to increase their commercial returns and make profits, while enjoying the ego trip.
Therein lays the rub.
You see, there is a very well known, extremely wealthy, American entrepreneur called Stan Kroenke, who owns a number of franchises in the US. And do you know what? I don’t care about his commercial franchises, or how profitable they are, anymore than I do those of the owners of the Yankees or the Giants. And frankly, I could care less for Mr Usmanov if it came to that.
The trouble is, here in the UK, it seems, I actually must worry myself, as part of the “committed fan” package, as to whether Stan’s financial model is running sustainably or not, (which basically means he does not run the club at a loss, while his shares continue to accrue in value) whilst sublimating my own quite justifiable desires for Premier League and European Champions League success and glory.
What is going on here?
I supported Arsenal, originally, as a boy, because of family influences, and then grew to love the chutzpah of the club, its football playing style and the sheer joyous exhilaration and exaltation of my fabulous team winning games and collecting trophies!!
I am quite sure I did not sign up to worry about the financial worth of the club’s wealthy shareholders!
Do you know what — writing this article has been catharctic, and I am beginning to come to my senses and realize that Arsenal are never going to go bust — ever — and my real and only sustainable love is for Arsenal my club, and the Arsenal team’s success — and as for Stan and his sustainable entrepreneurial investment – not so much!!
I know there is an understandable feeling among many loyal, long term supporters to continue with the “Arsenal” way of doing things, and they are entitled to think that way, and to eschew the introduction of ‘obscene’ wealth into the club. However, so too are the other equally loyal Arsenal fans who see the “Arsenal” way of doing things as an ephemeral and esoteric concept, and simply want to see their club competing and winning on a level financial playing field.
Now, stripped down to its basics, we are faced with answering the following question;
Do you want Arsenal to compete successfully with the ever expanding list of ‘rich’ clubs on a level playing field, or do you want to subscribe to a beautiful accounting concept that mainly benefits the incumbent shareholders and perhaps never win anything?
For me the jury is still out – but I am wavering, whereas in the past I was totally in the pro sustainable model camp.
What we, as fans think, is moot in truth, especially if the financial takeovers of more clubs carry on at the current rate, I think the decision will be taken by Stan to take his substantial profit and run — just like all the previous shareholders have done!
Written by Red Arse
Arsenal News 24/7
arsenalarsenal.net 
Apparently Stan has never taken the money and run.
Is there an equivalent of Glasgow Rangers in the States?
Morning all
Hi gm – I believe that Danny Fiszman felt that Kroenke was the best man to take over the club to protect us from ‘sugardaddydom’. As early as 2009 Gazidis was talking Kroenke up as a future owner of the club. The board needed someone who wasn’t going to interfere in the day to day running, was happy to stick their money into Arsenal longterm and Stan was their man.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/arsenal/5084635/Ivan-Gazidis-talks-up-Stan-Kroenke-and-tries-to-unite-Arsenal-shareholders.html
gm – I think the point is that if Stan did cut and run he would make a lot of money on his investment.
RA thanks for the article, like you I couldn’t really care who ran the club as long as its there to support, by that LBs short question about Rangers is valid. There is only do much room at the top table.
Let’s assume Everton, Spurs and others get the Oily type investor they crave….that will be four clubs trying to spend unrelentingly in search of honours, then if another couple follow suit what are we left with? A bunch of wealthy people owning an ego trip which isn’t inflating their ego, so they cut and run, the question then is what next.
If Kroenke sells his shares we won’t pay for them, and we won’t be left with a loan to be repaid which increases the chances thy my club will be there for my children to support, that’s all I need.
Trophies are nice along the way but not at the expense of having somewhere to go on a Saturday/Sunday/Monday Eve (bloody Sky!) to meet friends and watch my team.
I wonder how Rangers fans are feeling, only the financial reliance on the gate receipts created mean the SFA are trying to get them in to Div 1. I doubt the PL gravy train collapses without us or City or Chelsea, there are plenty itching to take our place and we would be lucky to be allowed into the Conference should a similar fate await us. Long before then we would have all formed ArsenalArsenal FC and be watching on Finsbury Park every Sunday morning.
LB – Found this link for you
http://www.city-data.com/forum/soccer/1216482-why-there-no-promotion-relegation-mls-2.html
Thank you RA for a great post and a really clear explanation of the choice – it’s not really a choice though because we as supporters have nothing to do with it.
Can someone explain to me what is terrible about the proposal by Usmanov for a rights issue to inject some cash?
Have we just not offered van Persie enough money because we haven’t got it?
Morning Peaches
It was, of course, a retorical question. I have spent a lot of time in the States and am aware that they do not have a relegation system. It is quite clever in one way but makes for a far less passionate game, in my opinion, on the other.
Hi LB – it’s a valid question but as you say it kind of sanitises the pressure that clubs come under to survive.
Do you feel like RA that as supporters we shouldn’t have to worry about the sustainability stuff or would you have a plan if you were in Kroenke’s shoes?
The easy thing is for supporters to say ‘spend some money’ but where it comes from is entirely different.
Morning Guys, 🙂
Thanks, Peaches, for getting straight to the nub of the matter.
I mentioned in the ultimate paragraph of the Post that what we (the fans) think should be done, or not, is really by the by.
Thr Manyoo fans were outraged when they were taken over by the Glazers, and forecast doom for their club by the manner in which the take over was funded and many tore up their season tickets.
After many successful, trophy laden years, they seem to have changed their tune, and that club has gone on to be the biggest and best supported in the world ……………. and the Glazers have done things they way they wanted regardless.
This is also true of the Chelsea fans, who complained bitterly that Abramovich was a loose cannon who bought their club when it could have been almost any other club. Not too many of them complain now …………………… but it did not bother Abramovich anyway.
Citeh fans were coming on here last year and saying much the same thing, but soon changed their opinions. The Sheikh no doubt had his motives for buying the club ………………… the views of the fans were secondary.
It is natural for us to discuss the options and voice our preferences as to the way the club is run, different tho those opinions may be, but in the end the big money men will do their thing regardless.
Y’know what, I’m happier with Arsenal existing on it’s own footing rather than as a billionaires plaything, if we win it’s down to being smart and working hard rather than throwing money at a squad until there’s too much talent to not win. This is before you consider the supposed ‘dodginess’ of Usmanov, along with the problem of being constrained to one man’s whims. I’m now resigned to it being almost impossible to compete with the money due to practically zero loyalty in football but I’m not sure I’d enjoy the alkernative any more.
Really, really good post RA, and one that I’m sure will spark a debate to cause even the most robust of constitutions to struggle with the roast potatoes 🙂
Here’s a question aimed generally into the atmosphere.
Why does anyone think SK is in it for either profit or trophies?
My question as to whether there is an equivalent of Glasgow Rangers in the States is purposely designed to show why we need to care about the fiancial ownership of our club and why they don’t seem to need to in the States.
Today I live in Washington DC and therefore I support the Washington Redskins but my work is taking me to Denver so I will follow those Broncos and if it had been San Francisco well, then the 49ers would have been my team.
This is an alien concept and has nothing to do with me or how and why I support Arsenal.
Red Arse, I’m sure we’ll see far more outrage vociferated by mancs this season, they can’t afford to rejuvenate their squad and were lucky to get as far as they did, they’ve been on the decline for a few years, it’s just that the refs have been kind enough to float them down rather than it being a quick jolt.
We’ll see what happens with Chelsea and Citeh, one will win the title again and the other will have another bad season with Di Matteo being sacked by Christmas, so it’s up and down imo.
It has nothing to do with spending an obscene amount of money,it has something to do who you spend it on and Mr.Wenger have surely dropped the ball on one to many occasions.Flapianski,Vela,Squid,Diaby,Chamakh,Park etc.Admittedly he also makes a lot of money at resale.But sometimes he is just to clever and tight when faced with a straightforward solution he always chooses the difficult one.For instance he re-signed Henry and Sol instead of splashing 10 mil or 20 mil on a permanent solution and when he should have signed in january when we were in for the championship he inexplicable dropped the ball again,he could easily have won 2 or 3 more championships if it hadnt been for his stingyness.
DS
A very clever and verly likely scenario in my opinion.
Is it Sweden or Denmark that has the highest suicide rate?
Rotating Richard 🙂 ,
You make a very good point. Being West Country based, I have many friends who follow Argyle, Torquay and Exeter and all enjoy many great days’ out following their teams. Arsenal will always be up there with the big boys, so long as we don’t end up the plaything of a totally unscrupulous owner. Very bad things have not happened to the likes of City, Chelsea and so on, but oh boy, could they!
LB 🙂
Not so sure about clever but glad it doesn’t seem TOO ridiculous.
Hey DS,
Change your name to Rotating Richard. We’ll shorten it to RR, which is short for Rip Roar, and hey presto, legend of the North Bank.
Dick,
That is possibly true.
As more and more “Oligarchs and Oily Sheiks” buy up more and more clubs at their whim, the one over-riding constant that they cannot change is that for the top echelon clubs there is still, in England, only one Premier League title, one FA Cup and the Mickey Mouse Cup.
De facto, there can only be one winner for each of these prizes.
It could be reasoned that this, in turn, will generate an even greater frenzy of “money throwing” to grab the best players, and the ‘good guys’, aka Arsenal, will inevitably get burned as they are priced out of buying or paying the salaries of a limited pool of players.
My preference would be for a level financial playing field, based on self sustainability, for all clubs in the Premiership, but that particular boat has long sailed.
Can one of you accountant types answer Peaches’ question about rights issue before i mess it up with a hairdressers answer?
Does anyone remember Mathew Harding?
A wealthy chav who put lots of money into chavland, what happened to him?
Tragically died in a helicopter crash.
What’s the point of this post?
The chavs are one unexpected accident away from the third division.
The chavs can claim to have experienced two things that Arsenal never have.
1 Winning the Champions League
2 Being relegated.
Best I could do for a Sunday morning.
Bottom line is that I can’t see Fair Play working, so I do wish these Oily sorts would bugger off. What’s wrong with F1, after all I’m sure they’ve all got spoilt brat children who wouldn’t mind a decent sized Scalextrics Set for Christmas.
.
GM,
Personally I’d rather hear the hairdresser version 🙂
thats a blinding post Red, well played.
You made me waver too, for a second 🙂
Lets see how FFP plays out and then i might waver some more !
if you inherited a million pounds would you
a) spend it all enjoying life to the max, getting loads of memories and probably ravaging your body in the process to the point where you are left potless and on a deathbed.
or
b) invest the money, living within your means and making sure that your children will be left with security and money to enjoy in their own way?
this is the dilemma we have as football fans.
Personally i would rather live in the knowledge that my children will one day be able to enjoy the football club in the same way that i have.
OK here goes
The rights issuue would force Kronke (and small shareholeders) to put more money in or see their (forgot this word) get smaller. jabba (being the richest man in Britain) can do stuff like that as 100 million is loose change to him.
One for you Peaches. jabba has just cut (not personally obviously) quite a few of George Michaels’s trees down. The bastard!
Hi, GM, 🙂
This is a short and dirty explanation.
The Rights Issue affair can be viewed from different perspectives, vis a viz Kroenke, Usmanov and the club.
But first what the hell is it?
Well, in brief, it is a way for a company to raise additional capital that can then be used to fund the company’s business ……………. in Arsenal’s case to buy more player, supposedly.
Rather than a public offering to every man on the street, it means offering new shares to existing shareholders at a specified price, within a specified time period.
Sounds a good way to introduce fresh cash into the club and enable it to buy a couple of marquee signings, maybe?
Kroenke’s position might be that he has 66% of the shareholding of Arsenal, and if the offer was to generate (say) £200m of capital, he would have to find 66% of £200m = £132m.
He might not have this sort of dough to hand or want to increase his investment in the club.
He might, tho, choose to take up part of the offer, but that would dilute his overall holding. Usmanov, on the other hand, might be happy to fund all or part of the issue, but that would have the effect of increasing his overall shareholding over the current 30%.
So What do we have?
Kroenke; may not have the cash, or only have part of it.
Bad news if he went ahead, it would let Usmanov in, and be the stronger for it.
Usmanov; may genuinely want to pump more money into the club to enable it to compete better in the transfer market.
Might also increase his % share of the issued share capital, depending on Kroenke’s move.
Arsenal; It would definitely give the club more dosh to grab the top players.
Let’s face it —- this is political dynamite for the big shareholders and we (the fans) have no influence on it.
RA
That’s exactly what I said 🙂
Bet you can’t cut an A line bob or do a french pleat 🙂
GM,
I am embarrassed to admit that I don’t even know what they are.
When I feel better I have made a resolution to ask you for an appointment, and to splash out on having my ‘barnet’ cut properly, at least once in my life!! 🙂
I am of the scarecrow scruffy mob with totally unmanageable hair which just blows in the wind like a dandelion clock!!
“I really like Arsenal. But you, do you really like Arsenal? Or just Arsenal with trophies?” — Dennis Bergkamp
Hi, Mickey, 🙂
Forgot to say hello and thank you for your 11:22 comment. 🙂
The Post should not cause anyone to get apoplectic, as it is akin to looking at a topical issue, without being judgemental, and trying to put the basic shareholding issue (no pun intended 🙂 ) over which none of us fans have any say, into some sort of perspective.
Hi Tommy, 🙂
Thanks for that.
I am by nature and profession a cautious person. So, I have always argued the ‘sustainable model’ case ………….. and still do, really.
But I cannot close my eyes and ignore the vicious financial maelstrom swirling around both the world and the somewhat insular football economies.
It does not hurt to stop and look at your options in the ‘real’ world, as the worst has yet to bite, and the same is also true in football.
From todays times. THE ANGST has started earlier than usual at Arsenal. It’s normally late August when everyone starts saying they’ll have a useless season and the players moan about not having bought anyone commensurate with their own incalculable talents and former players join in the fugue of discontent and the columnists suggest that Arsène Wenger is about to be defenestrated.
Last year, as they were being knocked about all over the park for a few games when half the side were injured, the pundits had drawn up Wenger’s — and Arsenal’s — death certificate.
That was late August, if you remember. It seemed to me at the time a tad premature and, sure enough, they finished third.
That’s not a huge disgrace is it, third? The Greek chorus of disapproval — some fans, some players, some investors, some columnists — point to the fact that it is fully seven years since Arsenal won a trophy. Oh, the ignominy, the disgrace. Look at a club of comparable size and history, Newcastle United — they’ve had to wait 57 years for a domestic trophy and they’re still waiting.
What they would give for the pretty much continual Champions League qualification brought to the Emirates by Wenger. Hell, what Liverpool would give, or Spurs, or Villa.
And what any club in Europe would give for the quality of football played by Arsenal, consistently, in the past 10 years. Obviously, out of chippiness and spite, I don’t like them one bit and I enjoy sneering at Arsenal supporters who never go to matches because a) they can’t afford it or b) they can’t get a ticket. I’m not keen on the plethora of foreign players or the fact that there are carpets inside the stadium, which is just deeply wrong.
But these petty annoyances aside, you have to say that no club have been a better credit to the top division than Arsenal, either in the way they are run or the standard of football to which Wenger aspires. Arsenal have a coherent business model; it eschews debt. Unfashionable, maybe, but right.
The suspicion persists that Wenger is one of about five or six sane human beings in what is a palpably insane business. I don’t know how he reacted to that emetic “goodbye letter to the fans” from Robin van Persie; I would have gone round and set fire to his clogs or smashed up his bicycle. But Wenger is a more balanced individual than myself and more used to dealing with fabulously arrogant young men with a berserk regard for their supposed brilliance.
There was one part of the Dutchman’s letter that must stick in the craw of any reasonable person, and I don’t mean the bits where he refers to Arsenal supporters as “you guys”. He explained that he sat down with the chairman and the manager and “we in many aspects disagree on the way Arsenal FC should move forward”.
Did you? Did you, Robin? How crushing it must have been for them to have transgressed the considered opinions of this titan of international finance. I say considered opinions, because I assume Robin presented the board with his fully costed alternative business plan.
This is absolutely matchless arrogance and self-regard, made even funnier by his pious announcement that sorting out an extremely lucrative contract for himself was “not my priority”. No, no, I’m sure that’s the very last thing you wanted, mate — way down the list after a cure for malaria, world peace and equal rights for everyone. The statement immediately brought to mind Shaun Wright-Phillips’ assertion that he had left Manchester City for Chelsea not to inflate his weekly wage packet but to improve his international career. (How did that work out for you, by the way, Shaun old son?)
And then followed the letter from the Dynamo Moscow supporter and diasporic Russian oligarch Alisher Usmanov, the 28th richest man in the world. He’s beginning to get a bit snippy about his investment in Arsenal. He also has a problem with the business model, but you cannot sustain a football club over a long period by relying on the capricious input of rich individuals. Rich individuals have a habit of going broke, or getting the hell out at inopportune moments, or ending up in a prison cell.
Arsenal are doing things properly and as a consequence, 20 years from now, the club will still be third in the Premier League, rather than folded or begging to be reinstated in division one or two. Wenger and the board know Arsenal cannot live with the spending of Manchester City. Neither can anyone else and nor, in time, can Manchester City
Dandan,
Who wrote that? Well above the usual low standards of ignorant, myopic, biased or bought journalists.
Dandan
That’s brilliant and reminds me of a recent joke.
rvp’s house has burnt down the police haven’t ruled out arsene
I’ll get my coat
The article was written by Rod Liddle
There are quite a few good articles after robin’s statement. i think he’s come out of this badly from a PR perspective.
Thanks gm and RA for the explanation of the right’s issue and why it might not be acceptable to the board. It’s pretty clear to me that Usmanov surmises that Kroenke doesn’t want or doesn’t have the resources to put more money into the club so his invitation for a rights issue is two-fold – to expose Kroenke but also to gain a larger holding for himself if it’s accepted.
I still don’t understand why either of them are in it 😳
gm – Robin does not come out this well, I can’t see how anyone could have advised him to release that statement.
Micky – don’t forget I have your Red Membership Cards
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/331549/I-trust-Arsene-Wenger-s-wisdom-over-self-interest-of-Robin-van-Persie/
Jimmy Rice @JimmyRiceWriter
Dear BBC, the ‘Come on Andy’ slogan in your advert has a very different meaning to the grammatically correct phrase ‘Come on, Andy’.
ah..idont know what i want ?a corinthian spirit club or a richmans play thing just like the lot down the road!but one VERY big issue is the Rangers issue!where did it all go wrong?overspending on players transfers and salaries living beyond their means and bam your club is gone!
My wordpress just went really weird. It’s chenged to ancient Egyptian (can’t spell hyrogl whatever)
Peaches
kronke’s business is sprts franchises so i understand that. As long as the club’s value grows so will his investment. i don’t know why the other one is so keen.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/article-2169935/Arsenal-trust-Arsene-Wenger-Robin-van-Persie–Des-Kelly.html#comments
I’ve decided to stop hating Murray and hope he wins today.
Hi RA, thanks for a fantastic, and naturally very well-written, and very timely post. Top stuff! 🙂
I think I have expressed my views enough in the last 12 hours or so.
The bid I do not agree with is in your main question to us at the end: your assumption that our ‘beautiful accounting concept’ is mainly benefiting the major incumbent shareholders. For us, the fans, it is also vitally important that our club is managed financially sound.
MU have a debt of £432.000.000 – GR went bankrupts on a debt less than a third of MU’s debt. I like Arsenal to stay away from these sort of debts at all costs. Am I being too romantic / too concerned perhaps?
It might have been a good idea if you had added a list of strength/opportunities and weaknesses/risks of both financial model options and then follow it up with a vote.
I have a small question for you: what are the risks for Arsenal football club if we raise additional capital through a rights issue (short and long term)?
Thanks RA! 🙂
Excellent post Redders, and i completely understand your sentiments in casting a, that might no be so bad after after all, eye towards the rich benefactors.
Since your a friend, i will let you into a little secret. Mr Usmanov is out of time, and he knows it. Reading through his open letter its obvious. The best he can offer is to pay off the loan early, saving the club 15 million per year. I am not anti Usmanov or pro Kronke and my reason is this. In the next five years we will win Leagues and Champion Leagues which ever man is in charge.
Yes, Usmanov is out of time, so why? Two things are pulling large football clubs current strategies. The first is ffp. I wont go into the arguments as to wether it will work or not, because to the trained eye it is already working. The second pull is the potentialy hugh income streams that all marketable clubs can obtain by tapping into new markets and making use of increased technology to push there product. Make no mistake, this is were Kronke and Usmanov are exactly the same. They both see this future and see pound notes on there shares.
Now think of City and Chelsea. They are implementing policies to comply with ffp, but they are not panicking, why?. Because they know they have pushed there clubs into a marketable position were they to can benefit from those future expected revenues. In other words there increased revenues will replace there handouts.
Slowly but surely, the playing field will level and when it does the best will win. Who is the best? Arsenal of course. Because when the time comes we will have the advantages of entering the race with all our inherent vaules intact. Do not underestimate these vaules, they are not pie in the sky, they are the difference between a good organisation and a great one, and Arsenal is a great one.
Dont worry about who owns the Club. Both men, Kronke and Usmanov see the hugh potential, why shouldnt we? they are not better than us. Great Club, Great future. dont beleive me? Ask Kronke and Usmanov.
Tennis is so boring. Why dont they throw away those silly bats and start kicking and heading the ball over the net instead?
Wow, TA, a very good analytical set of observations and key follow up questions, and good afternoon to you sir. 🙂
I accept your comment that the benefits of the current sustainability concept benefits both the shareholder/owner but also the fans too.
I was referring to the financial benefits for the ‘owner’ which are direct and calculable.
The benefit to the fans is indirect and not so easily provable.
After all is said and done, the longevity of the ‘sustainable model’ is subject to the whim of the owner, every bit as much as the ‘Rich Boy’ model.
“What the hell do you mean” I can hear you ask?
OK, GIE mentioned earlier that Kroenke has eschewed, up until now, the taking of dividends from the club. This then leads to Peaches’ very astute question “What is in it for either of Kroenke and Usmanov ?” [I paraphrase].
Kroenke is widely held to be an astute businessman, so why has he invested approx £700m into Arsenal which has cost him interest on the sum borrowed, and where he is receiving no dividend income. Well, with Usmanov (and maybe others) lurking around, the share price has been driven up, you might say.
But that implies that he will only realize a return on his investment when he sells his shares, or when he starts to draw down dividends. That then has two consequences.
Let’s take the dividend question first. The club currently breaks even by virtue of its diminishing property sales income (hopefully compensated from an improved future commercial income).
Clearly if he takes the divis, he will have to cut back on one or both of the club’s major outgoings, the players salaries or the transfer budget. Not what we want to hear!
Alternatively, if he does not want to go that route, there is the increase in the share value available to him or his estate, if he eventually wants/needs to sell, (and he is not a charitable institute but a business man, remember) and that could occur if he suffers illness or death, which would inevitably crystallize that event.
Either way, depending on who he sells his shares to, or how much he takes out as dividends is actually not necessarily going to be to the long term benefit of the fan.
Finally, what are the benefits to Arsenal from a Share Rights Issue, you ask? Well the purpose of such an issue, as I said earlier, is to raise additional capital for investment into the club.
There will be a dilution in the value of the shares, but where there are only limited numbers of shareholders this can be managed.
These things need careful planning, but that is why people like me get employed! 🙂
Other than that, there is little downside.
It will not happen in the unhappy situation at arsenal, where the shareholders are at loggerheads.
There is more I could say, but that is enough for a nice Sunday afternoon! 🙂
micky @ 11.42
Is that a reference to Mr ‘come on you rip roarin reds’ who used to stand behind the goal on the bank in the eighties?
Used to find myself standing near him when I was a youngun. Must admit, he used to annoy the hell out of me with his predictability, but sticks in the memory though.
Someone once told me he broke his foot once and had to be carried out by stewards, much to the amusement of the rest of the bank
good post RA…
Dandan i have never doubted your remarkable and honest support for The Arsenal,in fact i do admire that…still imho you live in a fairytale…sport is all about the moment ..it has always been,winning is the essence of sport..if it hadnt sport will be a waste of time…
as far as kroenke goes..we all know he is earning tons of money from the Arsenal every second that ticks..where does our money go..well we’re paying off Emirates far more hasty than we had to originally…who benefits..??..
finally thanks for not posting most of my posts,as they are offensive and not in line with most of you on this blog..i understand that its far more convinient and cosy to just put them in the bin…
i tend to hate all isms in the world..including Wengerism..
Hi Terry Baby, 🙂
Have you been at the bottle? 🙂
We agree, Arsenal are a great club, and always will be, despite the current shenanigans.
These things tend to go in cycles and fears for the future of Arsenal are unfounded in my opinion.
Glasgow Rangers were not owned by an Oil Magnate/Oligarch and were supposed to be self financing.
I am not privy to what has gone on there, but it seems there has been some ‘accounting anomaly’, but what is obvious is that it has absolutely nothing to do with ‘sustainable financial models’ or filthy rich Oligarchs!!
Regardless of all that, Rangers, with their fantastic fan base and proud heritage will continue well into the next century!
I do not need to tell you that, of course, because it is self evident to anyone with half a brain! 🙂
If this article is to be believed then we can except nothing to change for the length of AW’s contract.
……………………………………………………………………………
Wenger’s not for turning
July 8, 2012
By ESPN staff
Arsene Wenger has insisted he has no plans to rework his philosophy of developing young talent to turn Arsenal into a big-spending club.
Arsenal’s frugal ways is one of the major reasons behind Robin van Persie’s decision to abort talks over a new contract with less than 12 months to run. The Dutch striker is concerned at a lack of ambition being shown by the Gunners.
Despite this Wenger does not feel it is just cause to deviate from his current plan of action – modelling his team on Johan Cruyff’s Ajax from the 1990s which was built on their famed academy.
But Wenger also launched a thinly veiled attack on those players who have chosen to desert his troops.
“I totally agree with Cruyff and I won’t change,” Wenger is quoted as saying by the Sun. “The only sad thing is that sometimes your work is destroyed by others. You want to see a player in his prime doing it for your club. But it does not work like that all the time.
“I am a victim of that. I lost Samir Nasri, Gael Clichy and Cesc Fabregas at an age where they should have been playing their best football for Arsenal. But I never left the club when I could have.
“I could have left 10 times to join another club but I didn’t because I have worked with the same vision and philosophy at Arsenal for the last 16 years – and that won’t change.
“Besides, money was never a motivation for me. And, in a similar way, people like Cruyff don’t put all their energy in building football teams with young players just for the money. We all do this because we want to give something back to football.”
Very,very disappointed about RvP. I expected so much more from him. Shabby end to an inconsistent Arsenal career.
As to the ownership: The more I read the more confused I become. Gut feeling is pro- Kroenke but then again a man with a moustache and no beard is unquestionably dodgy.
Hi Redders, dont think i know were the bottle begins or ends these days. hahaha.
I do honestly believe that the suger daddy approach will fizzle out. A combination of ffp and vastly increasesd revenues will spell its end.
Its also my opinion that neither Kronke or Usmanov would mess about with the day to day running of the Club. Arsenal is a great brand with a superb internal culture. Obviously neither man is a fool, and will leave well alone.
So what is the big difference between the two? not a lot in my opinion. We will win things who ever has the majority shareholding and both will make money from the increased vaule of there shares
One thing i will say about Usmanov is this. He spat his dummy out with that open letter because he obviously wants more shares and is been a bit disingenuious with the truth. As ive said, the reality is that there would not be much diference if he were to take over, and this certainly is the case in the medium to long term.
https://twitter.com/thekeithchegwin/status/221978914636038144
Nonces and grasses wear moustaches. usmanov would know that old prison saying. Raddy
Nicely put, Terry.
If the Post achieves anything it is to shine a light on the two competing philosophies, and shows that you need a long spoon if you sup with the devil!!
And how powerless we fans are.
I need to start saving for my haircut GM, so how many noughts after the 1 am I looking at? 🙄
I’d do you a very good deal RA!
Dandan/GN5,
Do either of you have electronic access to the Sunday Times article by Johnathan Northcroft regarding our salaries policy?
It makes for very fine reading, if you can put it up.
Well, I will definitely treat myself, GM!! 🙂
Redders, ive ben cutting my own barnet for the last 20 years, sometimes with disastrous consequences. hahaha.
I asked GM what he thought of my cut when i met him and i think he felt sorry for me and politely said “bit to long on the top” hahaha.
Paddy,
“Is that a reference to Mr ‘come on you rip roarin reds’ who used to stand behind the goal on the bank in the eighties?” Indeed. 🙂
Raddy,
Return to the mountains. All will be well next time you come lower. Hope you are having a great time.
I said i could fix it though Terry!
I can put up that article by Jonathan Norcroft …………….
On Stan.
Just suppose you have the odd three billion notes. Just suppose that you are not bothered about having more for your personal needs. Just suppose that you simply like sports. Just suppose the global financial picture offers few genuinely safe places to deposit your readies. What do you do?
Running on empty
Club hierarchy’s rotten contract policy at the core of Arsenal’s woes and must change or captain Robin Van Persie won’t be last to go
Jonathan Northcroft Published: 8 July 2012
AT KIEV’S Olympic stadium last Sunday, Arsène Wenger looked queasy. Working for French television, he was explaining how a team he said “betrayed” good football, Spain, had won Euro 2012 so sublimely.
This past week has not been great for Wenger and his judgment. He said in March Arsenal “will not lose anybody to Manchester City, or to anybody else, because we want to keep our players” yet Robin van Persie has rather ridiculed that. On Wednesday Van Persie released an extraordinary declaration that he won’t extend his contract and disagrees “in many aspects” with how Wenger and the chief executive, Ivan Gazidis, envision Arsenal progressing.
A summer where Arsenal, seven years without a trophy, were supposed to build has become another where the priority is to stop more bricks falling off the edifice. In 2005, Patrick Vieira; 2006, Jose Antonio Reyes; 2007, Thierry Henry; 2008, Mathieu Flamini; 2009, Emmanuel Adebayor; 2010, William Gallas.
In 2011, Cesc Fabregas and Samir Nasri joined the list of players, prized by Wenger, to engineer summer exits from Arsenal. And in 2012? A year ago this week The Sunday Times wrote: “Van Persie, poised to replace Fabregas as captain . . . next summer he could be in the position Nasri is now with a year left on his contract, wondering about Arsenal’s direction. That could also apply to Theo Walcott.” We were hardly soothsayers.
One Arsenal shareholder said last week: “Last summer was calamitous not because of Nasri and Fabregas — it was already too late to keep them — but because Robin and Theo Walcott were not signed up to longer deals. Next year, will it be Alex Song?”
Song’s deal expires in 2014 and the fear is in 12 months he’ll be in Van Persie’s position. Walcott, like Van Persie, is a free agent in 2013. He, too, is pursued by big suitors and has a decision to make when he returns from holiday next week.
Van Persie’s statement was not his cleverest but it was issued for genuine reasons. Arsenal are truly in his heart and he wants to be honest with supporters. A close friend attests that with him — unlike Nasri — it’s not about money.
Family is his prime motivation, then winning things, which Arsenal offered only in the first of his eight seasons with the club.If he wanted riches he could stay. Arsenal wanted to hand him their most lucrative player contract; one, including a huge signing-on bonus, that may have touched £150,000 a week. City will pay £225,000 a week but he is more drawn by football challenges elsewhere.
Moving to Barcelona or Real Madrid is his dream, though neither team, yet, are bidding. Inside football, there is talk of Manchester United interest; if that materialised Van Persie could be enticed.
Right now, principal competition to City comes from Juventus and Paris Saint- Germain. Wenger might talk of making Van Persie see out his contract but that threat proved empty with Nasri last year.
How Walcott’s situation is drifting encapsulates Arsenal’s unique approach to retaining players. Contract talks were mooted by his representatives back in December but by February just one informal meeting had taken place.
Proper negotiations were postponed until the season ended, then until after Euro 2012. Now discussions are unlikely until August. In the meantime Chelsea have registered interest and, after Walcott’s good Euros, Tottenham and, yes City.
Like Van Persie, he is not money-driven but given other England wingers — James Milner, Stuart Downing, Ashley Young, Adam Johnson, even Shaun Wright-Phillips — earn more at other clubs, Arsenal have left themselves vulnerable again.
Gazidis has a rather curious take on letting player contracts run down. At a Q&A session with Arsenal Supporters Trust (AST) he presented the fact that it happens so often at Arsenal as almost a positive. “If we never had players coming to the end of their contracts then we’re saying yes to too many demands,” he argued.
Gazidis champions the “self-sustaining” model of the majority owner, Stan Kroenke — lacerated in an open letter to Arsenal’s board from Alisher Usmanov, a 30% shareholder. Both Kroenke and Usmanov are billionaires yet neither puts any money into their club — not that this has stopped Kroenke leaving open the possibility of taking dividends from the business or raising season-ticket prices to the highest in world football.
Usmanov’s letter argues that Kroenke makes it inevitable Wenger will have to keep selling top players. AST proposes a sale of new shares to raise fresh funds until Arsenal can renegotiate major commercial deals in 2014. Kroenke opposes a scheme that would force him either to put money into Arsenal or dilute his shareholding.
“AST will continue to urge Arsenal to consider how extra cash can be injected into the business. A small rights issue is sustainable and it seems only fair that owners as well as supporters invest into the club,” said the trust’s spokesman, Tim Payton.
With Arsenal’s wage bill now merely fifth highest in the Premier League and falling ever further behind rivals’, football’s financial landscape is challenging. But not everything, despite what Gazidis implies, can be blamed on sheikhs and greedy players. Wenger’s judgment, once such a marvel, has never looked less reliable.
He has spent recently, since May 2010 paying £90m in transfer fees for a motley group of footballers including Park Chu-Young, Sebastien Squillaci, Andre Santos, Gervinho, Per Mertesacker and the are-you-serious? Carl Jenkinson. Only the capture of Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain offers recent evidence that Wenger’s talent-spotting knack remains alive. For half the price of Gervinho, Newcastle plucked Yohan Cabaye and Hatem Ben Arfa from France: even in his “home” market Wenger gets beaten nowadays.
Van Persie is plainly not impressed by this summer’s buys, Lukas Podolski and Olivier Giroud. It’s five seasons since Arsenal finished even within 10 points of the Premier League winners. Of Europe’s 20 highest-earning clubs, only Hamburg (18th) have waited longer for a trophy than Arsenal (5th). The story is not Van Persie’s going — but that he stayed so long.
What does chutzpah mean RA. Be back in a few hours when i have looked up another thirty odd words 🙂
Micky – depositing them is one thing, it’s quite another to get a good return!!!!
kelsey 🙂
Tomstoned. My life may well be a fairy tale; after all I have had the pleasure of 60 plus years of following the Arsenal. Whereas your posts seem to owe more to pessimism than enthusiasm, but if that is your reality, then so be it. But contrary to your winning stipulations I would add, Sport is also about the spirit of the game and the Cruyff /Wenger gospel is one I am happy to live by.
As far as your posts not appearing are concerned, I know nothing of that, but if your language falls outside the criteria of this blog then yes in all probability that may well have happened.
The machinations of our Russian shareholder on the back of the RVP statement have amused me greatly, even were the inconceivable true and Robin really not be motivated at all by money, it would be a rare agent or representative who is not.
To be fair though I see no difference between an agents striving to spend the clubs money on his client or the disaffected fans yearning to challenge financially those clubs to whom money is of as much importance as integrity is to many of today’s politicians .
Micky,
you could buy marbella and wait ten years and make a killing and with the loose change bring back frannie jeffers.
I am sorry if you think I am being flippant but like dandan, been there,seen it and wore the T shirt.
whatever will be will be.
Kelsey, you little devil!!! 🙂
You have definitely got Chutzpah!! 🙂
You’ll be telling me I am a meshuganah next!! 🙄
Re the Northcroft article: “after Walcotts good Euros….”. Did this man watch the tournament? An excellent cross and a fluke goal don’t make a good tournament for me.
Can’t take the man seriously if he’s going to write patent nonsense.
Kelsey, you should be ashamed of yourself.
Give Dandan his T Shirt back!!
Que sera sera.
Red Arse,
you are a meshuganah 🙂
Can’t really deny it Kelsey! 🙂
Peaches,
I think Stan is playing the long game. His return will be in the massive increase in value of his portfolio, which may not be realised for who knows, five years, maybe twenty. He clearly thinks the value of his investment will grow at a rate he is happy with.
However, I don’t suppose he foresaw the enjoyment of his investment clouded by the appearance of Fatty.
Kelsey,
Frannie 🙂
Chas and Mr Glic, 🙂
I read yesterday evening’s comments with a great deal of interest this morning.
They got a bit testy at times, but you two made me laugh out loud with your outrageous but humorous interjections.
Thank you both. A little humour never hurts! 🙂
Herb,
I am beginning to suspect you have vampire tendencies.
Up all hours of the night, and then with the rising sun you disappear! 🙂
@ Peaches Jabba wants to bring up the rights issue at every opportunity because he doesn’t have anywhere else to go. Why? Well he lost out you see. In another way he was kind of sold a pup, and not the dog he thought he was buying.
1st) David Dein commits a faut pas (It is in the English Dictionary for those amougst us who aren’t Francophones even though we are the most French of clubs)
Without consulting the other members of the board he invites Kroenke and his capital in (knowing that Lady Bracewell Smith is thinking of selling her late husbands Arsenal shares).
The other members of the board take umbridge especially DD’s one time good friend chief shareholder Danny Fiiszman who accuses DD of treachery and grossly overstepping his authourity. Fiszman is so outraged by DD’s actions in not consulting the other board members that he calls a board meeting at which a vote is held and DD is stripped of his board membership and removed from the ground by Fiszman (Frog-marched out without his Arsenal contact mobi’s is how one insider put it to me).
As DD had been uncerimoniously thrown out on his ear by the board IMHO he decided to wreak havoc and revenge himself on the (holier than thou) board by creating Red & White Holdings and selling this company (therefore his shares) to the most unsavoury business character he’d come across.Thinking if you don’t want me how’d you fancy “him” (Jabba the Uzz) on your precious board?
I think he told Usmanov that with his (DD’s) help they’d get control of the shares needed for Jabba to end up as the chief share holder and it might actually have happened if Danny Fiszman hadn’t moved quickly and persuaded the board and Kroenke to enter into a pack of non-share selling for an extended period. DD & Jabba were out flanked, the major shareholders had time to get to know Kroenke and concluded that in many ways Dein had actually brought along a proper invester, it was just the backhanded method he’d used that was so objectionable.
The rest as they say is History!
Jabba can’t get hold of the shares he needs for control unless Kroenke sells them to him, his only weapon in trying to get those shares is to try to get the supporters to end up wanting Kroenke out and Kroemke becoming disillusioned and leaving. Hence him continuiosly coming up with the share option idea. Arsene gets big bucks in order to strengthen the squad in exchange for the shares Jabba needs for control. For myself I don’t fancy the Manu’er supporting Jabba getting control, and I don’t want my club getting into debt, the way Portsmouth & Rangers did for very obvious reasons. Imagine if you will the consequences of Putin getting pissed with Roman or Him unexpectedly kicking the bucket. Abromoviches kids might not share his passion for having a very big boys toy. Where would the Chav’s be then?
We might not be where the trophe hunters want us to be but we ain’t in a bad place and who knows if the fair play rules do come in and work, we’ll be sitting pretty.
Richie,
Very good summary of the SK Fatso situation.
Think about how man fans at other clubs moan about intrusive chairman, and some fans ought to remember how well run Arsenal was for generations by a family from whom you never heard a squeak.
Off walkies.
Richie
You ask the question: where would the chavs be then?
I have a go at answering at 11:44 this morning.
Thank you for putting that piece together.I am a fifty year old Gooner who is a supporter of the sustainable viablle model of operating the club.I would love if Wenger and Bouldy could emulate Clough and Taylor and get a collection of shrewd signings to win the major domestic and European titles andbring back those glory days.
It would be great to find a new Rocky,Paul Davis and Michael Thomasto support Jack Wilshire.
Nice one Federer.
Well played Andy Murray your day will come.
Michael Farmer
Compared to some you are a mere whippersnapper, there are quite a few proud Arsenal supporters in their seventies on here. In my non official capacity I hope you feel welcome.
We may not have a Wimbledon champion but in the next two weeks we looking more likely than ever to have our first ever Tour de France winner.
Go Brad.
Great post Redders
In our current self sustaining model, we might not buy any “Super Quality ” players, but I am now “Super Quality” Intelligent “, thanks to you, over this past year, I have learned new words that would fuse ” Hawking`s ” electrical brain !.
I said I would give FFP 5 years and then make up my mind, that was a year ago. I agree with Terry, I think it`s starting to take affect, but must admit to wavering at times and with the news that Gazidas is a double agent I may become a bit paranoid aswell !. 😯
With everything I`ve read, both sides sound as good as each other, they all make convincing arguments, which just leads to massive confusion and I dont like being confused, the last time I was this confused was when I was with a party of Arsenal Alzheimer `s ( yes another AA ) at a game , the oppo` fans chanted , ” Who are Ya ,who are ya, who are ya “, and we replied, ” We dont know, we dont know , we dont know………..! “. We then sung to them , ” Who are we, who are we, who are we ! “, followed by, ” One ……..?, there`s only one……..?, one………?, there`s only one ……..?.
Great post, RA.
In some ways, I preferred the pre-internet days where, if you didn’t set out to discover background financial information about your club, it just didn’t cross your horizon. Nowadays, agents are well known, players sell their skills to the highest bidder and billionaires have their publicity-seeking egos massaged by the obscenely-rich football business. It all leaves me feeling a bit nauseous.
Whoever the main shareholder in Arsenal Football Club is, doesn’t really concern me as long as he or she or them have the best interests of the club at heart. I’d prefer them to be lifelong Arsenal fans, but those days seem to be over. How can Abramovich have any real love for Chelsea when he could just have easily have bought the spuds and achieved the same thing. Or the sheikhs really know what Man City is all about. The same goes for Kroenke and Usmanov. None of that seems to matter any more, so all that concerns me is my relationship to the club I’ll always love.
‘Embracing mammon’ reminded me of going to church as a child and being puzzled by the phrase.
I had a quick google and found these two drawings representing Mammon. They look more like Jabba than Syrupboy to me. 🙂
p.s. Thanks for the 5:02 mention. Making people laugh is my favourite thing in the whole world. Being miserable is bad for the soul.
The question of FFP actually has a bearing on the debate today.
If we were solely owned we could stretch our money a bit further (30% overspend off top of my head) as a publicly traded company it is 10% (again off top of my head). If UEFA decide that either City or Chavs have overspent (or anyone for that matter) they have two options..1 is to sit out UEFA competition (unlikely) the second is to convert some of the debt to Equity….a retrospective Rights Issue if you like.
Richie pointed out earlier that in effect Usmanovs time to stick mega money in has gone we are already in the first measurement period (3 years) but contracts agreed pre FFP (like Tevez and I think possibly Yaya Toure’s) can be excluded from the measurement (last time I looked at the rules).
Too true chas, theres` only one thing better than having a laugh and thats having a laugh at the Spuds !. 🙂
GLiC….you sure make me laugh…..keep it up.
Chas I love (most, he he ) your clips.
LB does Brad winning the TDF affect his chances of Olympic success, does he compete in road races at Olympics or track, from memory the road races have an element of lottery at the Olympics. There’s a lot of questions there….sorry.
Final one is TDF more important than Olympic Gold to Brad?
Oh and one more will Cavendish complete Tour I heard earlier in week he was struggling in race for green (?) jersey and there was a few days of mountains to encounter.
Oh another final one what do you make of the Armstrong allegations, seems a shame that his reputation has been sullied with drug abuse suspicion.
Hi Chas, Glicster and VCC, 🙂
Just got back and read the opus from the Glic, and fell about again. You are really so clever my man, that soliloquay was brilliant. 🙂
Chas, you and your vids are legendary, but last night it was just you! I particularly loved the 41,000 repeated over 3 ‘sends’, like a visual stutter!! Loved the comic effect, but your humour is so dry and just suits my tastes down to the ground. Not just a Vid Master, but a Chuckle Maestro too !!
I am disappointed in my man VCC. Where have you been lately? Your little jokes are missed!! 😦
Three people who contribute so much goodwill on AA……………but where is Terry? 🙂 Last I heard GM was threatening to take his topknot!!
Red Arse…..my work commitments keep me busy during a seven week cycle of 12 hour shifts, I try and keep my hand in occasionally.
I have 2 weeks off now, so hope to participate much more.
I try and read all posts, but lately they have been far too heavy for me, I am more the light hearted blogger.
Hi RA,
I think today proves why so many people clamour for you to write more.
Thank you for your comment this morning, that is very high praise indeed.
There are a plethora of wonderfully humourous, intelligent people on here that inspire simple folk like me to raise their game, and you always set the bar very high, so thanks again to you and the rest of the ‘baying mob’.
Hi Herb. I did not ignore you earlier but by the time I mastered word press a new post was put up by Rasp.
As you know QPR are close to my heart and thank you for your comments. I have higher hopes for them this coming season, hopefully they will avoid the drop.
Hi GIE,
Here is an extract from UEFA’s published rule book explanation.
It is not complete as you need to factor in the qualifying period.
FFP explained:
The finances of clubs will be monitored by UEFA to ensure that they don’t lose more than a specified amount.
If clubs go over the threshold they will not be given a licence to play in the UEFA competitions (i.e the Champions League and Europa Cup).
To even out one-off events the monitoring will eventually be done over a three year period (although the first Monitoring Period looks at the accounts over two years).
The first Monitoring Period has started and will look at the finances of clubs in the 2011/12 and 2012/13 seasons.
Club accounts are always produced after the season ends so we are unlikely to know the first results of the 2011/12 season until Autumn 2012.
The main areas explained:
Amortisation
Although we often talk in terms of players being ‘bought’ or ‘sold’, what actually changes hands is ‘the right to acquire the player’s contract’.
The cost of buying the ‘right to acquire the player’s contract’ needs to be amortised (or written-down) evenly over the duration of the contract.
For example, a player who cost £50m on a 5 year contract needs to be amortised at the rate of £10m a year.
At the end of a player’s contract, their ‘book value’ will therefore be zero.
The amount amortised each year needs to be counted as a ‘cost’ in the club’s FFP Break-Even calculations.
If a player is sold before the end of their contract, FFP rules require that the difference between their book value at that time and the sale price needs to be accounted for immediately in the club’s accounts.
Using the above example, the player signed for £50m on a 5-year contract would have a ‘book value’ of £20m when he has only two years to run on their contract. If he was then sold for £35m, the club would actually record a £15m profit for that year for FFP purposes (£35m – £20m).
Where a club extends a players’ contract, the book value at the time the contract was re-negotiated would need to be amortised over the duration of the new contract.
These rules apply to all players on a club’s books, irrespective of when they were signed (i.e. even if acquired before the commencement of the first FFP Monitoring Period).
Players signed before 1 June 2010
To ease the transition of FFP, the wages of any player signed before 1 June 2010 are not included in FFP Break Even calculations for 2011/12.
However this concession is for one year only and the wages are included for season 2012/13 and beyond. It is important to remember that the his concession only applies to an impacted player’s wages (the amortisation of the cost of acquiring the player’s contract needs to be carried in full over every year of the contract).
N.B. Where a player was originally signed before 1 June 2010, and negotiates a new contract before the end of
the 2011/12 season, the player’s re-negotiated wages would need to be included for the full new contracted amount within the FFP calculations for 2011/12.
Owners Equity
A club is only able to make the maximum Break Even Deficit in a Monitoring Period when a corresponding amount of equity is injected into the club.
Where the owner is not willing or able to inject equity, the club is only able to make a maximum loss of Euros 5m over the first two-year Monitoring Period.
Fair Value
UEFA are keen to ensure that owners do not artificially inject cash into the club as a way of circumventing the FFP rules.
Consequently:
They have set up a dedicated independent panel to review transactions made with ‘connected parties’ to ensure the transactions are carried out at a ‘Fair Value’. (Man Citeh with the national airline for £400m).
‘Connected parties’ include the club owners and any family of the owners who can influence the club. The panel are able to assign a ‘Fair Value’ rate to a transaction for the purposes of FFP calculations.
The ‘Fair Value’ may not necessarily be the same as the Market Value.
The Break Even Deficit must be decreasing over the qualifying period.
The rules state that a club’s Break Even Deficit has to be reducing in order to achieve the licencing criteria. Therefore, even if a club were to report a deficit that was below the maximum Break Even Deficit over a Monitoring Period, the club would still fall foul of the rules if their deficit was not reducing year-on-year.
Applying for a UEFA Licence:
As qualification for the UEFA competitions is usually only decided at the tail-end of the season, clubs need to apply for a Licence at the start of the season – i.e. before they know if they have actually qualified for the UEFA competitions.
Monitoring where UEFA identify a risk:
Where a club is viewed to be ‘at risk’ of failing to comply with the FFP requirements, UEFA intend to request interim financial reports in advance of the accounts that are produced at the end of the season.
UEFA published their 8 punishments for breaching FFP rules on the 4 April 2012
At the UEFA conference in Istanbul, UEFA ratified three more disciplinary measures for clubs that breach FFP rules.
The full menu of punishments now reads:
— Reprimand / Warning.
— Fines.
— Deduction of Points.
— Withholding of Revenue from UEFA competition.
— Prohibition to register new players for UEFA competitions.
— A restriction on the number of players that a club may register for UEFA competitions.
— Disqualification from a competition in progress.
— Exclusion from future competitions.
How do ya like dem potatoes? 🙄
Phew..Busy day today.. Seems like I missed a very good discussion here.
US sports run without worrying about financial sustainability because they exist in a much better regulated environment. There are rules for how much money can be spent with regards to wage caps, luxury tax shared around the league if you go above the wage cap, players contracts are only traded, not sold, and players cannot negotiate new contracts until their old ones have expired, even if they switch teams. Tapping up, even to the extent of an owner, coach, player making statements about how wonderful it would be to play with such and such player, are heavily and promptly punished. (I generalise when I say US sports, because most of my knowledge is based on what I know about the NBA) They also accept that the owner will put his money in only if he gets a profit out of it. In other words they see the owner-club relationship as a business deal where you profit, if you make us profit. Win-win.
That’s not to say they don’t have issues with ownership, and I’m sure there must be fans paying close attention, and yes..Worrying. Owners fairly routinely move teams to new ‘markets’, or cities. The stadia are generally built, and maintained by the city, and sometimes owners demand new stadiums (which the city is to pay for) as the price for staying in the city.
So..What is in it for Kroenke.. Well. He will look to make a profit out of Arsenal. He could always sell his stake for a profit, but he has never sold a single share he has bought in any of his sports teams. How does he intend to make money out of Arsenal? There are plenty of ways. Increasing merchandise sales in new markets, utilising his links with other sports teams. (ManU and Yankees signed a similar deal – Shame on you for supporting them RA 🙂 ) He could make money off the advertisments, subscriptions, and selling programme content to TV, through Arsenal Player (As far as I know, Arsenal’s media business is owned under a separate company, and these were the first shares that Kroenke bought) This is potentially a huge payday if, as Kroenke and others will push for, clubs are allowed to sell their own LIVE broadband rights. He will also use his experience to utilise the stadium for other events. There’s talk of the Ems hosting an NFL regular season game with the St.Louis Rams. You have the Coldplay concerts, X-Factor trials etc already happening at the Emirates. He could simply pay himself a higher salary or commission as recompense for getting new commercial deals signed. I’m not a businessman, and nowhere near as rich and succesful as Kroenke. I’m sure he could think up a 100 more ways to make some money using Arsenal. He’s in it for the profit. That isn’t a dirty word. It just depends on how he goes about it. It doesn’t have to be in a way that harms our club. It could be, but since owning sports teams seems to be his business, it doesn’t seem to be his preferred modus operandi.
You are welcome, Herb, and I meant it.
VCC, it will be good to see you on AA more often now your ‘tour of duty’ is changing for a while!!
Well this invalid has to bid you all a fond adieu before I get told off! And a big kiss for TerryM……………………from Glic!! 🙂
Hi VCC,
I caught your comment, I agree with you about Sparky.
I remember QPR tearing it up mid ’70’s, captained by Gerry Francis and finishing runners-up to Liverpool in ’76.
Someone told me ages ago about Stan Bowles (maybe you can help clarify the story). It is alleged that after producing his ‘magic’ he would either feign injury, or deliberately get himself sent off round about the half-time period so that he could get down to bet on the dogs at White City.
I think those stories were true Herb, Stan Bowles was a huge gambler. Oh the White City dogs, I went there a few times as a kid with my Dad.
When I retire I may have time to read his autobiography.
One of my dreams is to go on a world cruise and read autobiographies of all my favourite sportsmen.
Hi Shard, 🙂
Well said! Only wish I could stay and debate with you tonight.
I had an American friend who supports the Mets and we spent many a ‘quiet’ period on another footie site discussing this and that about all matters baseball, and bragging or moaning about our respective clubs/franchises.
We both supported the New York Giants which was also great.
I miss him and his updates and the ‘on the scene’ rumours and gossip now. We lost touch when I ‘transferred’ to AA. 😦 🙂
Anyway, must go. Tomorrow, perhaps!!
Great character though VCC, one that belongs to a lost generation.
Cheers RA, good health.
Good night Red Arse, I have to retire soon as I have to drive my Daughter to Heathrow Airport at 5 am, she’s off to Chicago, what a lucky so and so.
Hi RA, thanks for your fantastic replay @3.04. With regards to the rights issue I was hoping you could point out the risks to me. You know I am not an accountant, so this question might sound a little bit stupid:
Say, both, the Uzbek and American, would agree to raise an additional £200m for buying superstar players through a rights issue. The Uzbek is even happy for the American to buy the majority of the shares, so there are no additional power-struggle issues. And say, in order to be able to buy his percentage of the rights issue Kroenke would take out a loan: could he then put this loan on Arsenal’s books (as far as my limited accounting knowledge goes, I think he could do that)?
And would this mean the loan and associated interest payments would become the full liability of the club? And could Uzmanov do the same, even though he is not the majority shareholder?
I know you are unlikely to respond to these questions any more tonight, but hopefully you find some time tomorrow 🙂
RA thanks for the FFP update. The €5m excess is new to me in my head it was a percentage.
Hi TA – from my memory the AST felt that any loans that would be needed for the rights issue could taken out against the clubs future income from naming rights for example.
I’ll see if we can put RA’s comment about the FFP into a widget but Rasp has to do that.
GIE
That is a lot of questions
The easy ones first: For Wiggins winning the TDF is the Champions league, and the Olympic gold the League cup. A Brit has never won the TDF. This really is the big one.
If Wiggins wins the TDF there will be no parties in Paris he will go straight on to the Olympics. (9 day gap from memory) He could compete in both the road and the track but he will be part of the road team. (He can recover in 9 days)
Cavendish is in the TDF, he has won a couple of stages, he is nominally competing for the Green (points) jersey but I expect him to abandon the race soon. Cav won the Green last year; he will never win the TDF so the Olympic gold in London is more important to him. Pulling out early from the TDF enables him to stay fresh for the Olympics.
And lastly, Armstrong is guilty as sin. He is not a liked man in the cycling world hence the line of cyclists ready to give evidence against him.
RA
Dont you worry about ” Floppy “, he`s a bit tied up at the moment !.
He`s my little submissive gooner. He arrives in 1930`s gooner kit with big baggy shorts to hide his dysfunctional telescope and likes me to dress up as Napoleon and speak with an authorative French accent, saying things like, ” The spirit is good “, ” We showed good penetration up front “, ” I didn`t see It “, ” we had a lot of possession but couldn`t stick it in ” and ” How can I be taken serious, if I untie you and let you and your pet monkey go ” !. ( What do you mean, That is not a pet monkey but your cousin Pete ?, In that case, it will cost you an extra Kebab )
The other day he visited me and he was all agitated, he demanded that I dress up wearing clogs with a piece of Edam sticking out my rear end and talked with a Steve McClaren accent . I was quite taken back by this, he was so macho, he crushed a pack of digestives with his bare hands whislt having his wicked way with me , screaming, ” Roger van Persie” !.
Hope this has helped you as to his whereabouts.
TA I’m no corporate finance guy but the answer i think is no they couldn’t put a loan on the club to buy the shares by Rights Issue. But they could take a loan themselves (or via their company to buy the shares)
What they could do is what the Glazers and I think Hicks and Gilette did.
Both Usmanov and Kroenke own the shares through companies. Red & White Holdings is Usmanovs vehicle and Kroenke Sports Enterprise is Stans.
When the Glazers bought Man Utd PLC they formed a company called Red Football Ltd and borrowed money by way of loans secured on the assets of the football club. They also have a number of Payment in Kind Loans held by Red Football Joint Venture Ltd which only owns shares in Red Football Ltd, these loans are With Hedge Funds and repayable by 2017. If they fail to pay them back the club and all it’s assets would be in the hands of the hedge funds. Hence why they are currently floating a new co in the Cayman Islands which will own the new assets. All very clandestine and not a place I’d like to be.
Good wiki here :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glazer_ownership_of_Manchester_United
@ RA
brilliant post that always brings out top notch comments. Don’t want to repeat anything but Chas 7.21 hits the nail on the head for me. Cheers for explaining a lot of questions I had, and others like ritchie for clarifying it further.
@ Chas, Terry, and GLIC
i second RA’s and others comments, i’ve lost count over how many times you lot have had me in stitches.
@ Dandanite
cheers for that article
@ LB
the witch hunt aimed at Armstrong is getting old now. People are desperate to prove he is guilty because they are jealous at what he has accomplished, it’s as simple as that! They think it is unfathomable to have achieved what he did after going through what he did. Armstrong has done so much good in this world it is a shame to see so many try and take it away from him. The case against him has too many holes in it and will get thrown out quick smart.
Thanks for that LB. Pretty much figured the TDF is the pinnacle although wondered with Olympics only every 4 years don’t quite know why it’s so much more prestige than say the Tour of Italy though.
Shame about Armstrong tho….do you think any of his TDF wins are “clean”? Read his first book and was truly inspired by what he achieved. But if not clean and it’s all a lie.
I guess the good thing about Wiggins being an Olympic rider, and sponsored by BOA he has to comply to their strict anti doping regime so must be clean. I will probably know his face come end of the week but the only cyclist I would recognise is Hoy. Being one of our great sporting success stories of recent times it’s a shame they don’t get as much exposure/recognition as they deserve.
Nice one LB! I hope you played really well in your Arsenal shirt in your local park? I assume thats where you were headed at 11:44?
Never a truer word said in jest, and that my friend and fellow Gooner Bro is why being owned by a Spiv Russian ain’t my idea of whats good for “my club”! Well its Kroenke’s club I know but I know you’ll all know what I mean? I feel its mine as I’ve been been a conscious supporter for 47 years and an unconscious supporter for 54 years (under 6’s don’t know really know who they support do they)?
For a very long time I’ve thought that things with the Glazers @ Manu’er FC would end in tears. What a terrible thing that would be!
I think I might actually shed a tear or burst a blood vessel or even need oxygen. I’d be laughing that long that hard and that loud.
@ “you guys” (I can’t quite remember who’s catch phrase that was? Anyways no one important I’m sure) who are bringing up TTd F Armstrong and the doping charges, 1st off damned straight the TTd F athletes don’t get the credit they deserve its an incredibly tough sport. “The tour” has unfortunately been “snowed” under with drug takers (get it snowed under? oh never mind) with those thoughts in mind the coming oylimpic’s flashed before me and before I could close off the endless drip of my thoughts (well at least one thought every other day) I realised “I loved the idea of the FFP rules so much” I wished they could be just like the oylimic’s.You know applied retrospectively blood samples taken and analysed in years to come. American sprinter Marion Jones striped of her 5 gold medals not for failing dope test at the time but years later, the silver medalists promoted to gold. The Financial records studied financial doping identified, teams striped. If my memory serves me right didn’t we get 5 silver medals in the prem?:)
Is there anyone out there? Where’s the herbsman am I the only lunatic still awake? Not for long my eye lids feel neglected, good night “all”?
¨we currently are, sensible, well run, self sustaining, but inevitably doomed to a cycle of a diminishing world fan base and a resultant decrease in commercial financial worth, caused by the lack of silverware¨…..sorry but this statement is incorrect…our worldwide market share has risen since 2005 and we are very far from diminishing fanbase but have accrued 5% more fans since 2009.
@ TotAl & Tony I told you both Vertonghen was shit didn’t I? Now tell me I’m wrong? When he lines up against us this season in a shirt with his chicken balancing on a ball please don’t sing his praises.
@Herbsman from late yesterday or very early yesterday whatevers good for you? check deloitte’s financial reports regarding the state of our finances before you ask if we are a rich or poor club.
@ richie
we can only hope he is a massive flop at the scum.
@oz g I can only restate that I watched him play for Ajax a hand full of times and I wasn’t impressed! Both Tony & TotAl were impressed and he won the Dutch eresdivisie professional players vote as best player, so maybe I was wrong and as a player he’s better than I thought? Its now only a case of morals or more rightly a lack of moral fibre in chosing to play for those chicken ballancing bog dwelling scumbo’s. There can be only one or two conclusions having just left waterlogged Holland and as shit sinks to the bottom of the bog (like Shrek) he’ll be at home in the swamp, then again its rumoured his mother’s part heffa! Who’s to say which of the above is true? A case for Inspector Clouseau me thinks.
Morning,
How about a little Alex Song to start the day?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjbazhvwBe4
TA,
Looking at Song assists, did you tally up the results of your predictions post i.e. how many Song assists, clean sheets we would get etc. We could check our our predictions by looking back at the post.
https://arsenalarsenal.wordpress.com/2012/03/16/ten-games-to-go-how-will-it-end/
Hi Chas,
Great start. Strewth I hope I’m wrong and he really wants to be at Arsenal, AND he’s not flogged. Still think we need to raise some cash.
Micky,
I doubt he’d be sold now with his contract running to 2014.
http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/alex-song/profil/spieler_27394.html
Here’s a link to the table as it stood on March 13th, just before TA’s post.
http://www.statto.com/football/stats/england/premier-league/2011-2012/table/2012-03-13
Chas,
I’d be pretty happy if we went into the new season as we are. Whether AW sees things that way, who knows. Maybe a RvP swap deal with someone could be an option.
Euros done. Wimbledon done. Olympics (Mens 100 and 200m is about it for me) then the new season will be upon us.
Wouldn’t mind going to watch Brazil at the Olympics…mmmm. Off to google that one.
Wow, good squad:
Brazil 2012 Olympic Squad
Goalkeepers: Neto (Fiorentina), Rafael (Santos).
Defenders: Alex Sandro (Porto), Rafael (Manchester United), Danilo (Porto), Marcelo (Real Madrid), Bruno Uvini (Sao Paulo), Juan (Inter Milan), Thiago Silva (Milan).
Midfielders: Romulus (Vasco), Sandro (Tottenham), Oscar (Internacional), Paulo Henrique Ganso (Santos), Lucas Moura (Sao Paulo).
Strikers: Alexandre Pato (Milan), Hulk (Porto), Leandro Damiao (Internacional), Neymar (Santos).
They kick off in Cardiff July 26 against Egypt. Now to google tickets.
Looks like an evening out in Cardiff 🙂
I agree about the Olympics.
I was hoping the weather’s good and I can go camping/surfing.
Is there a Devon to Wales ferry?
Not yet, by the look of it.
http://www.severnlink.com/
Chas,
The ferry has been planned, even bought, then cancelled. Real bugger. It was Illfracombe to Cardiff.
There are still tickets. Fancy an away day match on the 26th?
Neymar and Oscar, a few Samba Girls on the streets before, what’s not to like. 7:45 KO. Three hour drive for us. Get up there mid afternoon. I’ll be checking work diaries in the next hour, speak to my Oscar, then to buy tickets. At least we will have attended one Olympic event.
Fancy joining us. If so, let me know how many of you, and I’ll buy the tickets.
You know it makes sense 🙂
Yip, that WAS the one. Bought and already sold.
Right you buggers organising games in the off season.
I am going to Olympic football at Coventry (Sunday 29th)
Mexico v Gabon
South Korea v Switzerland
Ok it’s not Brazil but more likely to find new Arsenal signings here…..you know you want to 🙂
Chas I think that’s a terrible idea to go and check those stats…..I was clearly having an off day! 🙂
Bingo,
Tickets bought.
Oscar, Neymar, Samba and some football.
🙂
morning all
I would like to see the club being pro-active in extending Song’s contract before the season starts, just so we don’t have to hear ‘I’m focusing on my game…going to wait at the end of the season…I’m not resigning’ again.
@ Micky
I was going to say wow Brazil have a very strong line-up for the Olympics but have you seen Australia’s team? But we failed to qualify because we couldn’t beat the United Arab Emirates! Wow we really are dreadful at football, although in fairness we are still getting over the screw over that occurred against Italy in the 2006 World Cup!
Oz,
I’m off to get you first hand feedback on Oscar.
My recruiting techniques have moved onto the next level.
haha now that is dedication Micky, sure as hell trumps my youtube clips and wiki stats!
Oz
“Thrown out quick and smart” (Armstrong) We will see. The people who are bringing these charges are not doing so becasue they want to sully the spot even more than it has been they are doing it becasue justice must be seen to be done.
TA,
GIE has pretty much answered your hypothetical Loan/Share Issue question, altho’ there is much more to it.
I will, in 100 words, or less, try and point out some of the considerations.
The Share Rights Issue and any Loan Funding are quite separate matters.
Any loan obtained from whatever third party source source would have to be repaid within an agreed time and suffer interest at a commercial rate (a bit like the mortgage on the Emirates) or it would fall foul of the tax man.
The company’s Memorandum and Articles of Association would have to permit these actions. [The rules by which the company operates]
The Glazers had acquired 100% share ownership so that made their scheme easier to administer. They actually borrowed the money from 3rd parties and secured the loan on their assets (which was in effect Man Yoo).
With the current shareholding split at Arsenal this is never going to happen.
Morning everyone else! 🙂
Peaches don’t use that FFP crib as it was off the top of my head, on the spur of the moment, and not fully researched.
I, (or perhaps GIE) can work it up a bit more and produce a better synopsis.
Laters.
@ LB
it definitely will get thrown out AGAIN, his lawyers have said it perfectly: “long on stale allegations disproved long ago and short on evidence”.
It has been a witch hunt from the beginning, and the sooner they move on and wrap their heads around the idea that he is a super athlete, the quicker the sport can go about rectifying it’s tarnished image. He has NEVER failed a drug test, and never will.
Morning all
Red Arse – fantastic post, I didn’t know it was your first!
I was away, so apologies if this has already been discussed – is Giroud to replace Robin van Prat? where will Podolski play? Is Theo going?
Wow
Just watched that clip of Alex Song that Chas put up this morning.
The Cameroonian Lion will be ready to roar at the beggining of the season.
Oz
Thrown out AGAIN but here’s the rub, it has never been investigated, do not be confused with the Federal case.
Armstrong continues to say he has never failed a drug test but if you can find me a quote in which he say he has never doped in any way I will fly you to London and personally take you to the Emirates.
Should just remind everyone that Kroenke has taken a loan to fund purchase of shares.
But the loan is not secured on AFC assets and that is the vital difference to Glazers. And they are not from a bank (as far as I’m aware) but Loan Notes from KSE that suffer interest. If the Loan Notes act like Debentures do here (remember the North Bank financing) they can be sold to other parties for cash but they have a specific maturity date when the bond will be repaid.
I remember the protests against the bond, and sitting down on the North Bank trying to politely applaud the team out to demonstrate the atmosphere that would result. It lasted for 5 seconds before the buzz took over and everyone rose to welcome the team.
RA don’t leave me with responsibility of FFP unravelling, far too many clauses and non plain English to unravel.
Oz is going to be away on google for a while 🙂
From his website:
“I have been notified that USADA, an organization largely funded by taxpayer dollars but governed only by self-written rules, intends to again dredge up discredited allegations dating back more than 16 years to prevent me from competing as a triathlete and try and strip me of the seven Tour de France victories I earned.
“These are the very same charges and the same witnesses that the Justice Department chose not to pursue after a two-year investigation. These charges are baseless, motivated by spite and advanced through testimony bought and paid for by promises of anonymity and immunity.
“Although USADA alleges a wide-ranging conspiracy extended over more than 16 years, I am the only athlete it has chosen to charge. USADA’s malice, its methods, its star-chamber practices, and its decision to punish first and adjudicate later all are at odds with our ideals of fairness and fair play.”
He states, “I HAVE NEVER DOPED, and, unlike many of my accusers, I have competed as an endurance athlete for 25 years with no spike in performance, passed more than 500 drug tests and never failed one. That USADA ignores this fundamental distinction and charges me instead of the admitted dopers says far more about USADA, its lack of fairness and this vendetta than it does about my guilt or innocence.”
Lance Armstrong also states, “LB, Oz feels he will be uncomfortable flying for such a lengthy period in economy so he would like a Business class ticket, thank you.”
Really looking forward to meeting you Oz 🙂
Oz – see you at the Tavern soon 🙂
I read Armstrong book several years ago, but I am certain that he vehemently denied ever taking performance enhancing drugs
Oz, can you bring me back some memorobilia please…pretty please? 🙂
cheers Micky, like wise. RA get yourself better, TA park on Evonne’s lawn, Harry get out from under your doona, Terry straighten up your syrup, GM clear your schedule, Peaches load up your jacket with Chas, Glic, Rocky, and Big Daddy, GiE clear your throat, 26…case closed for recess…….Oz’s coming for pre-match drinks!
Tony – I see you were forced to change your nickname. Perhaps too early? I still think he should be made to stay the term of his contract.
Morning all,
thanks for the fantastic post Redders…top shelf my friend!
i too have found myself waivering at times especially when i hear wenger say that others undo and destroy his work, but in truth i do respect what our great club is setting out to achieve..
its really hard to comment and back myself as i believe i have a long way in finishing my apprenticeship on this site and all things Arsenal so like GLiC i shall take the back seat and enjoy the points made by both sides…
im prepared to give this FFP a go before i blurt out something i may regret, but in saying that i do get pissed off when we lose our better players consistently..
Oz, love your gravatar…
Evonne, welcome back 🙂
Evonne, me too although i think its unrealistic for where we stand…
in regards to Robin, i hate that he broke up his 8 yr relationship with us via a letter…only a bitch would do that and Robin is a bitch!
Be a man and talk to us face to face…”you guys” pff, what a… (censored)
I’ll see what I can do Tony, I might had room to fit you in my suitcase haha.
Don’t hold back we all love a debate, let your voice be heard.
@ Evonne
welcome back
Morning all
I know I`m going over old ground here, but you laughed when I told you that our mate Tony ( the artist formally known as rurp with a brief encounter as Egor ) could get to Wimbledon from the Ems in 35 mins by car, wel I googled again yesterday and aparrantly you can get to Wimbledon from Stamford Bridge by car in 11 mins. John Terry did it in 2 mins to pick up Federer`s trophy !.
um, doubt it oz…unless you believe you can fit a 6”4 bloke in your suitcase, and im not as “bendy” as Micky’s formations 🙂
It started with woolly hats, then scarves, then flights from Australia, next the sofa, then the house.
LB you need an interventionist 🙂
hahahahhahahhahahahahahhahahhahahhahahahahhhahahahhahhahahahahhahahhahhahhahahhahhahhahhahhahahahhahahhah..
or as henrychan would say
hehehehehehhehehehhehehhehehehehhehehehhehehhehehhehehhehhehehhheehhhehhehehehhehehhehehehhehehehehhehehee
Like the avatar Oz
I think LB should chuck in a surfing holiday down in Cornwall on top, you and Tony can share the driving, I`ve just googled it, 5 hours 30 mins from the Ems to Newquay !. 😆
GiE – agree, you’d think that LB had enough sense than to bet again 🙂 clearly he has more money than sense 🙂 Still, it will be good to meet Oz
I should add, thats by car and we drive on the same side of the road as you, unlike the Philistine`s who drive on the wrong side of the road !. 🙂
Many thanks for a great effort Red.
I’m pro self sufficiency…100%
drive? i have a kangaroo and prefer the hop skip and jump
hahahahahaha GiE
my lawyer 26 is drawing up the contract now. Apparently writing on AA is law abiding.
@ Tony
I’ll just have to bring a canoe to England and shove you in it then!
@ GLIC
done and done, and a brew with you and the fisherman’s friends
Morning all
New Post ………………..
Welcome back evonne
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