Almost all Arsenal fans are desperate for a DM. Why?
Well, because there is a collective belief that our defensive vulnerability stems from the lack of a strong, disciplined DM. One can point to a number of goals conceded which have come as a result of MF’s being too far upfield, or too central, or too slow in back-tracking. Is it the players or the system?
Let us assume it is the personnel and start with Alexander Song Billong. Is Song too attack minded to be our holding midfielder? Can he tackle? Does he have enough tactical awareness and if not, can he be taught? In my opinion, he is an excellent player but one who is inconsistent; he can be brilliant in one half and totally incompetent the next. His ability to find RvP with the dinked ball over the defence has given him a number of assists, but has it also reduced his effectiveness as a DM?
The assist for RvP’s goal at home to Dortmund was one of the highlights of the season and would indicate Song can play well higher up the pitch, but is he really good enough to be our creative MF? Not in my opinion.
Frimpong and Coquelin are certainly more focussed defensively, yet both are too young and inexperienced to take such a responsibility. Coquelin looks to have all the skills necessary to be a first team regular and yet there are doubts that he can step up and take Song’s place. Would a midfield of JW, Arteta and Coquelin be creative enough or defensively solid?
Frimpong has many positives but two severe injuries at such a young age and in a player whose main attribute is as a hard man must raise questions.
Ramsey and Diaby are both too offensive to be considered for the role. If I were Mr Wenger I would be looking to sell Diaby (not that anyone will buy him), and send Ramsey on loan. Ramsey will become a fine player but needs to get physically stronger and more confident in order to influence a game.
Or is the problem the system? Early Wenger teams had the luxury of excellent DM’s in PV4 and Gilberto Silva. I guess AW hoped Flamini or Denilson could have carried on the tradition but it wasn’t to be. Those early teams had very consistent defenders who rarely left their own half. Apart from one or two exceptions and set plays, can you remember TA, Bould, Sol, Kolo, Gallas, Keown etc going over the halfway line? However, times have changed and so has our playing style, other than Mertesacker all our defenders have attacking ability and are prone to venture forward, it is the DM’s role to cover such eventualities – but what if the defenders stayed in position?
In Big Raddy’s opinion, the problem lies at the feet of Song. He is a wonderful player but not disciplined enough to play in an Arsenal team which is set up in this fashion. It is no coincidence that we struggled without the discipline of Arteta. If we buy another DM and include Song, it leads to Arsenal playing with two DM’s which doesn’t fit our attacking style. So, we would buy this player because Song isn’t a good enough DM. And yet Song IS a fine player and adds much to our team, the problem is how and where to play him.
Do we need a defensive midfielder? Absolutely, but how Mr. Wenger develops a midfield choosing from: A new DM, Song, Arteta,Diaby, Ramsey, Rosicky, Lansbury, Denilson, Frimpong, Coquelin, Wilshire and Oxlade-Chamerlain, I have no idea.
Written by BigRaddy
Arsenal News 24/7
arsenalarsenal.net 
[…] Do we Really need another Defensive Midfield player? […]
Hi Raddy… your post makes excellent midnight reading here in California. I’ve been puzzling about the whole DM question myself and why this is so strongly on the agenda: if we buy another DM, who goes to the bench? The idea of benching Song, often the one player in midfield who can really pick apart the defense with a pass, seems atrocious to me. I think with the lack of a creative midfielder to fill Cesc’s shoes was the real miss last year — neither Ramsey or Rosicky being inconsistent and on their best days, not nearly as good as Cesc. Perhaps this put pressure on players further back to step up and make something happen — and Song certainly did that on a number of occasions.
Great to hear from you CG. I was thinking about you yesterday – you didn’t reply to my last email!
Hope all is well in California.
Morning all, Raddy an interesting debate starter.
I’d rather a player like Arteta than Parker. Parker is a true DM his game is based on break up and give. Silva was so underrated at Arsenal by fans until he went. What Silva and Arteta both have is an inbuilt ability to see where the danger is coming from, but they are/were more capable on the ball than Parker.
Our problem is not necessarily the style or the system it is the players, who at times are not willing to make a sacrifice for the good of the team. Whether that sacrifice means curbing their attacking tendencies or putting their body on the line. That said our attacking system needs attacking full backs to contribute to give width, it doesn’t need two/three attacking midfielders to crowd the 18 yard box. And this isn’t just in the DM position, but in CB where TV5 was having the tendency to go AWOL, or at LB and RB where our full backs get caught up the pitch as if on automatic pilot and not with their brain engaged to think “am I needed up here right now?”
Song can with a partner like Arteta do both roles, with others I am not so sure. Is it Song who is the weak link or whoever his teammate when it’s not Arteta?
Love it Raddy.
Easy. Including the new DM, you list 12 players for three slots. As we speak, 2 are injured. 2 are not good enough and 2 should be on loan. That leaves 2 for each position which is what you need.
Yes we need defensive because to me Ramsey,Diaby,lansbury should be sold,they are non commited players injury prone,they should be replace wit Mvilla,bigla and couplain.
Good post and I couldn’t agree more, however I will say that the mentioned combination of JW/Arteta/Coq would absolutely rule the CL, there’s everything there to control any midfield (after that first leg against Barca last year though, I’m tempted to say that any midfield containing JW would just be able to dominate anything). The amount of games we play, I’d see a new holding midfielder as a rotational option and giving our midfield even more of an identikit approach, if we need two strong players we play ’em, if we need more creativity we play the more creative players and with such a range of players we should be able to tone our midfield to suit the match and there’s enough versatility there to pack the squad with midfielders as they can cover a few other positions too (like the Coq at FB and Song at CB); it’d be a good place to build from and, assuming a few key players stay, maybe a base to challenge the rich from.
Our full back moves forward all the time and always off position which is why we need to have a strong disciplined DM to do those covering work. Song can do excellent tackle but he is not that discliplined at all.. however, we of course can’t miss Song. If we have one more DM to play along with Song.. would that be too defend. Imagine we have one more DM to play along with Song. Either Wilshere or Arteta will play AM role which mean one of them will drop on bench…. can we afford… we all know the important to have a holding mid like Arteta and Wilshere. Two natural DM may not be enough to provide us a smooth distribution.. so basically, we can’t place another DM to play with Song… so the other question will be do we need to pay 17M plus for M’Villa.. If the new DM will be basically as a backup role.. 17M plus will be too much for us.. unless we can’t extend Song contract and will have to sell him
Yes Raddy, I owe you.
Yes we need dm and 3 killing straker
@ BR
morning Big Daddy, firstly good read, secondly expect the wrath of LB and some others today haha.
As i said last week I think Song has been told to play more attack minded. There is no way a manager would stand for a player repeatedly wandering up field. At the end of the day Song is bloody good at what he does! Whether that’s as a defensive midfielder that stays back, or a box to box midfielder. His strength and power allows him to take over the midfield.
I like the midfield we employed this season (with Arteta), it suits our play to a tee and leaves us less likely to be exposed. It is definitely the way forward as it’ll allow our AM to focus more on the attacking side of their game.
I’m happy seeing
DM: M’Vila, Coquelin, Frimpong
Box-to-Box: Wilshere, Song, Ramsey, Diaby (if ever)
AM: Rosicky, Ox, Wilshere, new signing
But at the end of the day i’d be more than happy to see Coquelin line-up as our DM next season and the Ox line up as our AM.
We need someone to play disiplined, Coquelin is good enough, but Wenger would have to only play 2 of Wilshere, Arteta, Song, Rosicky, Diaby which I doubt he would do. Our midfielders at the minute don’t understand the need to track the players running through
At last we have the chance to see some meaningful football, and there you are, Raddy, right on cue to give us another great pre-match.
Except ……………. instead, you have written a really interesting Post on a topic that has been raging for quite some time among the Arsenal afficionados.
Like you, I cannot work out how we will keep all our current midfielders at Arsenal, or at least keep them all happy with limited rotation, let alone making matters worse by adding more players to the mix.
My own view on the rumours that circulate whenever the transfer window opens, is that if a player, or his agent, says that Arsenal are interested in them ……………….. they will never be signed by Arsene.
This would apply to M’Vila, Biglia etc. I doubt that a defensive midfielder is required.
Sing Song is fine in the DM role with back up from Le Coq or Ping Pong.
Jack (injuries aside) will provide the creative flair we missed last season.
Arteta will mastermind the offensive/defensive link up, with backup available from a myriad of supporting players, including the Ox.
Nice Post. Thank you! 🙂
i’ll grab:
M’vila
giroud
affelay
gordon (backup keeper)
If RVP leaves then Llorente too
thanks Arsene
DickS & TeaTea. Thank you for your comments.
I am not convinced about the rotation system. It seems to me that a team works best when it has a settled first X1
I guess the selling of Song is the natural conclusion.
GIE. Surely the MF has to work as a unit. If 2 off the 3 venture up fiield, one MF has to hold. I cannot understand why this is problematical to players who are at the very top level. Furthermore, I think it is a waste of Arteta’s abilities for him to play the Parker role – he is a far more creative player. In other words … I agree with you 🙂
GIE,
If you have reverted to holiday mode, don’t worry about the following question, but I will ask anyway, just in case.
Recently, I have had to use my iPhone to check in to the chat on AA, but when there have been a lot of comments I have to do a lot of scrolling. What I cannot figure out is how I can refresh the page, without scrolling back to the top, and then scrolling back down.
Any ideas ……………… especially as I bought the thing on your Apple-y recommendation!! 🙂
Oz,
LB set sail for Denmark at 09:32am, shortly after the post went up, so Raddy has plenty of time before he “hears” from LB 🙂
hi,to my humble opinion ,i think the question mark lies down deep due to the system we play,we play far too offensive football that at times is breathtaking and brilliant,but dare we lose the ball and we are all but caught wide opened with one ball over the top ,oftenly with no adequate cover and we look like school boys footballers! to me its all down to Arsene(the system) ,some of our players need to be told to be grounded ,not leaving their posts only when required, critically is the def-mid and our centre backs(verminator).
what i would like to see more is versatility in our approach to some games,like when playing away at one of our rivals(top 6),we intend to play the same attcking opened football,we went to old trafford with half our squad either injured or suspended and we still kept on venturing forward ,simply we can’t do that at MnaU’s and expect to come away with three points,that was so naive and suicidal and the result reflects to that (8-2) ouch that hurts!there is nothing wrong with sitting back and make sure we dont concede firstly and make it difficult to the home team,and then wait for our moment,and we will score goals no doubt ,our problem we concede too many (76 to ,49 against),being versatile gives the opposition something to think about ,we have to have that element of surprise in our games that keeps the opposition thinking what tactics and formation we gonna come up with instead of playing a one-way street football all the time regardless of home or away and who’s against.
Oh dear RA,
Big blunder for a Sony Man like yourself. How many times do I need to tell you, Apples are toys used mainly by designery sorts with thin oblong brightly coloured spectacles and tight clothes.
BR,
I think you need players that know each others games and have an understanding, something that is often developed through having a settled first X! but it isn’t necessary and can have an adverse effect when you take into consideration the amount of games we have to play; indeed, take a look at Spurs (I know it isn’t pretty but bear with me) as they had a first choice X! that played all the time, fantastic results until they all started getting knackered; our players know each other very well due to the ethos we try to keep in place so imo, a rotational system (when they’re fit which with Arsenal means it probably wouldn’t be going for long) would benefit the team better than Song and Arteta carrying the midfields entire defensive burden throughout the season.
Great point DS!
Someone here put up injury figures for last season, and City with their huge squad had less “serious” than anyone by a country mile. Also, look how even Chavs struggled in the League while going the distance in the FAC as well as CL.
@ Micky
Big Daddy can thank his lucky stars then, however he should not be too relaxed just yet. I think LB was just getting settled in his chair when all of a sudden he froze, with an angry look fixed upon his face he shouted out “You’ll pay for this BR, if it’s the last thing i do! You’ll pay for this!”
RA- Tap on the grey line at the top of the screen and it takes you to the top of the page, then refresh. Sadly, nothing which takes you to the bottom of the comments as far as I can tell.
Thanks to GIE I have just bought a second hand iPhone 4. HAve to say, I think it is great.
I am not scared of LB. He is smaller than me (though probably stronger, certainly fitter and younger, and likely to be more aggressive)
Hak Zah. You make a very good point, particularly regarding MU.
What I cannot understand is why when called upon to defend in numbers we seem to freeze. Take the Norwich game – RvP rescues us and we are 3-2 up with 5 mins to go. Can we defend it? Can we hell. Gibbs goes missing, Song makes a poor pass and we are on the back foot. Chesney gets a rush of blood to the head and suddenly we have thrown away 2 valuable points.
IMO the loss of Mertesacker had a huge effect upon the defence as he appears to be the only real Defender.
DickS. You make a persuasive argument. I can only defend by pointing at the Invincibles – 10 players played over 45 games during the season
Song doesnt venture foward as many suggest.If you watch cultured DM’s like Mvilla,Gargano,Van Bommel,Gustavo,Lucas,Mikel and Veloso,they dont do much different to Song,He has been stereotyped because of his assists as an attack minded player but most of his assits come from deep.He had the highest completion of through passes in the league but it was from deep.Its the same with Vermaelen,the other teams dont score when he ventures forward unless it was a counter from a set-piece.We have to admit to ourselves that teams will score against us,just like other teams.But we should be able to analyse goals that were scored through mistakes on our part and goals that we couldnt stop.Like the Spurs goal at WHL by Walker,people blamed Ramsey for not marking Bale but the goal came from the other side of the field after the ball was cleared.I wont say we are not liable for the goals conceded and I wont try to explain to a coach who built a defence of Cole,Toure,Campbell and Lauren what he is doing wrong.As fans we try to find reasons for what is happening and make up reasons when we cant comprehend the situation.I would like to explain why we concede stupid goals,why Vermaelen and Gibbs are sometimes caught out,why every shot taken against us gets deflected over Wojiech,why teams tend to win so many penalties against us,why we get involved in close encounters against team who should not be troubling us,but alas we come up with the easiest and most elementary solutions,’BUY A GK’,’BUY A DM’ and ‘BUY A CB’.come on,how stupid do you think Wenger is?seriously!
Good post Raddy.
I’ll risk the wrath of LB and the other rose-tinted Song watchers.
I agree with whoever said above that Song is great at what he does when he’s switched on. We play a very naive game in that every team knows how we are going to set up and largely how to play against us.
We need a disciplined DM because apart from leaving 2 defenders behind, this team venture forward as a group at every opportunity. It’s exasperating to watch as we get sucker punched again and again. We end up looking like a team of schoolboys.
This can’t all be blamed on Song but if he stayed back and roared at either Sagna or Gibbs that they both don’t need to go forward then we’d have four players taking up defensive positions instead of two.
I want Song to do his defensive job first and then if the chance arises for him to be in the right place to float an exquisite ball to RvP for him to take it but he played most of last season as if that was his job. He needs to play more intelligently and to read the game better. I think his dithering in the first halves of games is because of his lack of direction.
If he wants to be an AM he needs to go somewhere else and if Arsene thinks he should be an AM then he’s wrong.
Update:
With a gale force 9 tail wind, LB is already 27 nautical miles across the North Sea. Given that he will not be allowing his oarsmen a break for their packed lunches, he expects to be within sight of the Danish Coast before tea time.
Last warning Daddy!
Peaches. My point exactly. He is good at many things but not excellent at any.
Thiago. It is not just bad luck which resulted in our conceding the highest number of goals since the 80’s. The problem lies both in the system and the personnel. You make valid points but what is your solution?
Micky. You haven’t met my Viking. She will knock 3 colours of …. out of LB should he even approach Danish waters.
Raddy – I agree with you 🙂 but he could be excellent as a DM. Is he just too inexperienced or have the assists gone to his head?
Those magical assists are wonderful but when we lose possession when he’s part of the attack it all goes horribly wrong.
Fair point, BR, the Invincibles are a good counter to pretty much any argument, how could a team that contained Bergkamp ever be wrong?
What I didn’t say in the post is ….
IF we buy a world class DM he will not be a rotation player. He will be first choice. So who will be dropped?
Assuming JW is fit, he is an automatic choice. Given the huge influence Arteta has on the side, so is he. It is logical (to me) that Song gets dropped and he is too good to sit on the bench. Therefore …….
Well tnx paddy for ur contribution bt if u luk at players especially in md they are inconsistent rather one will be moving forword while find nothing example is player ramsey ,he is nt doing any thing in the pack rather to running up ad down .nw wht l we nd to do is sell all dis fringe player like diaby dt is if we see a buyer ad loan ramsey ad buy quality not quantity ones that will help us challenge for trophy next season to come
Micky,
I am fascinated by your detailed knowledge of LB’s movements! 🙂
Are you a Diary Secretary? If so, I had better give you a schedule of my appointments as this “Siri – I am your personal Assistant” bloke on the iPhone insists on ‘phoning the dentist, when I tell him to just enter an appointment in the diary.
Much confusion and laughter with the receptionist when I blame the ‘phone .. she does not believe me.
You are right, by the way, the Apple-y thing is like an absorbing toy. I get completely into it for ages, especially when I allow myself to play in the ‘apps’ store. 🙂
Big Daddy, I tapped, I pecked and I knocked on the ‘grey’ area with no success at refreshing the AA page.
Any doubts I may have had that I am not a complete idiot have now been shattered!! 🙂
BR,
UPDATE:
With a gale force wind approaching 9 on the Beaufort scale, LB was last seen rowing resolutely half way across Germany, and is expected to dock in Moscow by 2:30 p.m.
RA. Google YouTube iPhone tips – there are thousands of Stephen Hawkings.
Tapping the grey area take you to the top of the page. You have to tap the semi-circular arrow on the right of the address line (arsenalarsenalwordpress) etc) in order to refresh
Projected Forecast: LB sitting in a Danish internet cafe’ wearing his clogs and a bonnet, eating a frikadeller, whilst listening to folk music only to read this post. LB vs Mrs Big Raddy! Who will win this battle of the titans? Entitled: Forsaken in Copenhagen!
RA. He has read the Norse Legends of Mrs Raddy. The wind is just an excuse.
For me.. Song and Arteta is wonderful.. Their teamwork is excellent..
The problem is not with Song.. but with our defenders..
And ofcourse our Attackers..
Lack of creativity on attacking make our MD like Vermaelen and Koscielny go forward.. and leave their feild open..
So We need more creative AM or Winger.. More than an DM..
But if M’Villa is join us.. he can replace Song and Arteta once a while or play for Song position, and Song go further as an AM..
Sell Ramsey and Diaby for better..
Go Gunners.. Go Hollands..
Oz 😀
Right. It is pouring with rain here because I need to go into town.
Back later and looking forward to some football.
Come on you Rip Roaring Poles
Morning, top post Raddy, you have echoed my thoughts in many areas.
Fundamentally I think change is needed in the emphasis of our coaching. The team (not only individual players) is still too inconsistent. Within the space of 1 game we can dominate possession, play beautifull football, score a goal……… but then concede a goal, we can’t hold onto the ball, can’t find a pass, panic at the back etc etc etc…..
We are poor when not in possession of the ball and that is definitely something that could we improved on in training, I hope Steve Bould will have positive input and be able to build a ‘defend as a team’ ethos.
It must be better to know that we can hold onto a 1-0 lead if we have to rather than having to win 3-2 or 4-3.
Although we need our creative players to be more clinical we need to be set up better defensively and that’s something that can be taught and practised.
Rasp 😛
Hi Rasp, 🙂
I totally agree with you. Training, and a lot more of it, is the key.
The players are skillful enough, but sometimes seem indisciplined and more like school kids when attacking.
AW when asked about this sometime ago, denied there was a problem and came out with the usual mantra “we attack as a team, and we defend as a team”.
That is an inarguable truism but also very ingenuous because it did not address the problem, which seemed self evident to many fans, including you, Peaches and myself.
Fingers crossed, as you say, Bouldy may be the answer.
He and Adams have frequently said in the past that they practised and practised their defensive tactics and cohesion, and then went back and practised some more.
RA – we don’t know what goes on at training and as I’ve never been a footballer I wouldn’t want to suppose what’s important but if something is going wrong and you don’t practice trying to put it right then you’ll never know if that was the problem.
I know that sounds a bit airy-fairy but suppose AW only wants to win by playing attacking football, so if we still win by defending poorly then his game-plan has worked 😉
I’m going to step back now because when Rasp reads that he’s going to explode as in reality it makes no sense for a manager not to want to address problems hhhhmmmmmnnnn 😆
I think we need a different approach to our defending:
Great post. I hate to say it but Arsene could go out and buy the best DM in the world but he would still try and change him into a clone of all the other arsenal midfielders. We dont do tactics and thats the problem. Song has been good going forward and is helped with the mature head of Arteta beside him but I cant help feeling sometimes that Arsenes teamtalk lasts about 30 seconds and goes along the lines of “you all know what to do, just go out and try to have fun”. Song could be a great dm given the proper instruction, I think we need older heads who dont need to learn but already know what to do for themselves and Arteta is the proof of this imo.
hi again
i leave the new signing expectaions to when it’s going to happen ,but one thing am exited about is the appointment of Bould,dont know how much authority he will have but i hope he will install that grid of toughness in our squad,let’s face it ,we are not going to win all matches so easily and with good margin of goals,we need to have that steel and mental strength to win narrowly a 0-1 at difficult away match and grind out results as other big teams do,interchanging football is great to watch but it won’t work out constantly,and at times we need to go back to basics.
i don’t mind getting a result away (or even at home) in a dull match rather than playing beautiful football and lose at the end to preventable goals,we have to be realistic ,at the end of the season points count the most ,regardless of how beautiful football is being played all season long.
i think ,approaching home and away games should be different altogether,and it’s vital to keep the opponents guessing ,six months from now if am playing arsenal ,i would know exactly how they are going to shape!!.
we seem we can’t change the game with one sub or with changing tactics mid -way through the match(example Alex-Manc) by dropping one player back or moving other in more forward position depending on how the game is going.
Barumgooner,
You blame Wengers coaching,then say we need older,more experienced heads who know what to do.
Professional footballers,as Arteta truly is,have the discipline and responsibility to do their jobs,not wander continuously out of position as asking is prone to do.
Your post seems to trip over itself,imo.
Lads, ye be all trippin’ (maybe you aren’t but i wanted to start a post like that)
Song is a attacking midfiedler – his stats for last year are off the map. he out fabregased fabregas with thru balls, dribbles, assists, kep passes last seasonetc
He is simply not a dm. his centre of balance is all wrong for a start he is often muscled off the ball by smaller more compact midfielders, his discipline is wrong – a lot of his “hard” challenges are petulant manifestations of frustration, his ethos is wrong – he is looking for runs and not to win ball.
He has a fantastic dynamic with RVP so why play him out of position?
Arteta played as our deepest dm last year and swept along the front of the back four, he did that whole gilberto thing that took me a while to notice and appreciate- we won one league game all season that he wasn’t there to do that.
i am not sure we need a classic makelele type DM, we never had one under arsene.. wenger never buys specialists as they completely assault his total-football philosophy – so if we do end up with M’vila he’ll probably stick him in on the right wing for about six months
I do think Coquelin and Frimpong are fantastic prospects and maybe it is time to unleash the Coq as Arteta’s understoody and Frimpong should he recover adequately is a Song Replica, i.e. he is as hard(er) as song and as two footed and seems to be as attack minded as Song. while he also has an eye for a pass and a dribble
Wenger will probably get a keeper, a versatile defender and another striker (or 2) to replace Chamakh, Park, RVP, walcott or whoever leaves.
What i like is how the centre backs are looking, Kos plays like Keown – he is a rash as a defender and a great anticipatror and interceptor and Vermaelan plays with the passion and strenght that we last saw with Tony Adams, if Per and Johan can just be the Steve Bould and Andy Lineghan of the modern age then we are sucking diesel
Scott, my point is that does Arteta do the job he is asked or the job that he just knows needs doing ?
This is a tough one. We have a midfield of Song, Arteta, Wilshere as first choice I would say. With Rosicky in there as the AM along with Wilshere. Then Ramsey, Diaby (if fit) and Coquelin. Have I forgotten anyone?
Now I see Le Coq as more an Arteta type, than a Song type. Wilshere can play there too but his best position has to be upfield. Frimpong in my opinion is probably not ready.
So we have Song, then Arteta/Coquelin/Wilshere, Wilshere/Rosicky/Ramsey with Diaby as the outlier who we can’t really rely on. For me that leaves us without a like for like replacement for Song. and remember that Song will most likely be going off to the ACN this year (Cameroon didn’t qualify last year) Also, we will probably be without Sagna for some time in the season. Coquelin might occasionally need to fill in at RB. If that sort of situation occured, we’d be without adequate strength and cover in the middle of the park.
Even for the AM slot. I don’t think we can rely on Jack just yet. Or at least strain him too much. Rosicky also cannot play 90 mins every week for too long I should think. That leaves Ramsey, who I like, but he did struggle this year.
If we buy someone like Biglia or M’Vila, we’d have cover/flexibility for our holding mid, and we could also move Arteta up to the Am if we needed to.
This would give us the option of selecting two of Song, Biglia and Arteta as first choice deeper mids, and Wilshere and Rosicky to compete for the AM. Coquelin will compete as backup for the deeper role, while Ramsey will do the same for the AM, Diaby can be our ace in the hole (if he ever manages to get out of there). That to me, looks a more balanced side. Especially considering the ACN and our currently injured players.
Of course, maybe Frimpong is deemed ready, but he’s had some injury problems, and hasn’t completed a season out on loan, unlike Coquelin. I think Frimpong wil go on loan.
So, in a long winded way, what I’m saying is that I think a defensive minded midfielder (who can pass as well-no Parker) is something this Arsenal team can do with.
Raddy – great post, thank you. Sadly, I have no idea as to what’s the answer. I like Song a lot and would be very sorry to see him go, but if he goes it seems like we have more than enough strenght in midfield to flood it with quality.
On reflection I dont actually think dm was the problem last year. (Provided Arteta was in the team). The problem to me was the un-inspiring bench. Our squad last year was poor and the bench full of players who either werent good enough to change a game or AW seemed to have little faith in. Obviously this was largely down to injuries and with Jack, Sagna and the BFG fit and available it looks better. I would be happy this year to keep RVP, offload several of the hangers-on and maybe buy a left-sided pacy winger and a quality reliable left-back.Filling the squad places with some of the younger players.
John Terry couldn’t train yesterday. It was him making the racist noises during Dutch team’s training!
Hi Shard,
That’s another top comment worthy of a headline post ……. need I say anymore? Next time you feel the urge to post a comment why not email it to arsenalnuts@live.co.uk and join our list of authors
Evonne, that’s not true, JT has an alibi provided to him by a Mrs C Rooney.
Nice post Big (&) Randy, a question too complex for my tired mind at the moment.
With some excellent comments like that from Shard it was only a matter of time before you collared him Raspers. 🙂
Chesney
Sagna BFG Verm (baines)
jack Song Arteta
Theo RVP (?)
with Koz, Gibbs, Ramsey, Miquel, Jenks, Pod, TR, Ox, Ryo, Afobe, Lansbury, LeCoq, and a keeper ?
I personally think thats a squad capable of winning the title.
Really interesting post Raddy. I often wonder how everyone can get playing time if we sign a dm and theyre all fit. But, im worried that song hasnt signed an extension yet, and i also think coquelin is good, but not ready if we plan to challenge this coming season, and most important, i just think back to so many horrible messes at the back goals we conceded. I can still picture so many, the fault of the back four mostly, but i wonder if a fantastic, dedicated dm might have made a difference. I am thinking lately that arteta can start further forward for us also. ——–
——– ps + i agree strongly with peaches comments
We definately need a DM to play behind Song, and then a fit Wilshire to play in front of him. Both Song and Arteta are perfect for that middle midfield role, we just need to sort out the DM and AM positions IMO.
Slim.In your team we will have 12 players. A fine proposal but not generally accepted by the FA.
Desi Gunner recently posted an analysis of Arsenal’s defending:
The article makes many interesting points. It provides evidence that Arsenal as a team demonstrate good defensive skills. It suggests rather that “these [defending] problems are largely systemic in nature and arise from the tactical approach of the manager which manifests itself in the form of decision making and execution by the players on the pitch”.
The above summary does not do justice to the article, which makes many astute observations and offers suggestions toward a fix. I recommend it.
p. s. I believe it is not against the rule to refer to other blogs. If it is, I apologize.
Great comments by shard and double 98. I just want to add to my comments about arteta. I think he did what the team needed last year, less glamorous and hard work,totally unselfish. But he has great awareness and a nice shot on him when playing forward. I always thought he was good at everton, on a weak attacking, uncreative team. I think he could be excellent as an am for a team like ours. At least sharing some time there. Im still curious about who would be coming in this summer, am, dm? There could be alot of mf’s. I wonder if song is staying. Mainly, my view is : dont just bring in another equal talent in am or dm. If we are going to add, make it a great player. Top quality talent. And also,for those mentioning frimpong alot. He looks like a great young talent physically, l love that hes a proud, fiery gunner at heart, BUT, he ia years away. A very raw talent. he needs more than a full seaon, maybe two, on loan ,playing regularly, and showing that he can stay fit. But a great potential for future.
I woke up feeling optimistic. So, I’ll state it here: 3 years hence, we will have the England midfield starting for us: Frimps, Whilshire, the Ox… stop panicking people. Or perhaps that will be 2 years.
Evening all, RA I’m still on holiday but I have run in from the gales to post a response to your iPhone issue. As Raddy said tapping the grey menu bar takes to the top of the page, and clicking the refresh button refreshes the page.
I’m not sure what version of the site you are using but if per chance you are on the mobile version of AA I suggest scrolling to the very bottomof the page, past blog rolls etc until you see an option to “view full site” or “view desktop version”. I find when I refresh this it takes me to where I last was more often than not.
Rasp!! We are rocking 🙂 🙂
Hi all
We don’t have a post for tomorrow but if any of our Polish, Greek, Russian or Czech bloggers want to write about tonight’s football letv me know ………
Well done evonne, as I write this Poland are 1 up but I’ve got it paused 🙂
Thanx GIE,
I will give that a try! 🙂
Poland worth the lead and they do not need a very suspect ref to help them win
Raddy – exactly. I’d rather we won fair and square
Haha
UEFA are obviously desperate to make sure one of the host nations goes through. That ref has definitely had his instructions.
Not that Poland need his help – they would beat Greece anyway.
BR
Excellent Post.
I will be happy if our first choice MF next year is Arteta, Song and Wilshere, so I don’t think we need a DM. End of.
Oh Wojciech!
The ref’s going to have to send off a couple more Greeks now. I bet Poland get a penalty.
Hi Raddy, many thanks for a fantastic post. 🙂
My answer is we probably do not need another DM. If Song is asked to be our classic DM, he will do it, and do it really well. Coquelin and Frimmpong can be moulded into proper back up.
But, I don’t think Arsene wants a classic DM in a two DMs 4-2-1-3 system. He wants multi-functional midfielders who sort out roles between them during the game. The way Arteta and Song build an understanding between each other last season was very, very special.
I cannot wait to see the SAW in midfield next season: Song, Arteta and Wilshere, with the latter in the most advanced midfield position. With back up of Ramsey, le Coq, Frim, Rosicky and Diaby, we will be cooking with serious gas. Song will be pivotal again for us next season.
Would I say: merde, merde, shiet, shiet though, if Arsene were to buy another midfielder? Certainly not, but I cannot see it happening, unless Song decides to leave – which I doubt.
Rocky, snap!
build = built
Hello TA 🙂
Watching the game?
Hi Rocky, I am recording it and will watch a bit later (my mum is visiting from Holland). I saw that Toronto have sacked Aaron Winter after losing 8 or 9 games in a row…. Not a record he will put on his CV! 😛
I am not going to say anything about Chesny so and so, or I will find myself being quoted by GiE alongside other boo boys
And now he got a RED!!!! Fucking twat
Oh oh oh Wojciech… 😦
TA
I was at the Toronto game (vs Washington) where they set a new MLS record for the worst start to a season…
Szczesny has had a dreadfull game. At fault for the first and gavevthe ref no choice but to show him a red.
Where’s Fabianski?
Tyton for Arsenal!!!
Chas – injured
Fab is injured and Tyton was the GK for Roda JC (my local team before I moved to England) till last season – he is very good.
You will be fine Evonne, keep the faith!
Why did the ref disallow that Greek goal? I am watching with tysk commentary
Raddy – the ref knows Greeks have no money and polish are loaded
BR
See my comment at 6.05 🙂
I think we have got the wrong Polish goalkeeper…..some one tell Wenger!
The boy Szczesny is thinking of us. He didn’t want to get injured so has handily removed himself from the frame….top keeping.
Rasp you’re right it’s all about the spin 🙂
BR,
The winger was 6 inches offside
Interesting post, Big Randy.
I still think we need a DM, simply because we suffered so much when Arteta was missing last season. None of the replacement midfields contained a player that took up the same responsibllity Arteta does.
Greece should have won an entertaining game. Our boy was rubbish though IF he brought down the attacker in order to stop a certain goal then he is both selfless and very cool under pressure
Chas, that is factually incorrect. It should be 147mm offside.
Hi all,
What a load of rubbish Mark Bright speaks…. he really does not understand football…. he says something with absolute positivity then slowly adapts his summarys as he see’s replays…. what a douche….. bring on Crooksie 😉
Ps.
In response to the post Song cannot play as a defensive or holding midfielder. Like the the nursery rhyme when hes is good hes very very very good but when he is bad HES bad.
Interesting post, at the end Raddy you have no idea, same as me , so I guess we can leave it upto a man who probably has a good idea, Le Prof`. 🙂
Chas
I would use Le Coq as cover when/if Arteta is out.
My old team Senrab has produced a few England Internationals ( not me alas, I`m just an International Playboy ). That laundrette owner on East Enders, Mr Papadopoulos, he`s done quite well for the Greek team !.
glic. Wise words
Poland transformed themselves to rubbish in second half; looked like they borrowed the Wenger handbrake.
Rooting for Arshavin to have a blinder in this tournament, so he can bring in a heftier transfer fee.
I`ve just noticed Raddy, in your last paragraph we have a team ( 11 ) of midfielders and we all know Lansbury is a decent `keeper !.
Back to the post briefly I want to explore the “Song cant be disciplined” criticism that is oft made (I’m as guilty as anyone).
As I was writing my early comment I realised that actually it is whoever is paired with Song when it’s not Arteta that may not be disciplined. We expect Song to take responsibility and sit for 90, but Arteta doesn’t sit for 90, as shown by some of his goals. But he reacts when Song goes forward and vice versa. What has tended to happen when Song has played without Arteta is that his partner has not reacted to Song going forward, it is rarely when someone else gives the ball away that we are subject to the counter but when Song has forayed forward we are.
micky – sign up that Arshavin, wonderful little player 🙂
Peaches,
Agree with you, Arshavin player transformed. He looks like the player he can be.
Not only that little mozart looks good as well.
We do have great players when they play at their best… Arshavin and Rosicky are players I do not believe should be let go.
Anyone who knows about football knows Arshavin is world class. He just needs to be played with the right players around him eg. never expect him to do spade work .
Cheers
goonerjake
If the Russians had RvP they would be awesome
Glic 7:46. My Son used to play against Senrab every season at Forest Gate. Always a good side.
Wow its nice to get in and watch football.
Super game of open football. If only the PL was like this .
Only seen the second half BR, but agree with you.
Can’t believe I am writing this but Howard Webb has been faultless.
Ah, but he didn’t have to “see anyone right”!
Nite all.
Agree with BR Webb has been faultless. (Probably because he has not had a chance to show man utd bias scince no man utd players were playing… however i have heard that he has renewed his contract with man utd for the next few years …. so i guess i can go back to hating him 😉
TA, I still think we have room for one more mf, even if song stays. Arteta getting on in age with a little injury history. Frimpong i love but needs alot more seasoning. Coquelin, i like, but should not be forced to be relied on for 30 matches or more, whether he wants to or not. If we are serious about contending for a title, rvp stays, pod plays. We need to go for it, one injury to song or arteta has us relying on kids too much. Also, i have said id like to see rambo as dm because hes not good enough at am. But im not sure after how he looked towards the end of the season( hopefully he was just a lil tired) but diaby is a wild card. How cool would it be if he was healthy and repaid arsenes faith. Almost would be a dream 🙂
Well that took bloody ages, I have finally arrived in Copenhagen and I am on my way to see a certain BR.
And the reason for coming all this way of course is to say what a good post.
Although, it is a shame you miss so many key points of last season.
You sing the praises of Arteta but fail to acknowledge Song’s role in aiding him. Arteta never played the role he does for Arsenal at Everton, it is Song that has enabaled him to change roles to accomodate the Basque’s slowing pace.
You fail to mention the poor performances of our attacking midfield which more often than not forced Song further up the pitch to try and get an equaliser or a winner and on many a match he was our Johnny on the spot, it was his skilful pass that set Van Persie up to score yet another goal.
This is not indiscipline Peaches this is a footballer trying to help bail others out who have failed to do their job properly.
You fail to acknowledge that the injuries to Diaby (who does have defensive qualities and Wilshere) both of which forced Song to play in more unfamiliar positions.
Do not expect this to change because Wilshere is too small to play DM alone; he has to have Song next to him and most should realise that that forces them to alternate in their attacking play. That’s to say that due to Wilshere’s physical shortcomings Song has to augment the attacking midfield and that means playing further up the pitch. Exactly the same happened when Arteta was fit and playing.
Song is far from perfect but he is not undisciplined, he has just been forced to play in different positions to help Wenger out in the more than expected injury ravaged midfield that we suffered last season.
For all those who question Song you really should get used to him because he is not going anywhere and no one is going to be brought to replace him.
I was at Craven Cottage when at the age of 17 he was booed by large numbers Arsenal fans every time he got the ball (May they hang their heads in shame). I have seen him develop from a CB into a DM who just sat in front of the back four to someone capable of playing to most sublime pass to van Persie to score.
I have said this for many years now and I still believe it, when Song is 26 he will be the best DM in the world and what will make him that?
It’s the fact that he is capable of offering so much more than the likes of a Scotty Parker for example that makes him such a superior DM.
Song is a great asset to the club we are lucky to have him.
(Scotty……..what kind of name is that)
LB – you make a very strong case, as I knew you would 😉
LB
Spot on.
Hi JNYC 🙂
You just made some very good points. I strongly believe both Ramsey and Coquelin will make significant progress next season (and the former is ahead of the latter).
In my ideal world, Arsenal would play 4-1-2-3 next season. Song would be our classic DM, and then the likes of Diaby, Jack, Rambo, Rosicky, Arteta, Arshavin etc could play in the ‘2’: they are all very suitable midfielders for those roles. Coquelin and Frimpong could be moulded to replace Song when necessary.
Arsene could even go for a new DM and allow Song to join the competition for the ‘2’.
But we are more likely to play 4-2-1-3 again next season, and I still think that between Arteta, Song, Ramsey and Le Coq the ‘2’ will be sorted out over this summer. Jack, Rosicky, Diaby, and possible RvP can take up the attacking midfielder role (in case of RvP, with either Podolski or Theo upfront).
However, I would not mind a very experienced midfielder (CL and title winner) to come and join us for a season, or two, to help the young guns to reach their full potential, whilst playing between 20-30 games himself. Last season, I was desperate for Van Bommel to join us to take on the mentor/player role, but he went to Milan instead. This year, Clarence Seedorf could play that role, but I am sure there are better examples…
well said LB, couldn’t agree more. I did want more biffo/outrage though
If only Song were as good as LB says – every big club in the world would be vying to buy him – but they’re not ….. so either LB knows more than the world’s top managers or he’s wrong.
Song is a very good player. He is certainly worthy of his place in the current team (of available players) If Jack were fit, I’d play Arteta before Song every time.
Wow Rasp that’s a big statement. I’m as you know one of Artetas biggest fans and one of Songs harshest critics, but I think I need to go back and watch some full 90 minutes of them both playing and full 90’s of just one playing to see whether it’s Arteta’s replacement that led to poor midfield defending or Song’s apparent lack of desire to defend. I’m beginning g to think I may have it wrong and am looking to Song to provide the impossible given who he is partnered with.
Who is to say they are not Rasp? Just because he isn’t constantly in the media being linked with others doesn’t mean other teams do not want him (they’d be stupid not too)
Song is still developing as a player, and I’m sure finding more about his game as the days pass. Arsene has helped him develop this far, whose to say his development won’t continue?! I agree with LB, Song will flourish and I want it to happen at Arsenal!
I’m also beginning to think we need to revise the 4-3-3 formation whether it be 2-1 or 1-2 in the midfield I don’t think it works, there is an over reliance on the full backs to provide width and the attacking wide players are forced into positions where they are not creating much, whether by the formation or through their lack of intelligence to find the crucial yard of space to operate in.
I’m thinking a 4-4-2 will work better, two players up top to occupy two centre backs will prevent the opposition defending as they do at the moment.
So here goes (given current players)
……………Szczesny…………………
Sagna….Kos……BFG………….TV
Arteta…..Song…Wilshere….Gerv
…………..RvP…..Theo……………..
Right back on holiday 🙂
GiE, Song doesn’t take responsibility. He never runs the midfield like Arteta dose. He doesn’t orchestrate games. When he is at his best he is brilliant but he has too many lapses of concentration. He is 24, he’s been with us since 2006, he should be running our midfield
Hi Rasp, has anybody been knocking on the door for Arteta lately? No, yet you believe he is the absolute bees knees – which he is! 😉
Lots of clubs showed interest in Fat benchwarmer…
We are a top club and do not need to measure the quality of our up and coming, or established players by the interest shown by other clubs.
I used to have a friend who would dump his girlfriend as soon as somebody would point out an imperfection, however spurious it often was. He went through a lot of girlfriends…. 😀
Arteta made the most passes and the highest percentage of successful passes. I can’t remember any time when he gave away the ball when not under any pressure, Song has lapses of concentration when he gives the ball away quite inexplicably and unfortunately it ihas cost us goals
In all fairness rasp how many of those seasons has he been employed in the midfield? 3?
Do we know if its his responsibility to sit back and defend? Perhaps Arsene gave him a new role with Jack and Diaby out.
He still hasn’t hit his peak yet and that comes with more experience. If we spoke of consistency half our team would be out the door, especially theo. Once his role in the team becomes more defined I have no doubt he will step up to it.
This comment from LB:
“For all those who question Song you really should get used to him because he is not going anywhere”
Sound familiar?
I say to Songsters, be afraid!
The world feels a very different place today with a litle footie behind me, and a very pleasantly spread two games a day ahead. Ahhhh, sigh 🙂
Morning Micky – you’re absolutely right about the world feeling like a different place with some footie about. RvP and Nikki B today 🙂
The Russia v Czech game was really good to watch. It did make me laugh seeing Roy Keane and Patrick Vieira sitting together in the ITV studio though 😉
What a shame AA didn’t like it here in London and at Arsenal. He still did a fair amount of ‘I’m not bothering to be part of that attack’ once he’d released a through ball but was involved in their goals.
Hi Peaches,
I only saw second half, but it was a typical AA performance, albeit a slim and fit one. He will certainly look back on his career with regret and a massively missed opportunity. Oh well.
“I would play Arteta before Song everytime”
Who wouldn’t? But you can’t just have creative players in a team or eleven Lionel Messi’s would win everything.
Or would it? Some people know enough about football understand the need for a combination of defensive as well as attack minded players.
It worries me that I have to explain this, it makes me wonder if the person it is aimed at really undertands football at all.
LB,
I think you make a very good point about Song making up for our creative defficiencies. On that note, who (all being fit!) would you choose as a starting midfield three from what we have now?
https://twitter.com/7amkickoff/status/211231488270807041
https://twitter.com/7amkickoff/status/211231715627245568
morning all
Easy question Micky. I’d choose Arteta, wilshere, song, rosicky, coquelin, ox, ramsey and a fit diaby. Oh wait you said 3 didn’t you? I quit!
First choice: Song, Wilshere, Arteta
Second Choice: Coquelin, Ramsey, Ox/Rosicky
Oz,
I agree with your defensive two, and from what we have, your choice of AM, but I can’t help thinking we may have missed a trick with Kagawa. 23, and 14 goals last season.
Don’t worry about ‘explaining ‘ things LB, it is only your opinion, not fact, it worries me I have to explain this.
I absolutely understand that the team needs balance and that means players who do ‘a job’ so that the flair flayers can be creative. Its something I’ve been saying for years. That is why I appreciate the Arsenal version of Arteta (not the Everton one) as he keeps it simple.
I have said repeatedly this season that our midfield hasn’t functioned because either players don’t understand their role or are failing to fulfill the role expected of them.
Cesc said that it was good to clearly understand his role at Barca, which implied that at Arsenal, it was less defined.
One of any combo of three has to be able to ball players out for galloping forward and leaving the back door WIDE open …….. we must learn to control the mid-field enough to not be conceding ridiculous goals and that means that someone has to be responsible. Is Song not that man????????????????
Morning Rasp 🙂
LB. Lovely to have you here in a very wet Copenhagen. I will meet you in Tivoli and explain why Song is not the man Arsenal need to run our midfield.
That Song has the attributes you mention is without doubt – he is a fine player but as I have said he is a jack of all trades and a master on none.
Your 7.35. . I don’t know who you were aiming your final sentence at but it is a cheap shot and unlike you.
I cannot formulate a meaningful transfer strategy as I’ve no idea what plans AW has for the Ox. He’s the only player whose development I would not hinder by buying in whatever position he will end up.
If AW reckons AM, then I’m all for muddling through with Diaby and Rosicky. If its wide, then I’d flog Theo and rotate Ox with Pod and Gerv and use the cash to buy an AM.
Tricky, but fun, stuff this speculation.
Rasp
“It worries me” 🙂
The wishy washy way we set up was great when we hit teams on the break, they were scared of us but our patient build-up play requires players to be more in control of the game.
‘wishy washy’ = ‘go and play your game’
Peaches etc. That is the point of the post and a debate that will run through summer. Why do we concede so many goals despite having such good players?
I think GIE’s very good point (12.24) about our FB’s and wingers has been overlooked.
Little has been made of Mr Wenger’s input into our defensive problems. If the personnel are good enough then it must be the system and the way the players are coached.
BR,
I don’t think some are good enough for specialist roles. This Total Fluid thing is rubbish. Barca for example. They all play very specific roles. Sure they know how to cover for each other, but that’s different.
Its been a while, but I used to say rather a lot how players like Song and Ramsey are 4-4-2 players.
Morning all 😛
Raddy – I’m too polite and bored of blaming AW for our defensive problems …….maybe Steve Bould will be our defensive saviour.
Rasp you misunderstood Cesc, when he referred to the role, he was referring to being the tea boy and understanding that it didn’t all rest on his shoulders anymore.
Wengers old adage was signing “intelligent players” and encouraging them to “play without fear”. The likes of DB10, Henry, Pires, Ljungberg and even the old stalwart back 5 flourished under that philosophy.
It means other teams shouldn’t be able to make a game plan. When we shifted away to the new squad I think we lost some of that intelligence. But you only have to look at Arteta at Everyon and Arteta for us and see that actually players can still flourish under that approach. Ox will too as has Jack already.
Morning Rasp.
Super show from the Russians last night. How good would they be with a decent striker?
GiE – what’s the answer then?
Morning Raddy, yes and how nice to see Arsh playing with the freedom GiE mentions 😛
GiE, I’m sorry to have to say this, but we just don’t have so many players of that special quality any more so we have to function better as a team.
I don’t have to remnd you of those who have left and those who have joined to illustrate my point I’m sure. Yes we have fantastic potential,but we are not a team full of superstars who have the ‘intelligence’ to work it out for themselves.
GiE, sorry, I’ve just re-read your comment and see I have repeated some of what you said – we may in broad agreement here 😆
It only takes one player in the midfield to fail to perform (in relation to those around him) for the whole system to fail. I think Ramsey needed to have specific guidance as to his positioning and role, and if he didn’t it was very unfair on a player of his age.
I know many have said it was a cunning tactical ploy, but to see Ramsey literally take the ball off Arteta’s toes instead if moving into space (forwards?) and making himself available for the pass was just ludicrous.
Just catching up.
Song allows Arteta to play a different position….you’re kidding!!
Arteta had to play a different position,because Song drifts off into the distance!!
Scott 🙂
Rasp – can you have a look in drafts please and turn your phone on 😉
New Post ……………………
Depressing. A little too much Adrian durham