Written by Double 98
Sir Alex Ferguson choked back the tears when the Manchester United people unveiled a stand in his name. It was a fitting tribute to a legend of the game and so much more pertinent to honour the man while he is still alive and running the club. Club allegiance aside, hats off to the man – 25 years at the helm of the biggest club in world football and enjoying unparalleled success in trophies and medals deserves mention and accolade.
Down the road in North London, Arsenal were beating a team that they should beat easily enough by 3 goals. That Arsenal beat West Brom 3-0, is not remarkable in a normal context but in November 2011 it is monumental. 12 – 18 weeks before in the close season, Arsène Wenger was confronted with a crisis in his club – in his own words half the dressing room wanted to leave. He moved quickly to clear some of the deader wood and tried desperately to get his world class players to stay.
To no avail, In Fabregas he lost a player that his third great team was entirely build around – an attacking quarterback with unbelievable passing ability, incredible panoramic vision and a ludicrously fast footballing brain. In Nasri he lost plan B, Nasri was spiky and mercurial, while not an exact match for Fabregas, he was a player that Arsene Wenger could have built a team around quite quickly. Over the summer along with the heart being ripped out of the club, and the replacement heart looted by the Dubai heart collectors we also had the periphery annihilated – among them Clichy – our one time class act at left back and Bendtner, precocious and arrogant, he always seem destined to be (in eddie vedder’s words) a “sun in somebody else’s sky..”.
So Wenger stood 2 days before the transfer deadline, with a half a team, 1 point from 3 games and having just taken a hiding from Manchester United the likes of which no Arsenal Manager has ever taken from anyone. The crowd had turned, the mumbling voice of the disaffected had grown to a howling, crescendo of hate and rejection. It would have been easy to do two things – leave or abandon his self sustainability model and buy some over priced class.
He did neither, he looked around the club and noticed the last diamond at his disposal – a diamond so fragile and unreliable that even in the form of his life had not attracted any serious interest from those that have plagued our club for the last 10 years – he ran a cloth over Robin van Persie and saw a resolve where others saw a fracture and thought – I can rebuild an empire around this fellow. From what I can tell he sent his team of negotiators out each with a players name, a bottomline value and a maximum weekly wage. Most of the people his team negotiated with laughed at the offers, or the agents laughed at the wages but the bottomline was hard.
At the close of the deadline, the news was confirmed that we had signed Arteta, Santos, Park, the BFG and on loan Yossi Benayoun to go with the earlier captures of Gervinho and Jenkinson. Each of them had a point to prove, and a hunger to fill – each of them could have earned more money elsewhere or at their old club. Wenger looked at his gem cabinet and found Walcott, Koscielny and especially Rosicky, looking under used and brimming with unfulfilled potential. He shined them up and went to work binding them together into a cohesive unit. It wasn’t easy – he was two months behind in preparation and already 8 points off the lead.
Since deadline day (and the Old Trafford humiliation) Arsenal’s premier league results are W 6 D 0 L 2 while in all competitions it reads W 10 D 2 L 2. In amongst that statistic was the away wins in Marseille and a thumping of bogey team Chelsea. Whatever way you look at this form it is, if not title winning then title contending form. Have some of the wins been fortunate – yes, has some of the defending been shocking of course but you know what? It has been exponentially better week on week even the boo’s have stopped and it appears that the crisis is averted.
The media have stopped their feeding frenzy – even to the point where MOTD gave no analysis of our game against WBA. As little as a month before they had analysed every defensive mistake, gesture and position as forensically as a crime scene in an attempt to convince us all that Arsène Wenger had lost the plot, the crowd and his dressing room.
So where does this all bring us? Well as the accolades quite rightly come in for Sir Alex, all his achievement is, for me, second to the real world achievement of Arsène Wenger – in 12 weeks he has had his heart ripped from his chest, he has been humiliated and beaten to within a inch of his life by his biggest foe, he has had to sit and endure the cacophony of boos and jeers from his own supporters, he has had to endure former Arsenal players telling him on tv that his time is up, he has had to stay quiet while players that never had the talent to play for him (Savage) tell the world that he hasn’t a clue, former managers telling us that he needs a defensive coach, he has had to look Robin van Persie in the eye every day and tell him not to waver in his faith, he has had to take old dogs like Arteta and teach them new tricks (well in Arteta he just converted him back to the Pepe Guardiola defensive fulcrum type player that he started out as).
He has not veered from his philosophy and now in our traditional black month of November – we the supporters of the greatest and most rewarding club, while maybe not seeing the promised land, no longer see the threatened land and I for one can’t wait til Manchester United come to town in late January. We might not win by 6 but we will demonstrate that the circle is turned and I expect to win.
Ferguson has never, ever had to endure even half of what Wenger has this season. Sir Alex may be the Knight of Manchester but Arsene is the King of Arsenal – Long live the King – We should buy our way out of the naming rights and call the Grove the Arsène Wenger Stadium and ensure that his legacy is indelible with the future of the club.
Arsenal News 24/7
arsenalarsenal.net 
chas’ quiz for the day, copied across from yesterday’s post….
Footballers when they were young
http://twitpic.com/4l45rw/full
WOOOOOOOOOOW Double98!!!!!! That is a super Post. Sorry Rasp, but this is now my favourite ever Interlull post, and up there in the top-3 of all AA-post I read. 🙂
D98, you write from the heart and from the brain and combine these sources to perfection, with great writing ability. I love the crescendo of the last three paragraphs, so full of passion and conviction in Arsene, it made me choke. TOP stuff.
Quick quick..google Eddie Vedder…
Right okay, plays for Pearl Jam…
Quick quick..google Pearl Jam..
Crikey, that’s disgusting!
Seriously D98,
That is a very well written post. Thanks very much.
D98, 🙂
I really am taken, both with the content and your coherent writing style. It had me gripped from the start! 🙂
As an observant and analytical summary of recent events, that is spot on and cannot be faulted, but, and I know I have a big but, I think part of the Ferguson success story has been quietly forgotten, by others, and is something we sneer at with the Chavs and Shitty ….. MONEY!
Every year since Ferguson arrived a Manyoo, even though he inherited Beckham, Scholes, Giggs etc, he has gone out and spent huge money on one or two top quality players.
I cannot be bothered to research them, but picking out a couple of £30 million names, Ferdinand and Rooney typify my point.
Now that money is something we could not or would not spend now at today’s prices, but then – especially for Ferdinand – it was huge. Many others were bought, such as Ronaldo, for smaller sums than that which simply blew us out of the water, when he was almost our player.
Ferguson has carried on doing that with Jones and Smalling for instance, both heavily linked with Arsenal.
Somehow with the emergence of the Chavs and Citeh, this huge and continuing Manyoo spending has been quietly forgotten, and Ferguson has been lauded and wrongly compared with Arsene and his track record.
Sorry, this does not detract from your Post, in any way, it’s just that I have a bee in my bonnet about the short-term memory of fans and journalists alike.
And I admit it, I cannot stand Ferguson or Manyoo!
D98. Top top stuff.
The standard of writing on this site is second to none as this week has witnessed.
Superb post D98.
This is a time when values count, I have expressed my feelings about FIFA in a revised banner to see us through the weekend
Storming stuff, D98.
Dubai heart collectors. 🙂
D98 – excellent post. Really good to hear praise for SAF. It’s a fine example of the mature and informed mind set of posters on this site. Let’s just hope ‘Arry the Wide Boy doesn’t have the same success at Spuds because I will have to press ‘Control, Alt, Delete’ and throw my PC in the recycling bin.
Arsene is a legend. I’ve had a few snipes about the club this year but generally accepted we won’t get better than Arsene. A bad workman shouldn’t blame his tools and we’ve had a few too many tools wearing the red and white over the last couple of seasons and why we’re having to make do with handcrafted wooden tools Man City have gone for POWER tools! Let’s just hope they have a massive power cut at some stage and we chisel our way to the top!
D98,
One point. You mention the “howling, crescendo of hate” and I know what you are saying, but we have all noticed the empty seats and with the vanishing acts of these season ticket holders has gone most of the boo boys. Round up those seats and allocate them as free to all away fans in an area behind the goal. We are so much better off without them.
Rasp – I’m loving the new banner. Quality.
Illy 🙂
Chas. I think the first is
Maradona
Amongst the others (short of time) are Andy Gray, Ronaldo (RM), Beckham, Robbie Keane, Torres, Alan Hansen, Gazza
Is it our very own Red Arse in the military outfit?
Hi RA, fully agreed on your sentiments re AF and putting his achievements in financial perspective.
But what I believe is very clever of D98’s approach is that he respectfully uses AF as a marker against which he offsets Arsene heroic achievement in the last 4 months or so. Really smart 🙂
Illy,
Great last line.
HOME and END. HOME and END. I am so excited by my new weapons.
Micky – if you press Caps Lock all your typing comes out in CAPITALS. Frigging amazing, technology eh? What will they think of next?
And last but not least Ian WRIGHT !!WRIGHT!!WRIGHT!! has been quiet of late. That goes to show his humble pie must be tasting really gross. Keep it up gooners.
Illy,
Now you’re taking the piss 🙂
Micky – ok, ok, lesson 1 has been covered elswhere (check), lesson 2 yesterday (check), lesson 3 today…the F buttons?
long live wenger.
Illy,
Me and the F buttons fell out big style yesterday. Incidently, does a PC Guru wear hemp underwear and free range sandles?
hemp sandles and free range Jimmy Durrants
Here is a brief rundown of the function key and what they can do for you.
F1
As a throwback to DOS days, you will find that the F1 key will often bring up a help menu. If you press F1 while working in a program, help for that program will usually appear. If you press F1 while at the Windows desktop or when the Windows Explorer is open, a Windows help screen will pop up. If you happen to be working in a program and would like to see the Windows help screen, simply press the Windows key (the key with the Windows logo on the bottom row of keys) on your keyboard and press F1 at the same time.
F2
You can use the F2 key to rename an item when working in Windows. Highlight any folder or file, and press F2. You will then be able to type a new name for the object. After you type the new name, just click outside the name box or press the enter key to make the name change. This works just like right-clicking a file or folder and selecting Rename.
F3
When you are working in Windows, the F3 key will open the Find Files window.
F4
The F4 key has some very useful functionality. You can press F4 to open the Address bar when working in Internet Explorer. This will allow you to type the address of a Web page for quick access.
You can also press the Alt key and the F4 key at the same time to close the open Window that you are currently working on.
F5
The F5 key is the refresh key. You can press F5 when viewing a Web page to make sure that you have the most current version of that Web page. You can also use F5 when in Windows to refresh the screen. This can be a handy shortcut. If perhaps you are viewing the contents of a CD and you remove that CD and insert another CD, your screen will still show the contents of the CD. Just press F5 to refresh the screen and see the contents of the CDyou just inserted.
F6
This key is often used to move the cursor around the structure of the program. Pressing it will often cycle you from window to window. In Internet Explorer and Firefox, pressing F6 moves the cursor to the address bar.
F7
The F7 key does not have any functionality in Windows. It may, however be used in some individual programs. To find out if it is available in the program you are using, bring up the program’s help screen and type in the words function key.
F8
The F8 key can be used to access Safe Mode if pressed during the computer’s boot up process. This is a trouble-shooting mode which will start the computer with minimal drivers.
F9
The F9 key does not have any functionality in Windows. It may, however be used in some individual programs. To find out if it is available in the program you are using, bring up the program’s help screen and type in the words function key.
F10
F10 is the key that is used to activate the menu bar in many programs. You can use F10 to highlight the first menu choice, and then use the arrow keys to move around the menus. Pressing the Shift key while pressing F10 will bring up the shortcut menu. This is similar to right-clicking on an object.
F11
Press F11 when you are working in Internet Explorer and many other programs, and the window will open to full screen mode. This will make all the toolbars disappear and can be useful to see more information on the screen. Press F11 when you are in full screen mode will toggle you back to your normal view.
F12
The F12 key does not have any functionality in Windows. It may, however be used in some individual programs. To find out if it is available in the program you are using, bring up the program’s help screen and type in the words function key
…anything else is chargeable at £3 an hour.
Oh here we go again.
Google Jimmy Durrant.
OK, so he was a WWII pilot, a Saxophonist or a Footballer. My hunch is you’re talking some nasty rhyming lingo.
he is the BEST, I BELIEVE IN HIM, prof u r
Arshavin getting ready to leave,maybe……
http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2896/premier-league/2011/11/09/2749151/andrey-arshavin-warns-arsenal-he-could-leave-should-he
Right. Head down for some work. Later.
Micky – Cockney Rhyming Slang is not “some nasty rhyming lingo”. I’m sat ‘ere in me Jimmys trying to help you press all the right buttons and you slaaaaaaaag ‘orf me native tongue. Ravi Shankah.Makes me wanna choke on me pie ‘n’ mash.
Double 98 that was the piece I would have liked to write, but am not good enough, well done and thank you.
Mickey 89 My PC Guru will be here in a few minutes so I will ask him, before we go off to Wisbech for those wonderful FISH AND CHIPPYS YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
Great read – Arsene definitely has gone through a very testing time as has players such as RVP but they have come through the other side much stronger as one would harden steel. D98 wrote of being able to beat Man U when they turn up here – cant remember when Man City come but I even think we can beat them based on seeing the QPR game. By the time we play Man U in Jan we could and should be up amongst the magical 4th spot and hopefully ready to push on. (Lil’ Jack will be on his way back and Sagna will also be returning)
Great stuff D98, i concur with everything you say. Arsene Wenger is truly a great manager for our club. It amazes me that some people dont like Arsene but when i think of all the managers he has had spats with he has always been in the right.
Sir Alex: Just cos Arsene dosn’t lick his behind
Jose mourinio: Jealous of the respect that Arsene commands
Tango Brown: who would want to shake hands with that oiley snake
Fat Sam:Cos Arsene points out that his teams play hoofball
Martin Oneil: Hes crazier than me
Martin Jol: Hair envy
Clive Allen: Inferirority complex, and hes a fat pudding.
Tony Pullis: Arsene wont share a shower with him
D98 that is a quality homage to our superb Manager. I often feared that we would not realise how much we would miss him if the doubters had their way. Now I honestly think we can see it. All I would ask anyone who thought his time was up to do is look at how long it takes a new manager to turn round a clubs situation if at all. Wenger knew his squad he didn’t have to assess them all he needed was the correct balance for the replacements to push this squad forward.
For me he found it he has also managed to train that squad into a Wengerball team within weeks. As he did with his first Arsenal squads. And still the best is yet to come.
To put his achievements into perspective our Invincibles starting XI was acquired for £47m, about the same cost as Milner and Silva, or Torres. Ok add inflation in transfers and that £47m is more like £100m, which is equivalent to Carroll, Henderson, Downing and Adam.
Wenger is a genius, not because he spends so little money but because he has maximised the money he has been allowed to spend without us having to sell our club to the devil.
Wenger is the coach of all coaches and we should name the stadium after him
Chas – Wayne is left most, second from the bottom
Ryan Giggs second picture
Ronaldo and Ronaldinho together, second line
Double – magnifico, thank you for this masterpiece.
Torres – what a waste of 50 million – a shadow of the player he once was
Excellent post. Maybe you can create a banner on your blog for the movement to rename the Emirates to Arsene Wenger Stadium in the future?
TerryM,
Your 10:59, 🙂
A little to early to be crowing that Wenger has been vindicated. The mess that Arsenal were in at the start of the season was only one mans fault….the Chealsea result was great and the team have put a good run together but we still have a long way to go and dont forget in recent years it is the early season points that has got us the top 4 finish. Any reoccurrence of the end of season slump and we are looking at 7th or 8th. Still a lot to be done!
Nice one dude. This brought a tear to my eye and gave me goose bumps. Sounded like the rallying speech in the final scene of the movie 300.
“Super Quality” Double 98
Hi Redders,
Your story abount the 2 punks in the car park can never be beaten though, still laugh everytime i think about it.
Amazing article. Honored to read it.
Read a talksport piece before this where they tried to prove that the current City team is better than the Invincibles. Felt like puking. Feeling better now. 🙂
What is interesting is that you can now write a piece like this and, in 36 responses, there is not one spilling bile and abusing you for supporting Arsene. Just imagine what this would have been like 6 weeks ago!!
That is a measure of the progress.
Afternoon all.
That’s a stirring post Double with some compelling oratory when you describe our return from the horrors of the start of the season.
I whole heatedly agree with your view that praise ole bacon face gets is completely disproportionate to his achievements and resources available.
Most regulars on AA know my view that all things ManUre are always painted in a rosy light by a sycophantic manure loving press.
My only quibble is that like Gooner Sam I feel Wenger has to shoulder some of the blame for the disastrous transfer window(up till the last day) we had.
Also, without wishing to undermine Wenger’s undoubted achievements, we should be looking to be a club that makes players want to sign for Arsenal and not Wenger the manager.
I was a Gooner before Wenger joined and will still be one when he leaves.
Brilliant. As articulate and classy as the person it is written about.
Hi CharyB, 🙂
I think you will find that the questioning of Fergiebum was me, not D98.
He was rightly pointing out Ferguson’s achievements, and despite my irritation with SAF, that cannot be denied, while I was just saying it was achieved in a similar monied way to the Chavs, and now Citeh, whereas AW has never had much money and his achievements were based on his own merits and astute bargain buys, and not that of a money inspired splash in the transfer market.
Chary,
You’re a Heavy Metallist which means your opinion counts less. So cheer up you miserrable toad. 🙂
chary,
Wenger the manager and Arsenal the club are inextricably intertwined at the moment because he is the incumbent.
Do you honestly think any of us will stop being a Gooner when Wenger leaves? Sounds a bit like the Arsenal FC not Arsene FC line from LG.
Seriously? I have seen some crazy posts in my time fella but this one has to take the biscuit. The main thrust of the argument seems to be: Arsene Wenger is better than Alex Ferguson because in 12 weeks he has managed to get his team to perform well. I just don’t see how such spurious logic could form the backbone of a well thought out argument. Frankly, it is quite laughable to even mention them in the same breath in terms of success.
Now I am in no way saying Wenger is not a very good manager. Yes, that is right, very good…not great. Not the greatest of his generation. He is very good, successful and I love his philosophy. But continued sustained success has eluded him. Also, Wenger has had to contend with hellish problems, I totally agree, and yet…are they not of his own making? Everyone and his dog could see Fabregas was leaving. The lack of replacements was what did for Nasri in my opinion. So using your logic, is Arsene also the worst ever manager for not adequately preparing and insulating the club against this?
As for Red Arse…well the name says it all really. Yes money is always a factor. It was a factor when Man United were trying to sign players early in Fergusons reign at United and…they couldn’t get them. They would go to the top team of that time, which was Liverpool. Or in the number of European transfers United just could not match first Italian then Spanish competitors for. Or you could point to how hard it was in Europe when trying to play with only 3 non English players…the lists go on and on. Yes United have spent a lot of money, but it is not out of proportion…and are the only club to spend only really what they generate (at that level).
The one area where Wenger is totally top of the tree is in making success on a shoe-string budget. He really has done miracles in that regard and yet I do feel it is more his philosophy not the boards that held Arsenal back. With a little more investment you would be in a much stronger position, but he does deserve full credit for his talent spotting, ethos of play, genius at getting players in and then selling them on.
However I would ask you to think about on thing…is this also not directly linked to lack of continued success? One reason Man United make less as a percentage as Arsenal in terms of players in/out is because they do not sell their players in their prime (mainly) and usually when they are on the wane. I mean it isn’t like Arsenal HAVENT spent, and spent big too. Sure maybe not the £30 million mark, but AOC and Walcott are just two examples of heavy spending (around the Ronaldo mark I would say). But the difference is Arsenal sell on their best players in their prime, so therefore the balance sheet looks better but the trophy cabinet doesn’t. Do I think Wenger should be sacked? Ermm…no. I think he should have a job for life. However I also think we need a little realism. SAF has broken the domination of the Glasgow clubs in Scotland, beaten Real Madrid in the Cup Winners Cup final (when it really did mean something) and what he has done with United is just unbelievable. I am sorry to disagree, but Arsene Wenger is not as good as Alex Ferguson.
TMHT @ 10:59 🙂
Clive Allen looks like my old gran and she’s been dead 35 years.
Perhaps Wenger didn’t shake your hand
….because of this.
Hi Nik, thanks for such a detailed and reasoned response. This site welcomes input from any blogger who cares to submit a post as long as it is well written and conforms with the rules of AA.
As you have observed, today’s author is a huge AW fan like many on the site, but there are others who will have sympathy with your view. I think a lot of supporters have been disgusted by some of the bile directed at the manager and are eager for any opportunity to redress the balance.
Hi Rasp,
I do hope that my comment did not come across with lack of respect for Arsene Wenger…in fact I think he is a fantastic coach. He has some weaknesses for sure…but I remember watching Arsenal under George Graham and Wenger is light years ahead. However I do think he could have been even more successful, most notably the team developed post Viera-Petit midfield that was so good. We must remember he did a whole Prem season undefeated…that isn’t accidental, that is talent. That is a top manager in action…as I said, a shame he didn’t follow it up. But that is where, for me, Ferguson is unequalled. He has built top sides on a consistent basis over a number of years. Oh and for clarity I am not an Arsenal fan, but I *AM* a fan of football and let’s be honest, Barcelona aside, I haven’t seen any side Arsenal should be ashamed to set themselves against, for they do have the most beautiful attacking football when in full flow (well before having have a creative team ripped out).
Hi Nik, that is a very impressive and well-balanced comment you made there. There is quite a lot I don’t agree with, but at least you said it all in a reasoned and polite way.
I don’t think Double98 is necessarily saying Arsene is the better manager (but he might well believe that), but, that what he has achieved in recent weeks – the big turnaround against all the odds and with tremendous pressure – impresses him more than Ferguson’s career achievements. It is a bit bold and biased perhaps, but I think he’s shown enough appreciation of AF’s achievements at the start of his article, and this is, in the end, an Arsenal blog.
One question for you: in, say 20 years time from now, how do you think the ‘experts’ will reflect on the period between 1995-2015, as in who was the best manager, taking into account that winning cups is not the only measurement for success?
Chas,
ha ha ha. I forgot about that.
Nik the Red,
Fact is when Arsene didn’t have the constraints of the Ashburton Grove move, he was more than matching Sir Alex on a much smaller budget, this can not be denied. It is this reality which caused the acrimony between the 2 managers, the Utd board were probably thinking at the time, hold on a minute, this guy has less cash to play with and hes doing us.
Great stuff Nik. For me the disappointment with the Invincibles was that they didn’t have the same success in Europe. If they’d have won a CL trophy (and they were good enough to do it) then they would really be regarded as one of the best teams of all time.
I share some of your reservations over AW’s performance in recent years but have to factor in all the behind the scenes pressures (financial and otherwise).
I certainly think AW is the best manager ever in the premiership in terms of results compared to expenditure, but there are some issues not allied to finance that I don’t understand – why the hell did he persist with Almunia for so long? Many will say because he realised the potential Sz possessed and wanted to wait for him to come through, but I believe that Almuinia may have cost us the league in two seasons.
Nik. Interesting and you are entitled to your view, however to come onto an Arsenal website and expect anyone to agree that SAF is a better manager than AW is inevitably doomed to failure.
MU have been a huge club throughout the post-war period, almost constantlyly the richest and best supported club in English football – of course they have a financial advantage. They also have the advantage of glamour – why else would David Beckham, a lad who lived 300 miles away be besotted by the club?
SAF and AW are both great managers who have created more than one great team. Both have brought huge benefits to English football. SAF may well have more silverware but given the advantages he has had it is no wonder; he has not presided over a stadium move in times of economic strife. SAF has reserves who cost more than double Arsenal’s most expensive signing …. I could go on.
One point you are wrong about is that AFC sell players in their prime. Yes, Nasri and Cesc and possibly Vieira went too early, – now name me another who has gone on to have a better career than he had at Arsenal.
Would SAF have won as much as AW had he been manager of Arsenal? Probably not ….
Chas,
That second pic is so funny, its like AW looking at the fat bastard and thinking “oh for fuck’s sake grow up”.
We all know why Clive Allen is such a chippy little git. He signed for The Arsenal and lasted two weeks before being flogged!
Well said Raddy, comparing the two is a bit like comparing formula one drivers – its spurious because they’re driving different cars.
I have no doubt that AW has got more out of his set of players under such stifling constraints than SAF would have achieved. I do not think it is Arsene’s way to try to buy instant success so we could not know how he would have fared if in charge of manu.
This next pic is not for the faint-hearted.
http://twitpic.com/7cexwk/full
Winning bid £1.41……..hahahahahahaha
Ohh, Total Arsenal you are a bad man, I need to work and you draw me in again! Thanks for the polite post. I am a firm believer in disagreements being correctly framed for the edification of all. Quite frankly we ALL have tinted glasses so I find it much nicer to have an informed debate. We may not end up in agreement but that is part of the fun for me.
So, to the post, I am not saying AW is not successful. Clearly he is and cups are not an only measure, albeit a large one. I think in time people will forget how much Ferguson spent, but remember his success. Wenger will be remembered for his financial accumen AND his success. Will this make him a more highly regarded manager? I doubt it, as the disparity in trophies is quite big, but it is possible. I do not think it is a question of who is better to be honest. They are both top notch. When a milestone arrives for Wenger, or he leaves, then I think all football fans should stand up and salute the changes he ushered into the English leagues. He is, quite honestly, an outstanding manager and person (even if I do hate his legendery blindness! 🙂 )
Terry Mancini, you are spot on. He did it on a shoe-string and is the best I have ever seen in terms of return on investment. But teams are cyclical and I think the thrust of the argument for Ferguson is that continued success. People forget the shambles we were when he took over, let me tell you…we were like a rotten apple. Some nice colouring on the outside, maybe even pretty, but inside was just a total mess.
Rasp…sounds like we could have a great drink over a football debate there, you are very lucid in your points. I agree, it is a shame Arsenal never conquered Europe. To be honest if United are knocked out, I would want Arsenal to win it. For style, for ethos, for many, many reasons I think more than any English club they deserve it. The Invincbles were phenomenal, and yes it is a shame they never won the CL, but let us take nothing away from what they did succeed at. Europe is hard, very hard, to win…we all know that. A bit more fortunue and you would have done it. But then the beauty of football (I am sure you recognise this from your fellows in North London) is that there is always next year ‘this is our year’ to look forward to.
As for the goalkeeping situation, he may have thought to wait for your current keeper, who looks like a beast of a player. Or he may not have found one. United had a laughable succession of keepers post Schmeichael, so there could be many reasons. I think the defence as a whole is a mess up on AW behalf. He never adequately replaced the outgoing personnel. I also think his biggest failing is not strengthening from a position of strength, something United have consistently done. That being said I FULLY and wholeheartedly agree…Arsene Wenger is without doubt the best manager I have ever seen in terms of success/investment as a ratio. Would I change Sir Alex? Never. Do I admit Wenger is better value for money? Totally…on that I am quite sure Wenger is legendery.
Oh and one final point: Raddy I do not agree, but do respect your points. I do not expect any Arsenal fan to stand up and ‘see the light’ 🙂 I just enjoy an informed debate, which this one seems to be. No aggro with kids spouting off, just proper blokes debating a game they love. Nice work on making a fan of another club feel able to interact. I hope you keep up the good work 🙂
Chas,
ha ha ha, your killing me here.
Nik the Red,
I take my wig off to you, very fair comments.
Nik. Thanks. Please come back, it has been a pleasure reading your opinion . You should have been a Gooner 🙂 )
BR _ I think Nik IS a Gooner. Come out of the closet Nik, you know it makes sense.
…oh by the way, I think Ronaldo was sold before he reached his prime, don’t you?
Damn,
I seem to have missed Nik the Red.
In case you come back for a read, I think it would be hard to cross swords with you. Like all debate there are often mutually agreed points mixed in with the diametrically opposed positions.
If you read my comment, you will see that I agreed with D98’s opening paragraph lauding SAF, because his achievements cannot be denied.
That being said, as the rest of the Post was mainly about AW and how he has turned things around for Arsenal, I wanted to highlight the monetary disadvantage he was working under.
I did say I cannot stand SAF, and I cannot stomach many of the Manyoo fans, most of whom seem to live in the Home Counties. Sorry, but that is something I cannot apologise for.
Anyway, perhaps you might have started to shift the balance of my perceptions, with your objective and discursive rather than dismissive responses. Well done! 🙂
Nik the Red @1.53, I agree with most of what you said in the second paragraph. Over time two things are remembered: cups (especially when they are won in succession) and style of football. MU have won a lot under SAF and to do this so consistently as well is simply phenomenal.
Re style of football, you only have to look at the Dutch national team: won hardly anything compared to Germany or Italy, yet most football fans speak highly of how they play(ed) football, many decades later. I think the same will happen to Arsenal over time, although I am not saying that MU have not played some good football themselves over the years. It just has become a little bit too calculated, and less pleasing to the eye recently.
The next four years will be very interesting. Will MU continue to dominate and win cups (decent enough chance if SAF stays on)? Will your neighbours buy their way to success for the foreseeable future? Will Arsenal finally settle a bit and build another great team? Will somebody else fill the void? Nobody knows for sure and that is why we all like football so much. The rose-tinted glasses are of course obligatory 🙂
Hey guys, thanks for the friendliness. Definately not a closet Gunner, being one of the few reds born in the city SOMEONE needs to remind people Manchester isn’t just a cute honorific…the club is actually from there (no Trafford comments please 🙂 ) but I AM a fan of the expansive style of play Wenger has bequethed to Arsenal. Quite simply I am a little jelous because it is great to watch (hand on heart the only team I have enjoyed watching more in full flow than Arsenal is Barcelona, and they are the best I have ever seen… United are more functionally beautiful. More end product but less beauty than your boys at their peak), but then again I can’t complain too much as we play good stuff too. However another point no-one has made is that Wenger has left a philosophy of play for all future Arsenal managers to adopt. Ferguson picked up Matt Busby’s philosophy and adapted it. To me, that is a massive gift to Arsenal from Wenger…the Barcelona-esque template.
Illybongani…Ronaldo most certainly was sold well before his prime had passed (I think I quantified my comment on that, but if not then let us say MOSTLY sold when on the wane), the man is a beast, but we got a good price and he handled it well as far as I am concerned. We all know he gave us an extra year and selfish **** or not, he has our respect for that.
Red Arse…apologies. I re-read what I posted and it came out badly! I did not intend to be rude and it reads in a very rude way, so unreserved apologies for that. And I don’t blame you for not liking most of our fans, I have to be honest and say I don’t like most of them myself 🙂 Sadly there is a trend in football for fans to tag themselves onto successful clubs and yet be so miopic in their outlook that the true fans voices are lost in the general bile spouted by these johnnycomelatelys.
Just reading through that debate with Nik reminds me of how lucky we are to have this site as I’m sure Nik selected the destination of his comments with thought.
Obviously I know about the work put in by Rasp and Peaches, but it would be very nice to have a detailed history of how the site came about.
Big thank you’s are in order from me.
wow, this blog is top notch, so full of logic reasoning bloggers and not blinded ones.
Nik the Red, you are sure a true fan, devoid of sentiments, how I feel I can be more humble like you.
In all, I think there is only but a thin line between AW and SAF. Their successes cannot be taking in isolation without factoring in Finance availability.
To a great blog and great bloggers – Cheers
“Manchester City have fined defender Kolo Toure £740,000 for the failed drugs test that saw him banned for six months. Toure has accepted the fine of six weeks’ wages….”
Six weeks’ wages!
Chas re. your 12.57
My comment about Wenger leaving was more directedsat the attractiveness of Arsenal for a player to sign for post Wenger; what I meant was what would we be such a pull for talents to sign for when he leaves ? So if a player signs for Wenger then does he then follow him to a new club since he signed for Arsene FC not The Arsenal ?
Additionally I don’t think it wise that a football club(or any organisation) is so reliant/dependant on any one person, however dominant, so that if he is no longer there the entity’s continued operation is impaired.
Redders – serves me right for scroll reading quickly, I was sure the headline post made the points about the media worship of the purple nose.
Hi Timmy,
Thanks for the endorsement, I hope we can enjoy the pleasure of your company more often.
chary,
There’s no such thing as Arsene FC, that’s the whole point.
It’s a fiction invented by those looking to have a dig at Wenger.
Who knows who the next Arsenal manager might be? If it was Pep Guardiola would the players want to stay? It’s a hypothetical question.
Do players sign for Alex Ferguson or Man United, Harry Nutsack or the Spuds? It doesn’t make any sense, in my opinion.
Haven’t commented on here for quite some time but it doesn’t mean I haven’t been reading.
Just want to say that is a top, top post Double 98!
Really cracking read and a clear reminder of how we’ve fought our way back to form (am I allowed to say we’re on a run of form yet, or is it still too early? Can I mention the hallowed cliche “turned the corner”?) and above all who is responsible.
Up the Arse!
Nik wrote:
‘However another point no-one has made is that Wenger has left a philosophy of play for all future Arsenal managers to adopt. Ferguson picked up Matt Busby’s philosophy and adapted it. To me, that is a massive gift to Arsenal from Wenger…the Barcelona-esque template.’
Chapeau to that. I rather call it the total-football template: Cruijff, Van Gaal and Rijkaard have all contributed to it over the years – but Barca have moved it to another level of perfection under Guardiola.
Like others have said, hope to see you again on here.
To comment on Niks point. Managers can only be taken in the context that they worked in. I can’t bear the manc manager but he is obviously the most successful and he had success with Aberdeen too. Would he succeed on the budget Wenger has has? We’ll never know. Would Wenger be able to manage the mancs ? We don’t know that either. There are probably some fantastic managers who never quite got the right club. Personally I don’t think twitchy could ever manage a big club. He’d better stick with the spuds. I’m suprised the post didn’t get a lot of stick from the “akb” haters.
Chas, the Barca players know they are playing for a grand clunb with a great tradition, the sort of heritage most clubs should aspire, even though they do essentially operate in a SPL style two team league, but with sun and more technical ability.
So when Pep goes they’ll no doubt stay.
Can we say many of our signings joined becasue of us being Arsenal or they thought Wenger would give them more playing time ? How much loyalty have players like Nasri, Ade-barndoor, Flamini, Diarra and Toure shown to the club let as soon as it suited them to leave ?
On a coincidental point about the twitcher he does enjoy having players he signed at previous clubs follow him around, like Crouch, Kaboul and others.
As for having a dig at Wenger, not really but I think we’ll have to agree to disagree on that one.
Hi Rasp,
You can count on it. Already looking forward to the next blockbuster
Anyway, that’s enough of the Man U Love-In – let’s take Nik outside and duff him up ;0)
How much loyalty have the mercenaries Nasri, Ade-barndoor, Flamini, Diarra and Toure shown to Wenger? (which seemed to be the crux of your argument).
Agree to disagree entirely.
Great read D98.
Raw emotion and plenty of reason, stirred gently and simmered to perfection.
My only gripe is that I think you are slightly over-rating the abilities of the FGB. (That’s right – not the BFG, the FGB – Fat Greedy Benchwarmer).
Wonderful discussion with Nik the Red. It’s so nice to be able to have an intelligent debate with an oppo fan once in a while. (Nik, you may not like this, but the last time we had a good, friendly back-and-forth was with someone called Blue Valentine, who supports your noisy neighbours).
My own take on it is that SAF, had he been parachuted into Arsenal at the time of the stadium move, would not have been able to keep the team competitive (ie in the top four) with the financial resources that were available.
However, that’s because he is not that type of manager. He has become used to staying at the top by being able to strengthen with the highest quality as and when needed, even if there’s a big price tag attached. So in a sense it’s an unfair comparison – he and AW manage in different ways.
One strength I feel SAF has had (at times) over AW is his ability to get sometimes average players to fight like tigers for the cause. Arsene talks a lot about “mental strength” but over the last couple of years there’s been much more of that particular quality in evidence at Old Trafford than at the Emirates.
It’s changing now, though (hopefully) 🙂
Chas, CharyB,
If you both agree to disagree, you realize you are agreeing, I take it? 🙂
This is confusing a simple mind like mine. Can’t you both disagree to agree. NOW you disagree!
Where is TerryM when you need him — he could express that as an algebraic formula in a trice. 🙂
Red Arse – loved your PC PC comment yesterday. Made me titter, I don’t think it received the tittering it deserved so let me redress the tittering balance
A titter ran through the audience.
Then he was apprehended by stewards and ejected from the theatre.
Arrgghh, Redders you’ve got my heads spinnig now – is it better to disagree to agree, civilty wise, disagree to disagree, or agree to disagree ?
Or how about Pax Britannica, does that apply ? How doe sone do the confused smiley, I’ve only ever mastered the smile and wink.
Illybongani
I’m working on a PP presentation that I’m using on Monday. I’ve never done one before but it’s looking ok. It’s all pictures. Is there anything I need to worry about? (Your cheque’s in the post)
Illy,
Now you’ve got me tittering! 🙂
Anyway, as you wanted to duff up poor old NikR, can I remind you that as a taxpayer I am technically your boss, and I have to say you are displaying far too much humor and intelligence, and this has got to stop.
I will not have any employee showing me up to be a curmudgeonly dimwit.
If we both make it to the Tavern before the Fulham game, I will have to buy you a pint! No wait! You will have to buy me a pint!
Oh to hell with it – we can both buy each other a pint – but none for Rasp, it makes him aggressive and then he frightens me. 🙂
Rocky,
You really need those glasses. The titter was definitely female – or perhaps you know some very strange men!! 🙂
that Pax Britannica ain’t what it was since Baron Anton Ferdinand was racially abused by John Terry
…allegedly
Good day Redders
Depends on your definition of a titter!
That’s actually an old Frankie Howerd joke, where I always took it that the ‘titter’ was a man running through the audience squeezing ladies in the vicinity of their embonpoint. 🙂
goonermichael – yes! The first rule of Powerpoints = Less is more. Too many and too much text = Death By Powerpoint!
Red Arse – I am so sorry. How ungrateful of me…thank you so much for paying my wages. My wife and kids will be eternally grateful for putting a roof over our heads and food on our table. I will, of course, buy you as many pints as you can imbibe when the opportunity arises.
CharyB, 🙂
That’s why we need TerryM – he is an accredited genius — in your enforced absence he gave a very detailed and impressive explanation of the AFC accounts — so let’s wait for his algebraic formula to help us out. 🙂
I had a similar discussion with my mates down the pub, on this ‘agree to disagree’ phrase. I offered it as a get out to Will, with whom I was at loggerheads. He said “better yet, I’ll smack you in the teeth!”
I had to remind him that at 5’11” he was in no position to reach my teeth. On that we agreed and peace was restored! 🙂
Where’s TerryM? Teeeeeerry …….. Oh, Terrrry …..
RA – of course I will only be able to buy you lots of alcohol as long as goonermichael’s cheque doesn’t bounce
That’s more like it Illy! 🙂
It’s always heartening to see gratitude from a man to whom I have contributed, at least, 0.00000000000000001p to his wages last year.
Mind you, I haven’t paid any tax this year, so I’ll have to owe it to you this year if that’s OK? 🙂
Then we are doomed, Illy. 😦
GM is not known as the hairdressing King of Bounce for nothing! 🙂
Interpreting the AFC accounts Redders ? Double arrgghh – after my last attmepot at a post where I sent everyone to sleep with my thoughts on FFP I’m kinda glad Terry of the syrup tackled that hornet’s nest. 🙂
Rocky,
‘Frankie Howerd’ who he? 🙂
Ney ney and thrice ney!
RA – that’s fine we’re all on a pay freeze for the foreseeable future so that 0.00000000000000001p will be worth about 25% less in 5 years, assuming inflation keeps on as it is. So weigh me in then if you like, I’ll probably need it more then.
Infamy! Infamy! They’ve all got it infamy!
GM,
Not that I am any expert, you understand. 🙂
But a Powerpoint presentation usually has some key words or phrases to emphasise your presentation, so that the audience can follow your chain of thought, and take home printed copies to remind them afterwards about what you had told them.
Altho’, if the pictures are to emphasise certain hair styles at salient points in your presentation, that will work too.
I know nothing! take no notice! 🙂
Illy,
Infamy? That is one of the dangers of letting Micky play with the ‘insert’ key. He will certainly have you shouting “in for me”. 🙂
Oooh Er, Missus …. titter ye not
Rasper,
Have you let that bloody horse in again?
Were you still across the pond when Frankie Howerd had his heyday Red Arse? …. somehow I think his humour would have been right up your street ….. “oh well, please yourself”
CharyB,
Those were my very thoughts too. I was keeping very shtum! (is that how it is spelt? — Now we need Kelsey). 🙂
However, TerryM produced a really good and patient explanation for the non-accountants and no one went to sleep.
Rasp, my man, I still haven’t a clue who this Frankie is, as the Rock has not responded to my inquiry yet! 🙂
Anyhow, my excel macro, beautifully designed – by me- has crashed, and I have to get a stick and beat the bastard.
Tomorrow, you lovely AAers! 🙂
I dont want to get too excited with our current run just in case the wheels fall off. We still have to hope the teams above drop points but most dont look like they will, even the spuds are winning ugly!.
If your expectations are a little lower then the landing will be softer, nothing wrong in dreaming of winning something , just dont expect it.
Wenger is an amazing Manager and all the plaudit`s, accolade`s are well deserving but he is human and his frailty was seen in the TW and before, It`s coming across as though he made miracle`s in the TW, I think he`s had a decent one, but with better planning it should and could have been better . Lets keep our feet on the ground.
Redders
He was a camp comedian on British TV from the early 1970s.
His big hit show was called ‘Up Pompeii’ and was set in the ancient Roman period.
Illy
Sorry to be pedantic, but the Infamy Infamy line is Kenneth Williams, from Carry on Cleo!
Just seen that compilation of Frankie Howerd Rasp. Thank you. I don’t know him, but he has a great, lugubrious face
Once I tuned into the accent he was very funny. 🙂
I actually have met Barry Cryer tho’, and had dinner with him (and others) before one of his shows. He then picked on me all the way thru his act about things I had said to him — the swine 🙂 but he was absolutely hysterically funny.
We had several beers together after the show, and I foolishly tried to match him joke for joke.
He was really down to earth and laughed (politely) at some of my stuff, but for future reference don’t bother taking him on — he is so awesome, you simply can’t tell more than a couple of jokes because you are laughing at him so much!! great guy! 🙂
Really off now!
Illy
Apart from my logo at the beginning I havent got any text. Just pictures. It’s more like a slide show that I’ll be talking about. I was thinking about format problems. I’m taking it on a stick and UI’ll take my laptop to be safe.
Another masterpiece from D98. Truly one of the best post I ever read on AA. Thank you.
You guys (apologies to the fairer sex is any of you are) are good fun, I have to say! I have no desire to be ‘duffed’ up, but maybe if my fellow United fans would engage in debate there may be no need? 🙂 Regardless I just wanted to say what fun it was to interact with you guys, hopefully I will see you about and congratulations on lively and friendly debate. I post on TeamTalk sometimes and I feel like a kindergarten teacher…
Total Arsenal – Doh! I had forgotten the Dutch, now that was a beautiful philosophy to develop. I think all countries tend to have a football ‘philosophy’ but very few clubs are left a legacy like that. I think clubs like Inter Milan (didn’t their coach devise the libero?) dropped and moved on. Barcelona haven’t changed it since Cruyff left and I hope you guys keep it post Wenger.
Goonermichael, very fair point mate. So hard to contrast, but I feel you are right. It’s the same question as ‘Would Cantona have been as legendary anywhere else’? We all have views but we will never be able to know the full truth of it. Rocky, I don’t agree mainly because he did it at Aberdeen with no money, however I can’t completely dismiss the comments, they may well be true! Fully agree with the mentality thing. Fact is we have not always been ‘the best team’ but have frequently been the best ‘team’. A lot of that is to the mental strength and pure bloody-mindedness Fergie instills. It annoys everyone else and is not particularly sporting, but I will take that any day of the week and twice on Saturdays!!
I think the saddest thing at the moment for me is the probable loss of this ethos of wise investment. The stats for Arsenals net spend are just crazy, what Wenger has done with the budget is unbelievable. Not that he hasn’t spent, he has spent plenty. But he has recouped it to such a degree that I think you are close to breaking even on the transfer spend/recoup table? Whichever way with Man City, Chelsea, United all already spending way above you…the last Champs League slot is now very tight and may force a slightly different approach. I hope not, but it is likely. What do you guys think?
According to Talksport, “Le Cog” is not happy with lack of playing time and is considering his future, shame as I thought he looked impressive in a few games.
Great, great and great writing I read till the humiliation……….thank u so much………..Double 98.
Nik,
Your last question is a biggy. In brief my view is that Pool and Tottenham are spending way above a sustainable business model particularly when you throw into the equation both need to fund new stadium developments which will inevitably peg them back. I really cannot see anyone competing with City if they carry on. I know the biggest spenders don’t always walk off with all the silverware (Madrid) but City’s spending is on a whole new level.
The Arsenal model does require the Fair Play Rules to be effective, although I don’t believe they will.
Oh jeepers, just been reading about the FIFA poppy fiasco.
Micky. A good reading of the situation.
GLIC the problem with that sentence is it starts with “according to TalkSport” 😀 This time of night I’m guessing Durham and Gough are on so anything to put a dig or two in Arsenal direction on a slow international week is lapped up by them.
A quick Google of Coquelin News Articles and this is the only article I could come up with:
“I didn’t expect to play that much at the beginning of the season. I came back from the World Cup and then played straight away at Manchester United. He gave me another chance in the Carling Cup and I grabbed it. I think I have done quite well”
Then there is the one on NewsNow from France Football which is reported by TalkSport, i do not speak French but Google gives a translation to TalkSports take on it.
GiE,
There’s little to talk about if you are dim as well as don’t have a D98 Postage at your fingertips, to say nothing of the fact that your audience are sensationalist SUN reader types. Sound familiar 🙂
Off to get logs in.
Nik,
One of the regulars on here,Irishgunner produced a table on the net spending on tranfers in the decade upto 2011-12. It was on the Nov` 6th blog @5:29pm.
1: Chavs spent £540m.
2: Noisy Neighbours spent £504m.
3: Squeeky Neighbours/ tiny tots/spuds spent £232m.
4: `pool spent £207m.
5: Manu spent £172m.
We made £4m+.
My source of amusement is the staggering amount of Trophy`s the spuds won for that amount, a League Cup, money well spent ! 🙂
D98, awesome post,
Amen, all hail Arsene Wenger……….
Rasp, Great Banner…………..
GiE,
Fair point,I`m off to get a pinch of salt. 🙂
Here are the answers to the ‘footballers when they were young’ picture quiz posted by the Rasper at 9:32 this morning.
Don’t look if you still want a go!
http://twitpic.com/7chw7h/full
chas,
Gerrard in a Everton kit !, Carragher is an Evertonian aswell, If supporters played for their teams, Everton would have done a lot better ! ,wasn`t Michael Owen a toffee aswell ?.
Hi all
First chance to check in – work really does interfere with blogging sadly.
Many thanks to Double 98 for a great post. It’s interesting that someone pointed out that this post may not have been so well received had it been written 6 weeks ago but it’s evidence of how bizarre the Premiership as a competition can be. If we were third now – without our poor start to the season, we wouldn’t be surprised but Newcastle supporters must pinch themselves every time they look at the Table. If we manage to get to fourth by the new year it’ll be a great achievement and I’ll be very cross with anyone who voices the opposite.
We, the whole Arsenal Arsenal community know we are extremely lucky to attract so many willing writers and excellent bloggers. Many of you put a lot of work on a regular basis into writing articles and the blog would not have been able to survive without you guys and those of you who check in daily for a chat.
I’m not able to be around in the day at the moment but I always sit with a glass of red and read through the days comments. Cheers 🙂
Special thanks to GiE and Harry who allow me to bully them mercilessly when needing a post at the drop of a hat 😳 oh and 26may and Rocky.
Speaking of posts – we still need a few to see us through to next Friday.
Brilliant Post! give him a knighthood I say. its beautiful to witness the silent brit press – in effect their apology!
Shocking bad planning, on realising that Double 98 hadn’t blogged today I sent him an email and he’s just told me he was out of the office today!!!!!! Hope someone’s around when he comes on
glic,
Rumour has it (probably put about by Gerrard himself) that he was set up by an Evertonian uncle.
The thought of putting on a spud shirt makes me feel physically ill.
chas. Beautiful picture of TH.
Under no circumstances could I wear a Spurs shirt.
This is true …….
I have my house keys colour coded. Red for the front door, blue for the back door.
My wife asked why and I told her that Spurs were back-door men (do I need to explain Micky?)
MickyDidIt89 you make a very sound point, one the clubs will have to work out for themselves. United have been very fortunate with our stadium as we had the foresight to own all the land around it. We are also lucky not to be in London as the property pricing is so much more favourable. Manchester City are just the current big spenders, we all thought the same about Chelsea when Abramovich came in but the league found its new equilibrium and it will again.
But the FFP rules wont work on their own. The problem is the disparity in earnings from top to bottom. Football is now a business and naturally some companies will be bigger than others, that is the way of the world. You can’t turn round to the clubs and cap their wages/spend limits when the disparity is so big as what is fair for Man Utd will be ruinous for Blackpool. So the FFP is not going to help clubs keep their affairs in order and if they do it as a percentage of revenue then it kind of makes it a full business and kills the sport. So…
What UEFA/FIFA need to do is completely restructure the revenue models for its competitions. They need to distribute the Champions League money to the clubs, maybe even allow another one or two in and equal out how much is distributed to the UEFA cup teams so that we have as many clubs as possible benefiting from the cash. The next thing they need to do is adopt the Premier League TV deal and make it mandatory across all regions. So the clubs cannot sell TV rights, only the league can. It is then distributed EQUALLY across participating clubs with some kept aside for league finish bonuses.
I think if they do it that way we give as much chance to developing clubs as to the established ones. Only then can we look to bring in a model for the FFP where clubs are limited to spending something like what they can generate. If we do it as is, now, then I think it will end up being as unfair as things are now.
Nik. Good points.
If I represented one of the top 6 clubs, then I would be advising that they unite and re-negotiate the TV deal. It is the top clubs who attract the cable paying viewer., Wigan ect cannot even sell out their grounds let alone attract a viewing audience.
I would be looking for money distribution connected to viewing figures.
This season we have been lucky enough to have seen some really brilliant games between the top 5 (Newcastle and L’pool are dullness personified). Mu/MC, CH/AFC, MU/AFC, TH/MC will live long in the memory and games like these will continue to attract viewers.
As to an even playing field where small clubs have the opportunity to develop into big clubs I am afraid that is history, without huge investment it won’t happen. Just look at Aston Villa who have spent millions.
Nik,
Very good points, but do not forget that ffp allows capital investments,i.e ground redevopment, training facilities, youth setups etc.
TMHT. As long as clubs don’t pay agents millions of pounds for 10 year olds I see no problem here. As Nik says, these are big businesses and big businesses spend loads of money on research and development.
Zulu
“the Silence of the Brit press is their way of apologizing”
Brilliant comment.
Raddy, I completely agree but am stubborn enough to look for a way to even things out. Even though the top teams attract the viewers I feel it is a little self-defeating to divide the revenue by league form or appeal. Without more of a share of the money Wigan wouldn’t be able to develop enough to give Arsenal a good game either…how crazy is it all? Villa, and Spurs to a large extent, have spent but not achieved much recently for sure. Some of that is bad management, some circumstance.
Liverpool really suffered this under Rafa as even though he spent pots of money, the amount he needed to invest it in meant he couldn’t go out and buy a £30million first teamer, or even a £25million. He had to buy Pennant for what I think was 10mill? My point is that not only is it hard to attract the top names, even if you can the finances mean you can’t afford to buy at top market rate.
We did it with Ronaldo, Wenger with about 3 sides so far. That for me is what sets him apart from any other manager…how he has found, polished and developed sensational players without spending any money. Astonishing! But he is unique, not all bosses can do that. So that’s why we need to get some kind of FFP, in my opinion anyway. But I can quite happily say I can be wrong. If it was as easy as this some bright spark would have done it maybe 🙂
Absoloutly Raddy.
Chas – so i guessed Wayne and Giggs
Evonne,
You didn’t guess, you used all of your feminine intuitive powers to root out the two Mancs. 🙂
Apologies to Nik the Red, of course. 🙂
I am raging i missed the chat today.. thanks for the many kind comments!!
The piece was written when the heart met the mind as I felt that the last 4 months has been a crucifiction for the arsenal fan. I had to see how i felt about Le Boss and when i judged him on the worst of days i still found him to be the best.
Its ok to celebrate a guy who wins leagues by spending the most money and / or having the most glamourous club… but it does nothing for me, Arsene Wenger encompasses the athenian spirit of sport and achievement through hard work, dedication and belief, our Arsenal is a shining bastion of sporting endeavour based on nurturing talent.
If in Arsene i rust then slap my bumper and haul me off to the junkyard because one thing is for sure – we won’t see his like again.
Nik. Ah, The feeder club issue…. !!
You are so lucky to support a team who never get that epithet thrown at them.
(Is a team a that or a whom ?)
Night Alll
D98. Thanks again for a super post and one which generated much discussion. Well played.
What is an attacking Quarterback?
Hi Dial Square – its like a defensive quarter back but more attacky…
Seriously tho its the fulcrum of the team that dictates the pace, movement, lenght and variety of the teams use of the ball.
Double there is no such position in football, sorry to be predantic, but it’s defender, midfield or forward. You can be an attacking or defensive midfielder.
Nik the Red – there was no real attempt at comparison between Arsene Wenger and Sir Alex – our comparisons would only be subjective – ur rebuttel proves that to a degree – without getting into an argument – i don’t necessarily subscribe trophies to success or talent…
Mancini wouldn’t move the needle on a managerial talent competition but if he works within the reality that he has now he will eclipse mourinho, wenger and even ferguson in trophies – will his entire haul match ferguson’s first FA Cup or Wenger’s opening Double?
for me – no
Wenger has had to work in a different paradigm (whether self imposed or not)… the comparison i aimed for was one of the heart –
Evonne,
I didn’t realise you got Ronaldo and Ronaldinho, too. Definitely the winner.
D98,
Great post written from the heart.
Don’t let Dial wind you up, he couldn’t be arsed to post on LG today so he’s come over here to attack.
Dial Square, you need to use your imagination 🙂
Dial – its funny you lay down a rule that you can be a defender, midfield or forward and in the next sentence you qualify it with more positions. You can be an attacking full back a holding midfielder, a winger, a striker a centre forward, a centrehalf, a sweeper, a schemer or a goal keeper – they all have meanings in the game and i used quarterback as a way to describe not just the position that cesc played but also the importance – u don’t have to agree it wasn;t meant literally…
chas not sure what your point is about Le Grove, yes i comment on there as well as other blogs. i thought it was a reasonable question
Sorry i just have never heard of a quarterback, and have been going to football for a very long time, still each to his own
Chas 🙂
D98,
I’ve just looked for an FA cup 1998 video and found this.
Joining late, work a serious distraction from the important stuff in life right now. Apols.
Double, there’s not a lot I can add by way of comments, but mate, hats off, that post is not only beautifully pro-Arse, pro-Wenger and pro-footy, it is also fantastically well written and paced. Love it!
Here you go D98, “WOULD YOU BELIEVE IT”
Apologies D98, I’ve not even read your post yet, as I’ve just caught up with yesterdays comments.
Sterling work in the oic sets Chas…loved the baby ballers one.
This ‘exchange’ also tickled me…
RA – “(a) notice a button – ‘home’ – that I never knew existed,”
IllyB – “I don’t wish to overload you but try the ‘end’ button too. Magic will occur…”
I say tickled…its had me chuckling for nigh on 20 mins now…
Rasp….get Chas’s last video on the sidebar….thats an order.
Don’t make me break out of my padded cell and come looking for ya. I’m dangerous
In other news, I’ve signed the no public funds for the spuds petition, mainly as I have a vested interest in more money being spent on mental health.
Excellent views from our United guest. The fact fans of other teams are welcome here is just one amongst numerous things that make this site a pleasure to be involved with.
Nik, I admit it, I had an irrational dislike of your club for a long time, and that despite my girlfriend of in the 80s and early 90s being from a Whitefield family of dyed-in-the-wool Reds. I don’t admire everything about United (well, Nik, surely you’d be disappointed if this were a complete love-in!) but the age of the sugar daddy has taught me a considerable degree of respect for United and Ferguson. Yes, Fergie has spent a lot of money down the years, but that spending has been within the club’s resources. In fact, the Glazers’ theft of club resources by way of the leveraged buy-out and various means for extracting money mean that the fans are subsidising the owners, not the other way around.
As for Fergie, he’s not someone I’d want to spend any time with, his vengeful nature and megalomania suggests a pretty unpleasant person – e.g., withdrawing all the loanees from Preston when Fergie Jr was sacked, and then getting that despicable toad Pulis to do the same with the Stoke loanees; that really is disgusting behaviour and any football fan ought to have been offended at what Fergie did. But fair play, his record at both United and Aberdeen shows Fergie to have been a genius of a coach. The quality I most admire in him is his ability to learn from others and assimilate what they do to great effect. And our very own Wenger has been one of his greatest sources of inspiration.
Is Wenger perfect? No. Is he as good as Fergie? Yes and no – Wenger has never been able to retain the title and has not won the CL, both of which must be held against him in this calculation. And yet there are things Wenger has done that no other manager, Fergie included, could match. It’s not just a case of building sides with little by way of resources, it is the fact that from 2004 to 2010 he chose to stick with the club during a time of rebuilding, during which there would be no money available, and yet he still achieved so much in those years (even if no trophies were won). D98 has explained almost everything that is special about Wenger, and we all know the man’s faults (and I’m one of those who has criticised Wenger along with the Board, Gazidis and Laws for what happened this summer). But what Wenger has done for us since 2004 has, even more than The Invincibles etc, earned undying respect from me and many other Gooners.
Hi Dial Square
Love the bit: “sorry to be predantic” – superb!
By borrowing from another sport, I thought D98’s use of the term attacking quarterback communicated succinctly conveyed what was special about Cesc, a player who often sat behind the lines, creating the patterns of play and giving the team its shape.
As for the idea that there are only a few outfield positions in a football team, defender, midfielder (AM or DM) and forward, two words by way of rebuttal: wing-back.
What a quality site this is! Not only a cracking post that really embodies that feeling of relief and vindication that fans of wenger have been feeling since February but also a comments section to die for! Genius! Nite all
wow… 2nd to none.great post
Morning all just catching up on late night comments.
Good to see FiL posting again, and Carlito with some time to post 🙂
Confused by the Quarterback question as I have heard it used many times by pundits, Beckham for England whilst playing central in later years was called one. Gerard (for Pool) and Carrick when at Spuds often described that way too.
And in Carrick you have an example of why Fergies job has been slightly easier £18m for a 25 year old who has played 232 games for ManU before start of 2011/12 season. (£75k per appearance). A player approaching his prime when signed. That’s not to say Fergie has not also performed miracles with lesser players, take Wes Brown and John O’Shea if they’d been at any other club they would not have the medals they have, and they wouldn’t have been top of anyone’s shopping list.
Fergie has ruled with fear altho it seems he is mellowing, Wenger had always ruled with kindness. Different approaches and some would argue Fergies methods have achieved more. But this is where Fergie annoys me….he could have changed the face of English football, he had the likes of Beckham, Scholes, Cantona but surrounds them with enforcers, the likes of Pulis/Allardyce follow this model, but as they have less skill the enforcement is the dominant attribute which leads to injuries that we have seen. Beckham became a better player at Madrid than he ever was at United, the same is happening with Ronaldo. And I would say that Rooney would be a much more developed footballer had he learned under Wenger in these last few years. Maybe that’s why United are able to hold on to their best players.
I like Rooney but think he could have been so much better, have Barca ever come knocking for him? They should have done given where he was at when he joined ManU.
Chas 10:12 – “THAT SUMS IT ALL UP” 🙂
chas. In my top 3 goals of all time
1. Micky T.
2. Geoff Hurst “They think it’s all over”
3. TA: That sunny afternoon of celebration
thanks ….
Morning giE,
I am working on your post and I must admit I am rather confused, can you just check the the tables reflect the figures you intended please?
Raddy you have just hit on an idea for an interlull post.
Perhaps Chas could set an Arsenal based pic quiz for the real low of the interlull next week.
Bugger Rasp you are correct Image 1 is officially fubar!
AFC line should read 11 – 0 – 5 – 3
Image 2 AFC should read 71
Image 3 AFC should read 81.
Not at PC to redo can you cope? Sorry again.
No worries GiE, I will publish dandan’s post today, so you can take your time to make the changes.
Brilliant (debut?) post D98.
Superbly written.
Morning all….but can’t stop
Morning again,
New post ……….
Amazing write up, one of the best that i have read about arsene.
make your own brew…
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