Several weeks ago London (the blogger) sent in this short post giving his reaction to the call to get DD involved in some capacity with Arsenal again:-
Question: If you were the agent of any grade A player and were in the process of concluding a transfer would you finish it speedily or would you wait and see if the new Chelsea manager was interested in signing your player? Bear in mind that if it turns out that he is you would, of course, probably be able to add an extra thirty grand to your player’s weekly wages.
So, with this in mind, spare a thought for the constraints that Gazidis is working under.
The other thing that should be borne in mind is that this is not a situation that David Dein had to deal with when he was involved in signing Bergkamp. Although, what many people forget is that he did have to deal with these constraints just before he departed. He was the principle negotiator in the Ashley Cole deal; and for all you romantics who believe that with his return things would be back to the good old days when we used to sign players like DB10 you should remember that that turned out to be an embarrassing disaster.
Rasp’s response
It may be that DD would have fared no better than the current administration in procuring the players that many clamour for, but he is a highly respected figure in world football who was pivotal in the metamorphosis of the club under Arsène Wenger.
He helped his friend Danny Fiszman to get onto the Board. Fiszman subsequently became the main driving force behind the move to Ashburton Grove, although it is widely reported that Dein was against the project.
Dein’s football pedigree is impressive. He was on the board of the Football League Management Committee and subsequently achieved a place on the FA Council. He was also one of the major architects of the Premier League in 1992. He was the President of the G-14 group of European football clubs between October 2006 and May 2007 and has sat on various committees within FIFA and UEFA’s including UEFA’s Club Competition Committee and Executive Committee.
Let’s also not forget that he was responsible for bringing in Arsène Wenger. He remains a close friend and confidante to this day. In fact, he may be one of the few individuals in the club’s administration who can influence Arsène’s footballing decisions. Together they were an effective and balanced partnership……..
….and together they signed the likes of Patrick Vieira, Emmanuel Petit, Marc Overmars, Thierry Henry, Davor Suker, Robert Pires, Sol Campbell, Gilberto, Gael Clichy, Kolo Toure, Cesc Fabregas and Robin Van Persie – not a bad catalogue of players.
God only knows what Dein’s motivation was in selling his shares and then the ill advised association with Red and White Holdings, but it is also worth noting that he was thrown out because of the manner of his attempt to get a certain Stan Kroenke involved in Arsenal – and look where we are now!
All I know is that when Dein spoke you felt he could be trusted. His rapport extended from top to bottom at Arsenal. He had time for everyone from the tea lady to the players and most importantly he was respected by the Press. He communicated without the rehearsed sugar-coated spin we are expected to consume these days. At this time when our transfer dealings seem to be painful, protracted and often fruitless, a man like Dein could make the difference.
David Dein has already played a huge role in the creation of the modern Arsenal and I for one would welcome him back.
Arsenal News 24/7
arsenalarsenal.net 
Nice work fellas.
Ooo err, I will vote later. It is the mixed messages from the Board that confuse the issue for me.
Morning London, Rasp, 🙂
A different type of Post with an intriguing content. Interesting. Well done! 🙂
Now referring to your comment Rasp (9:06) in which you said that you and London were making a ‘joint offering, – is it legal? – and where do I get mine?
The contraints I was talking about are Roman Abramovich and his abilty to out bid us at every turn. Every players name Rasp mentions up there was signed between Bergkamp arriving and Cole leaving, which in my opionin backs my point up that Dein never had to work under the contraints that Gazidis now does, well apart from Ashley Cole………way to go with that one David.
Morning London, I agree that DD didn’t have to work under the constraints we face today. I just think that he was a people person, a football person and someone who worked well with AW. I don’t see Gazidis as even trying to have an input into the football side of things whereas Dein certainly did.
I’m afraid I find Gazidis’ particular slick brand of unadulterated PR very hard to swallow.
What have done since he left the club. Football wise we are rudderless at the mercy of commercial bland grey suited anonymous soul less money men.
I think the question should be rephased.What does Gazidis ever say that is an encouragement for fans. IMO he is a PR disaster.The board even thought of Karen brady..DD definitely took the negotiations away from Wenger so Wenger could deal with what he was employed to do, manage the team.Times have changed enormously isince we last won a trophy and as much as DD is a fan through and through I don’t think he would want the hassle anymore.
Hi again kelsey,
I’m sure Gazidis’ approach worked very well in the States, but I’m afraid it just doesn’t wash with me. He’s a politician, I want to hear from football people.
david dein is responsible for our recent drought. His son is now agent of many arsenal players and they are the ones apparently asking for transfers.
He is the real culprit, working behind the scene, to ensure arsenal never win anything. He wants to get back at the boards who kicked him out for millions. He now has that millions and now he wants a seat in board.
What?! Don’t believe me?? Then why the fcuk i should believe u?
Arsenal never signed any stars. The always make them. Writer is delusional about the names that arsenal signed. None of them were stars. They were just potential/wonderkids who needed proper grooming. Arsene did that and still doing so. But now we have chelsea and manc to deal with as the 1st writer explained.
Wake up morons!!! Nobody from outside gonna change arsenal and make it a winning machine,
I guess also knee jerk reaction from so called fans. What are the positives at this moment of time,I would like to hear your shout.I can see the direction the club wants to take and agree that negativity is always easier than being positive when things are on a down. I wouldn’t say the fans have been lied to, but you have to agree that we get mixed messages from the board and the manager, and that leads to frustration as we support the club.being critical does not mean one doesn’t support the club if one can give a clear non offence opinion.
James Hickey – my late father-in-law was James Hickey 🙂 The Hickeys are having a golf tournament in memory of him and his cousin, also James Hickey in Eire every August, you should attend 🙂
Karen Brady? Dodged a bullet there methinks.
I am going to find it very hard to formulate an opinion on this as I have no idea how the internal Arsenal machine works. Of course I take London’s points about the new super rich clubs, as well as Kelseys that DD certainly appeared to take the transfer pressure away from AW, however I have no idea how things operate between Arsene and Ivan.
Hiya Rasp – excellent topic, DD has been on my mind for sometime now. I have always thought him to be our Saviour, now I am not so sure. Still, I vote Yes, bring him back
but surely his son would be a better option then Gazidis. The image that it’s all Wengers fault is not true and even if the unthinkable did happen. Then I do not have great confidence in Gazidis in getting the right man or it being quicky either. The fact he had to go out to tour to talk abouttransfer targets shows the guy does not know what he is doing. David Gill works in the same kind of enviroment but he gets Fergie what he wants, when he wants and quickly .
Cheer up critic
The funny thing about today’s post is that I wasn’t expecting that there would be a place to vote. I had never thought about this before and was quite shocked at myself when I realised that given a choice I would vote for his return……….which I did.
Refering back to last night.When we started this blog under the guidance and hard work from Rasp and peaches kown one knew how we would fare.my written word isn’t great as i am dyslexic (sp) but what is working class in todays world .fottball was always originally a working class mans sport but times have changed.We didn’t know at AA that some of our excellent bloggers would be accountants and lawyers,better educated than myself and perhaps have a bigger vocabulary than I do.So what, it’s a blog and we should all be united in our love for Arsenal. I don’t hate Spurs or anyone else, i prefer to expand my energy on all things Arsenal, and what i see at the moment is either a manager who has lost it (quote to follow0 or a manager who is so loyal that he is taking the bullets for the Board.
Financial stability is what we hear all the time yet the club are prepared to let nasri dictate terms to them and run his contract down and leave for free when he could be sold now for 22 million(which I believe will still happen) is that the arsenal philosophy.
critic,
I wrote “together they signed the likes of Patrick Vieira, Emmanuel Petit, Marc Overmars, Thierry Henry, Davor Suker, Robert Pires, Sol Campbell, Gilberto, Gael Clichy, Kolo Toure, Cesc Fabregas and Robin Van Persie – not a bad catalogue of players” …. at no point did I say they were established stars.
Slow down, read the post, then respond and cut out the name calling.
London,
Do you ever get hurt in a fight with London? 🙂
“Nicklas Bendtner and Emmanuel Eboue] are both on the verge of a move but nothing has been concluded with anybody.
I don’t have any club in mind for Nicklas Bendtner because we are far from having done anything with anybody. I cannot give you any club because we have given him the permission to move.”
Does anyone actually understand this quote.It’s all double dutch to me. AW yesterday. That is not a type of comment one used to hear from him.
“Having read through various Spanish reports the new release clause for Mata which became applicable on 1/8/11 is only applicable to Spanish clubs. i would watch this space and hold on for a few days.
Ooooooh, I am glad I noticed that cuddley pink panther to the right.
Re cesc:
Wenger said: “Wenger added: “We have a responsibility towards our club and I have that responsibility to sell the players at a decent price. Or I take money away from my club. And that is not just to please one player.”
Well if you add in a years wages you have got your 40 million, but really the emphasis is yet again on financial stability.Are we a Bank or a progressive Football Club.
It sounds double Danish.
Kelsey,
What do you think is the relationship between AW and the Board in terms of transfer policy. Genuine question as I have no idea.
Great article, fair and balanced. For me I would take him back tomorrow, if he’d have us. I think he was treated pretty shabbily by the Arsenal board after years of service. I see him as a possible peacemaker between our two major share holders.
Don’t get me wrong, if DD did something, then it would normally suit him and Arsenal. He can hardly be described as ” selfless .”
I have been told a story by two separate sources that DD would send potential young players birthday cards, he would make a point of remembering parents names, he would stay in touch, enquiring about them on a regular basis. If Arsenal were then ready to take the player on, the other clubs would not stand a chance, as DD had shown that at Arsenal your child would not be just a number, that the club cared. This is what is supposed to made the difference when Fabregas signed.
He may find todays transfer market a bigger challenge, but I feel he would be up to it. He beats Gazidis on charm 50 to 1 !!!!!!!
Why was Gazidis at Arsenal in the first place? Anyone seriously think he can influence wenger like Dein did?
Our chairman said he didn’t want your kind here to kroenke and a year later he was on the board.
maybe they think all the other clubs will go bust and we will be the only one solvent.
It is always wise after the event is that we pay exhorbitant wages to players hoping they will develop into top profesionals and that is alwas a risk.it happens with all clubs but then when we make them a so called star they get greedy and want more and more money.Where would the Pl be today without the backers of United,City and Chelsea.it would be a lot fairer for sure,but we can’t turn the clock back and a balance has to be achieved otherwise we will plummet out of the top tier.Glad it’s not my job.All we can do is support the club for the time being.
I may vote for DD simply because, judging by the pic at the top, he comes with the brainbox that is Stephen Hawking.
This moron,
I can’t answer that but my various posts above show me quite clearly that something is going on behind closed doors.I think some players have lost respect for Wenger, Cesxc’s silence is deafening and we are 11 days away from kick off.
Before entering today’s debate, can I say my pennyworth about the debate in the early hours? Well, I am going to anyway — so close your eyes now. 🙂
Reading and re-reading the discussion stream, I was struck by the mismatch between the points being made and the counterpoints.
The debate was mainly between two “teams” — Herb (hi Herb – welcome back) and GN5 — versus — GIE and 26May.
The main issue seemed, on the face of it, to revolve around whether or not the ‘best’ fans, (and AA bloggers) were — the salt of the earth, working class, dungaree wearing, hob nailed boots shod (?) ticketless supporters or — suit wearing, educated, middle class, professional, eloquent, wealthy types.
I personally enjoy reading the comments and Posts of both GN5 and Herb precisely because they have a terrific grasp of the history of Arsenal, together with a wealth of experience supporting Arsenal over the years. [GN5 is also a delight with his jokes]. 🙂
On the other hand, I am very taken with the erudition, knowledge and eloquence both GIE and 26 bring in stating their views, and I find they are always open minded, if I argue the case. {even tho’ 26 is a lawyer}.
Unfortunately, for them, I simply just like them both. 🙂
But I think all that misses the point. Both ‘types’ of supporter and blogger have a place in the rich embroidery of the Arsenal fanbase, and long may it be so.
What then is the problem, and the solution, from the viewpoint of a visiting Yank?
I’m afraid it is simply a matter of age!
GN5 and Herb are of a certain age, whilst 26 and GIE belong to a different age group. That is it. That is the ‘problem’ neither is right – neither is wrong.
It has always been the case that fathers have liked doing things in a certain way — whereas the sons, when they reach maturity, want to do things in their own – different- way.
It is natural, it is normal, it will always be this way.
Nothing to see here; no big deal; let’s just move on! 🙂
Stan says.
DD was shafted by the board in the contract negotiations with Cole.DD and Cole shook hands on a deal and the board (DF) renigged.This was to emasculate DD.Once DF had the rest of the board on side DD was easy to get rid of.Go back to 2007 when DF wanted to become a tax exile because he foresaw that he could off load Arsenal at a huge tax free profit..DD complained that AW would have a financial straight jacket imposed upon him and tried to get an investor from outside.That gave DF the excuse to rid himself of DD.Once he and SK had made a deal ,Lady Nina and the Carrs were surplus to requirements.
If Kroenke could get Asimov shares he could buy out the rest of the shareholders.But as long as Asimov will not sell Kroenke can not invest in the team or take money out or sell the whole club.Therefore there is a stalemate at Arsenal .This will continue until either Kroenke or Usmanov succeeed in gaining control or the club is run into the ground.
starunited,
Gazidis’ job is not to influence AW’s footballing decisions, he runs the commercial side of the club – its just that DD’s role was much broader and he certainly did take a keen interest in the football side of things.
I wouldn’t fancy the trip to Wembley. Playing CL games at Wembley was a disaster as well. Dein has also lost clout in the football world as he was passed over for an important post last year. I voted don’t care. This summer is rapidly turing into all the other summers.
I don’t want to get too political but take it from me the sixties and seventies were the best time in my life.Most of Europe is going far right, we have a world recession which will lead to more and more civil unrest. Big Brother is watching you. Look at the scandal at the News of the World.Phone hacking, corrupt police, just to get a headline story and we are meant to live in a democratic world, well at least in certain countries.
The media have only escalated everything through modern technology,the internet, twitter and IMO players tweet and talk too much to the media which is then usually taken out of contact.
Football is a passion, a relief from every day stresses and used to be a level playing field to a certin extent.Footballers are the new breed of celebrities and people love reading anything they do, especially if it exposes some of them for what they really are.
I will end it there and hope our team however frugal the board are, give 100% effort and enjoyment this coming season.
I know most of you are much more positive than i am for this season and i thought long and hard about posting today as the majority n here are so pro wenger that one can’t be critical anymore, which never used to be the case.
All sites have a so called inner circle and not always easy to get involved but at least here we encourage new comers.Anyway various rants over.
RA,
I probably agree with you, but then being the obedient sort, I had my eyes shut, so then again I might not. I will never know.
Sorry, that Moron should have disappeared. He has been ammended.
The main reason United are where they are is because of the good work put in by the Edwardes and their board many years ago in monetising the United brand. That is to say, developing their marketing strategy and reaching out to and creating a global fan base in order to sell merchandise. In this area they have and continue to outstrip us hugely and it is this money that they use to buy top notch and top price players.
Dein in his infinite wisdom did nothing in this area beyond ridding the local area of badge and scarf sellers not affiliated to the club by changing the logo abd protecting branding rights. A fairly typical parochial approach from a man whose focus was pretty firmly on the short term. As evidenced by his vehement preference for moving the club to Wembley. This would have made us slaves to the FA who are so efficient that they spent £850 m on building a foootball ground where formerly there had only been a football ground. And as a result have been trying to scrape money together by ensuring as many other events and activities as possible are played there. Including American Football. Oh and did I mention that the last thing on their agenda was to ensure that the ground had a decent playing surface. Hence they would have squeezed every drop form Arsenal financially while at the same time providing us with a sub standard playing surface more suited to the Stoke’s and Blackburn’s of this world. Oh and we would all have had to fight our way to Wembley up to twice a week, weekend and midweek. Fine if you live in central London. How about those who live in Essex. Or Surrey. Or Kent. Or Hertfordshire with the only travel links via central London.
Exactly how the great man would have resolved these issues so that there werent only 30-40,000 rattling around in an 80,000 stadium for around half of the home games is beyond me. And before you say “well we did it for the seasons when we held CL games there”; yes we did. But a) that was a novelty and b) we were playing Fiorentina and Barcelona. Not Bolton and Sunderland.
Unfortunately, there are no silver bullets. Presenting the options as a binary choice makes for a good argument but doesnt deal with the reality. Dein did some things well. But also did some big things poorly and the view of his achievements and failures should be viewed thus.
Kelsey,
You are not alone (deep booming voice) 🙂
Morning Kelsey, 🙂
Great to see you in full flow again. You always talk sense and make interesting points!!
Back to the debate. In a way having thought it thru’ the question/vote is really a moot point, because whatever the rights or wrongs of what happened between DD and the rest of the board (and I for one do not know what went wrong) he is not coming back. His race is run.
What I would vote for, is a director who took the DD type role, with a specific responsibility for overseeing and managing the sale/purchase/contracts of our players.
I know some might say that is what Gazidis already does. But anyone who has been involved with larger corporate bodies will know, that Gazidis’s role of CEO (Chief Executive Officer) is to manage all the affairs of the company and he cannot adequately encompass the additional responsibilities of the “Transfer” Director.
Therefore, we need Gazidis to delegate the transfer responsibilities to another qualified footballing person, and not leave them all to Arsene. Arsene is the Coach — and he should coach the team!
Clockendrider,
Was it DD behing the binning of our club crest?
I have been hunting for the culprit and for that alone I would ban him from ever setting foot in the place again.
Very well presented comment ClockEndRider. I agree the Wembley debacle was a massive misjudgement.
DD, like Wenger and every other mortal makes mistakes. I think he was a good figurehead/spokesman.
That Moron,
Oh do stop. I am busting my ribs laughing at you and your hilarious quip.
Laughing at you!
Sulking, again, Rasp? 🙂
Let me ask you all on here how many of our present squad would be an automatic choice on the team sheet as it is at the moment of time assuming we had no injuries and that either Nasri or Fabregas left. Obviously if that happened one would assume at least one would be replaced.
My point is that we are talking about a team who could possibly win the title.
my list would have a few definites, many impact (don’t like the word) players, cover for first teamers as back up and then the new recruits for perhaps CC games.
Definites: RVP,Sagna,Vermaelen,Wilshere,Song (with a question mark)
impact or back up players :Walcott,Arshavin,Chamakh,Koscienly,Ramsey,Sczsech ny Rosicky..
Squad players yet to prove themselves long term djourou,Traore,Gibbs,fabianski or manone
new recruits:rio,frimpong,jenkinson,lansbury
out:Bendtner,Eboue,Almunia,Sqillaci
I might have left the odd one out and many will disagree with me,but with under two weeks until the season starts that is not a very strong squad defensively or in experience.
Who binned the badge?
MDI89,
Yep. Back when it was all the rage to spend money with “branding agencies” who were essentially graphic designers. I compartmentalise this along with a belief in astrology, handwriting analysis and copper bangles for rheumatism……
Clockendrider
Manchester United are almost 1 billion Euros in debt 💡
Once Sir Fur-on-Tongue leaves man United will fold like a pack of cards.
GnarleyGeorge,
Yes they are,. But that is as a result of financial engineering behind the Glaser takeover. Not poor commercial performance. Indeed the reason they are still trading is because the banks they have depended on have so much belief in the free cash flow they generate as a result of their commercial activities enabling them to service this debt comfortably. Don’t mistake debt for poor financial management or financial lossmaking.
Kelsey,
From pre-season, I would add Gervinho to the definite list, but agree with you about the defensive weaknesses. In my opinion, we will be nowhere near challenging for the as it stands.
Cannot wait for the first game though 🙂
“Don’t mistake debt for poor financial management or financial lossmaking”.
I call it living beyond their means. At some point in time, the creditors will call in the loans. & you can bet old SAF will be well and truely retired & sunning himself in the tropics when that happens.
Clockendrider,
That’s it then. I hate DD.
The new crest is horrible and epitomises everything I think is wrong about the game. In one move, we binned so much of our proud and hard fought history.
There is a very similar badge in Australia. The present badge is horrible. I’d love to have the art deco one.
Hi RA, not sulking at all, why would you think so?
Good Cornish God, GG,
Thing is about Utd. Yes they are 800 odd million quid in debt, but they are worth double that.
clockend rider. tha mancs have been bailed out by the quataris for £250m. The will be another arab club soon.
GnarleyGeorge,
Don’t hold your breath. While they can service the debt, they can carry on regardless. I can’t see what event is going to prevent them from continuing to generate cash and profit. Unless it’s a global event. In which case, we’re all phuqqed anyway….
And this is exactly the approach to debt management our board has taken. It is fairly standard business practice. The clubs who, on the other hand are generating debt as a result of lossmaking in day to day operations, which is most of them, have the problem as they are the ones who are living beyond their means.
I forgor gervinho, like him can play anywhere in attack a sort of mini drogba.
Finally cesc.We have a no win situation with him.he is club captain, one of the greates honours a footballer can get.
Chain of eventss.misses the last game at Fulham to watch the grand prix, having already been taunted by the barca players to wear the shirt after the world cup win,gives a half heared applause when RVP scored on saturday and then walks out at half time.
Why doesn’t he just hand in a transfer request.great talent, great servant,but i have lost all respect for him and it appears Wenger lets him do what he likes. It’s all not befitting of a club like ours and we get ridiculed on a daily basis by the media with justification i am afraid.
Hi Micky, 🙂
My understanding is that Arsenal did not (amazingly) have the copyright for the old crest.
This enabled a number of businesses to sell produce with that crest on it without paying Arsenal any royalties.
The new crest was properly registered and Arsenal can now charge for its commercial use, or refuse to allow merchandise to be sold with it on. (like Walt Disney’s Mickey Mouse produce).
I don’t know who authorised the new crest, but it was a proper commercial decision. The question should be – “who was the pillock who forgot to register the original, much better looking crest, and was he sacked?” 🙂
Kelsey,
Why give a fig what the media say? Can’t say I hold a profession which engages in hacking into the phones of still missing young women thus causing the family untolled grief in particularly high regard. Lest we forget.
Experience, Rasp.
When I greet someone it is usual to receive a polite greeting back, unless they have the hump about something.
No big deal.
gm
Once the Murdochs pull out of tapland, the only people with money in GB will be arabs 😛
Where have all the chest beating curry eaters gone? At least I was around to face the music 😦
Red Arse,
Good point. But then a commercial director worth his salt would have used this as a base on which to build a global brand. As United did with stunning results. Rather than simply sit back and bask in the reflected glory of the team success of the time as activity then would have led to cash now rather than leaving it 10-15 years later for the next iincumbents to pick up. That is how far behind we are. Hence the need for an expensive commercial team plucked from some of the global marketing heavyweights.
Hindsight is always 20-20. But then managing directors are paid to have foresight and I’m not sure Dein’s half a bar a year look like money well spent in this light.
😳 different blog
RA, I missed your greeting – apologies. I am super-busy this morning and only checking in fleetingly.
RA,
I have heard that, but don’t swallow it as an excuse for the Mickey Mouse thing we have now.
Work to be done. Bye for now.
CER
We agree to disagree on the Manure matter. Only time will tell I spose.
GG,
Believe me when I say I hope your vision comes to pass. The only thing that would make me happier would be if it happened to “the other mob” first.
It feels dirty saying anything not abusive about the mancs
Who, Spuds?
Good morning all!
Bienvenue to all new newcomers and indeed regulars alike.
DD’s skill-set is based around him being passionate about football, he’s a football person, its in his blood, he is knowledgeable and able to discuss football matters in the simplest terms through to complicated processes at Football Association level.
Above all, he is a gentleman and he was a credit to Arsenal FC.
However, his time has gone. Football isn’t that matey, I’ll scratch your back and give you 5 million for your favourite player and I’ll sort you out a deal later on kind of business anymore.
It has become more mercenary and clubs operate in a bigger, more judgemental spotlight than ever before. With the internet boom, the difficulties in keeping agents and selling clubs quiet and honest (i’ll touch on this shortly) has changed the football landscape and made player transfers more difficult.
Gazidis’ worldwide reputation is excellent, to suggest that DD has a better reputation is folly. Gazidis is largely credited with the success of the formulative years of the MLS and the commercial rights agreements that have funded so much grass-roots football in USA.
Negotiating with Clubs has changed. With the internet there is no longer a gentlemans agreement where clubs do not talk to other clubs whilst you are negotiating with them, the tea lady or a steward or a player will mutter something on the internet and all of a sudden everyone knows who you are negotiating with, which brings competitive bids and forces the price up beyond economical sense.
I use the example of Mata. Allegedly we are interested and have lodged bids. Allegedly Spurs, hearing that we had a bid accepted also put a bid in to match/better ours.
How did Spurs hear about it? Because its all over the net and the papers.
Noone is honest in football anymore, the internet has made it too easy to slip and let rivals battle for transfers. It’s a sellers market.
I feel for Gazidis and Wenger, there is so much pressure from the fanbase to sign players, but its not an easy process and to suggest otherwise is folly. ManYoo have signed players, but they have paid over the odds to get them in fast. Is Ashley Young worth 17 million? Not likely!!
WG
Anyway, finally, can anyone tell me if the Joey Barton rumours going to Arsenal have legs
GG,
Yep. Just thinking about them makes me feel sullied.
…..makes me feel soiled.
Can’t see it happening. The man is a nutter. Just because someone has made him read a book and listen to The Smiths, doesn’t change the fundamental fact that if it weren’t for football he’d be selling crack in whathever Croxteth khazi he grew up in.
Arent we supposed to be weeding out the underperformers and narcissists during this close season?
@GnarleyGeorge, ClockEndRider
I’d take Barton on, I think he is a bit of a headcase, but I’d have him instead of Song in my midfield 3 every day of the week.
On a free transfer he has to be worth a punt, he’s not a prima-donna and he won’t be the first outspoken player we’ve signed, look at RvP, Arshavin, Nasri to name but a few.
WG
WG
So can I assume that it could happen then, Barton to Arsenal or is it just more journos using phones the wrong way.
……& I don’t mean like Ashley 😆
WG,
Good point, well made.
“We are working very hard in the transfer window “. http://www.footballtransfertavern.com/2011/08/premiership /exclusive-snap-of-arsene-negotiating-har?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TransferTavern+%28The+Transfer+Tavern+Home+Page%29
“In Arsene we rust.”
@GnarleyGeorge
I think its a rumour that has got some legs to it. I think it will largely depend on how ready Arsene thinks Frimpong is. I have no doubt that Arsene rates Barton because he has said so in the past. A free transfer enables us to compete for his wages and we’d offer a shot at champions league football.
As a fan, I’d be very happy if he signed, I do think he has the ability to be a top player for us.
WG
@Spectrum
Oh how I’ve missed you! You do realise that satire is for comedy purposes. You should laugh at such things. Not use it as a reason to be negative.
Remember, its much nicer to smile and be happy than be depressed about a situation you can do cock-all about.
WG.
WG
Barton playing Barca, would be like a fox in a hen house. It would be carnage 😆
Night Night all
Whoops. Correct link this time ? http://www.footballtransfertavern.com/2011/08/premiership/exclusive-snap-of-arsene-negotiating-har?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TransferTavern+%28The+Transfer+Tavern+Home+Page%29
“In Arsene we rust.”
@GnarleyGeorge
I have the vision in my head and I’m loving it. As much as I admire their football they’re nobheads and I’d love to see Barton kicking Xavi up in the air…
Saying that though they get so much protection from ref’s that Barton would get sent off for a tap.
WG
Morning all.
I am not sure how I feel about Dein returning to the club.
It is true that under his tenure we signed players. But apart from DB10 how many were done without the wishes of AW? I’d it possible that DD signed DB10 as a carrot for AW when the time came to lose Rioch.
As London also says the situation was different then, those players signed were highly thought of in world football and we could pay the money to get them.
Whilst there were some gems there were also failures or not as succesful, Reyes, Jeffers the list is possibly as long.
Good discussion starter post. Well done fellas.
In short do I believe Wenger and scouts have stopped identifying the gems, or do I believe that the Board is financially preventing the club from signing them.
In recent years, Nasri, TV5, Kozzer and now Gervinho would suggest we are still identifying talent, but that there is a shortage of funds preventing us signing as many as AW would like.
Would Dein create harmony or divide further?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/14240765.stm
Great video on the changes in the Matchday Experience.
@GiE
Nice analysis GiE, I agree with you, our scouting network and player identification seems to be pretty good (when we don’t panic buy).
I also agree that there seems to be a constraint, be it financial or just a pure case of personnel on purchasing top potential/talent.
WG
I would not like David Dein back at Arsenal as what l read last night I hear David Dein son in Cesc agent and Henry agent and he is Samir adviser .What is more worrying is RVP has him as his agent ! This is BAD NEWS FOR ARSENAL !!!!!!
GiE – at long last!! I was waiting to read your take on things
moron.
@Evonne
Should I be offended that you weren’t similarly on the edge of your seat for my entry? 😛
WG
GM,
Have you said that just to keep everyone on their toes and let them feel a bit self concious? I think its brilliant.
Quiety appear in the middle of a debate and lob in a one word insult and run 🙂
Spectrum – that image has been taken more than a little out of context it comes from Arseblogs twitter feed, and it is aimed at the club not Arsene, his tweet reads:
“An image which, i believe, sums up Arsenal’s summer so far – ”
Not what is said on the FootballTransferTavern, the only words thing from Arseblog is the image itself, how FTT have used it is much like a paper would, after all a picture can tell a thousand stories it just depends which one you want to read.
Kelsey – you raise an interesting question with the automatic names on the first team sheet.
We have gone from one of the strongest squads at the start of last season, to one of apparent weakness, especially if we are to lose Nasri and Cesc on top of the already departed Clichy. Three big players gone with Denilson out on loan the potential loss of NikB and Eboue all weaken the squad further. This is why, in my opinion, the over criticism of three perfectly adequate squad players is so debilitating. They have all done us a job when needed, now we are asking Frimpong, Afobe and Lansbury to step in if needed, all with far less experience at the top level.
I personally want to see the progression of these youngsters and I’m well aware that with our squad it is difficult for them to get chances, but it feels to me that there is a baby being thrown out with the bath water after the end of the last season all to satisfy the fans that are demanding stellar signings and the removal of players viewed as “not good enough” for the Arsenal.
I agree with WG here that the fanbase is demanding the signings, my worry is at what cost to our overall squad. It certainly feels that financial counterbalancing is required for every deal to be done, which I worry is leaving us short in areas where we were once well covered.
Evonne – my take is as uninformed as the next man (unless the next man is closely connected to the club), its certainly a difficult time for us fans at the moment
When Dein was at the club we won 13 trophies since he has gone not a sniff.That tells you everything you need to know
Sorry Wigan, but asking Evonne if she was on the edge of her seat for your entry would appear highly inappropriate.
As GM would say, Coat.
Wigan – I am!!! It is just that GiE’s positive attitude is contagious and I constantly need cheering up, that’s all
Micky and GM – the ‘Moron’ comment appeared after mine, so I assume that I am the mentally challenged party.
Gooner Ted,
there is a difference between corelation and causation. are you trying to attribute all our success in that period to Dein? Are you equally happy to attribute our recent drought to his lack of activity while in situ?
Can’t someone ban him? He has nothing to say but a chlidish punchline that was boring when the originator said it about 3 years ago.
Evonne. I would never insult you.
I’m off to do some shopping see you all later.
Rasp – I have just thought of another reason I would like DD back – his presence was highly visible at the Club, he took some of the heat off the manager. In recent years Wenger has been much more exposed, often dealing with hostile press and fans.
I noted a few weeks ago that Daniel Levy made a statement that Luka Modric is not for sale, it wasn’t Arry who made the announcement, it was Levy. I think it would carry more weight and send stronger signals out, if Dein made certain announcement instead of Arsene.
GM – I know, only pulling your leg xx
@Gooner Ted.
You’re right, we should wheel David Dein out onto the pitch instead of Fabregas.
Dein did nothing to affect the on-pitch day-to-day performance of the squad. All he did was public relations, Player negotiations and be the conduit through which the board communicated with Arsene. Now there is no such conduit.
WG
GM, hear hear! 🙂
Hi WG, Hi RA 😛 , just back for a few moments.
Gazidis got brought into the discussion but only featured in the post in terms of his PR performance. Apart from the PR, the two men fulfill quite different functions.
I wouldn’t sack Gazidis and bring back Dein. In all honesty I have no idea how good Gazidis is at his job, I just don’t like his ‘line’ when it comes to PR – having a gossip section on Arse.com – WTF?
I would happily have Dein back in some ‘spokesman/ambassador -type function
Rasp,
Why would the club pay someone to be a “spokesman/ambassador”? Or would Dein do it for free, as he “only has the best interests of Arsenal at heart”? I’m afraid this looks like sentiment and nothing more. If all he has to add is that he can give pet journalists and other ambulance chasers a few titbits, is there really anything to be gained for Arsenal? Or does it keep Dein in the limelight. Given that he has singularly failed to find a platform at the FA or in European football without the gravitas afforded by a role at Arsenal Football Club?
Thanks CER,
Obviously I haven’t listed all the functions where DD could be of service, but I think taking some of the weight off AW’s shoulders would be good and also making ‘official’ his interraction with AW would be an asset.
With DD in front of the cameras we had a certain gravitas that portrayed the club as a big player in world football, with Gazidis we have Stan’s man who is all about business and little about football.
Rasp,
I’m still struggling with the “why”?
Taking weight off AW’s shoulders – How do we know it’s there in the first place? Are we all taking as read that Wenger is chief cook and bottle washer for all transfer activity? Is this based on knowledge or what has become to be accepted knowledge through the expedient of repetition on the net from people who have no connection with the club other than being fans or even media types with an agenda?
Why would “making official his interaction with AW” be an asset?
Why would putting Dein in front of a camera, other than showing off what is, truly, a lovely tan do for Arsenal?
Not being rude but I just think we would need to understand the benefit Arsenal would get. All I can see is the benefit Dein would get.
Why would putting Dein in front of a camera, other than showing off what is, truly, a lovely tan do for Arsenal?
Love the bit about the tan
CER,
Maybe you are more comfortable with the image of Arsenal in the public eye than I am.
I never want to criticise our club, but I cannot remember in the last 20 years a time when we were vewed as being so weak. We battle to keep our best players every season. We struggle to sell players who are surplus to requirement. We make it very clear (not with the spoken or written word necessarily) that we do not intend to spend large amounts of money on players.
This is not a professional image that is going to get sponsors falling over themselves to invest in us, it will not make us a mouthwatering prospect to any players we may be after and it has failed to an extent to get a significant number of season ticket holders to renew this year.
@ Rasp
I do feel you do Gazidis a disservice by not noting his work at the MLS, Promoting the Mexican Football Federation and the CONCACAF Gold Cup.
It is my belief that Gazidis is well respected, I don’t think he or Arsenal are lacking in any one area in particular, I just think the negativity surrounding the club at the moment is fuelling our need to find reason for the under-performance of the whole club.
Gazidis took on a rudderless ship, Edelman was a financial genius with getting the stadium built, but he knew nothing about football and the football commercial revenue had all but died out during his tenure.
I think we misunderstand Gazidis’s role at Arsenal. He is the Chief Exec, he needs to have a business head because Arsenal PLC is his responsibility.
Yes he might assist in player negotiations, but isn’t that Ken Friar’s job for the most part?
WG
WG,
Do you blame the supporters for the ‘negativity surrounding the club’ ?
Surely the Board, the staff, Gazidis and AW all have to take some responsibilty.
I’m happy for Gazidis to handle the business stuff – I believe that is where his strengths lie. But we are a football club and it is the football and therefore the supporters (not all, but enough not to be ignored) who are suffering.
The club should not promise what it can’t deliver because the end result is damaging to Arsenal.
There is no sign at this moment of any new ‘post Emirates’ era that will herald us being able to maintain our position in the PL and CL.
WG,
Hear hear.
Rasp,
To your point, I am in no way concerned by the image of Arsenal in the public eye. If people choose to believe anything written by a profession quite so discredited then that is up to them. Personally, if I want to find out what is going on, I don’t look at Sky or the written press as, as has recently been shown, they march to a drum which I am, at best, doubtful has anything to do with the provision of agenda free information.
I can understand that people are frustrated that, in a world with so much aprent transparency, don’t get the inside scoop on what is going on at the club. At the same time, I believe the reason we get so much bad press is because we refuse to kowtow in the first place to these purveyors of trash. The truth is, we can live without them, but they can’t live without us. I’m all for making the mountain come to Mohammed in this case.
And as for the issue about the appeal or otherwise of Arsenal to sponsors, I would just say look at the alacrity with which Nike exercised thier option to keep on providing the Arsenal kit. We also had a record deal with Emirates for ground sponsorship which enabled us to build the new stadium which will be a huge cash generator and is what is currently enabling us to stay in the top 4. We have also signed a deal with Indesit recently and from memory the stadium is alsways full of pitch sponsorship. Personally I think the commercioal directors of major companies will want to be attached to Arsenal for as long as Arsenal acts with integrity as a club. That is our brand. It has taken 125 years to build up and won’t disappear because a few inrenet trolls and third rate newspaper scribblers have had their noses put out of joint.
@ Rasp
In part, but most of my frustration is pointed firmly at the media.
Tell me what is wrong at Arsenal that is actual definite fact.
We are a top four club at the moment (pretty good in a league of 20). We compete in all of the top club-level competitions with the best in the world. Without financial doping from multi-billionaire owners. We are self sufficient and Arsenal still is one of the most successful teams in the premier league era.
Given that success in the top levels of competition is not guaranteed, hence it being a competition, where is all this negativity coming from?
Frustration of being so near, but yet so far? Or is it the constant negativity feeding negativity from the media?
I think fan’s have a right to want success, but there is no right to demand it. To demand that we should win the league is to do other teams in the premier league a disservice.
Personally I’ve been around long enough to realise it’s a long league and pre-season is too early to be negative. All it does it breed further negativity.
WG
CER,
I’m not going to be drawn into playing devil’s advocate and posing the contra-argument to your points as I support Arsenal come what may.
Our image as a club that is ambitious and competitive is poor. We are admired for our financial prudence but that does not sell shirts or put bums on seats. A tour of the far east will earn the club money but sooner or later, better directed investment in players will be necessary to keep the sponsors happy and to help enlist new supporters.
WG,
I refer you to the first sentence of my response to CER.
I would prefer us to be proactive rather than reactive. We have a problem with the defence and with the ability of the squad to maintain consistency throughout a full season – let’s sort it before we pay a high price.
@ RASP
Fair point, I didn’t see that line before I put my post up. I was just putting my tuppence worth into the debate. I certainly didn’t mean to put you in a place where you feel uncomfortable……(I save that for the mrs! :P)
I certainly agree with you on the pro-active front, as in my post earlier, I don’t think it’s easy to sign players any more due to the constant, 24/7 monitoring and leaks to the internet.
However, I’m a patient guy and I believe Gazidis, PHW and Arsene when they say they are working on transfers. There will be hell to pay from the fans if nothing else happens in this window. Whilst I will be relaxed about it, I can imagine the furore right now.
WG
I would maintain that AFC are both ambitious and competitive with the caveat that we have to work within the restrictions of our finances.
To say that we are not competitive can only mean that being competitive equals winning trophies. We have had CL football for the past 15 consecutive seasons and have enjoyed watching some spell binding football.
“does not put bums on seats”?
Last season we had 1,696,885 bums on seats second only to Man U who had 2,129,907 third were Man C with 1,243, 475. Using the BBC’s study into EPL pricing that would mean that based on lowest cost for a ticket our 2010/11 income would have been 74.663 million.
Not at all bad for a club that are neither ambitious nor competitive and cannot put bums on seats……….hmm it looks like 1.7 million people may not share that opinion.
@GunnerN5
Totally agree with you, though I’d probably wonder about those seating figures for us – they always report a full-house even when its not.
WG
WG:
The figures are always based on“ sold“seats versus occupied seats and after-all it`s sold seats that count.
G5,
I totally agree with you when looked at like that. I was discussing this very thing with a very old Arsenal chum on Sunday, and we were discussing the true fan base. Although games were a sell out last season, we were competitive in all competitions until the end ‘ish. Now, what happens were we to slip out of the top four, or be effectiely out of all comps by Christmas? My money says crowds down to about 35,000. In shor, I think we are on a knife edge. We have many fickle fans. Nature of the modern beast sadly.
Whoops WG and CER, 🙂
Steady on boys!
Rasp is voicing his concern about his perception of Arsenal’s media image, but it seems that he is being questioned on other unrelated matters as if he is an Oracle, rather than just giving an opinion.
For what it is worth, I too think the perception of Arsenal as a top rank club is being distorted by the reaction of many footballing people, including some of our own supporters, as a result of a number of matters, not least this nonsense with Nasri and Cesc.
I am on record as saying, that Arsenal the proud club should become more proactive and lead events rather being/looking rather slow in reacting to them.
For example, rather than being grittily determined to hang on to Nasri, and dancing to his tune, come what may, we should say to him, publicly – if you don’t want to play for us then you can eff off!
With Cesc, it should be much the same — tell your DNA soulmates if they want you the price is £xm, by 15th August, otherwise you will have to see out your contract.
Now you may not agree with me on that – but my goodness it would show we are in control, and not lamely waiting while Nasri jerks us about, or Cesc fanny’s about like some love lorn loon!
Rasp is right. Rather than AW having to field questions about them which brings his managerial authority into question, there should be a senior Arsenal director responsible for doing so who is a media expert.
Arsene, for all his strengths is not that man, he is not a PR guru. He continually walks into loaded questions and is then torn apart by the media and fans alike for what he has said.
I’m with you Rasp. 🙂 {on this, at least}
By the way. Ken friar has retired, but has returned on a temporary short-term basis to be the acting Managing Director. So he is not the right man for the propsed PR job either.
MD89:
I’ve often used the Toronto Maple Leafs hockey team as an example of a team that is supported by a combination of both rabid fans and corporations. They have won squat since 1967 yet they are “sold“ out for every single home game.
I cannot buy into the assumption that dropping out of the top four would cause us to lose 25,000 fans. The loyalty factor will always be there plus corporations will want to schmooze their customers.
As a footnote in the 1960`s when we won zip all we averaged 33, 764 per game.
Hi GN5, 🙂
Well said.
It is often said that we are the best run football club in the world, and not reliant on a sugar daddy.
I believe over the next few years, just like any well run club, our focussed attention will turn much more to the US and Asian commercial markets, having sorted out the stadium.
This will generate even more cash from these sources and related new sponsorship deals related to these markets, which in turn I have absolutely no doubt will be re-invested into the club’s major assets — players!!
Be patient, guys, it’s all good!
RA,
we are in agreement, that’s what i basically said earlier.
Oops, sorry delete ‘ related to these markets’ and substitute “specific to these markets’, but you are all clued up and had already divined that, hadn’t you? 🙂
Hi Kelsey,
I always agree with you sir! 🙂
I agree with rasp about our image and now i hear there are seperate photo shoots of the squad with and without cesc and/or Sanmir.
@ WG
i agree Barton would be a good signing (if he keeps his head in check, and thats a big IF!). He had a very good season last year and would add a bit of steel to the team.
I would want DD back but in saying that the game has changed, corporations need slick well trained PR types like gaz. I don’t know the inner workings of the club so i won’t comment, but i just don’t see what gaz has done? i know we are tied into deals with nike and emirates but what are him and his high salary earners doing behind the scenes. Does he keep wegner in check? it doesn’t appear so. Why hasn’t keown or another defensive coach been brought in?We could sign vidic and i don’t think it would help us without the proper defensive coaching. There are too many questions left unanswered, and have been left unanswered for long periods.
@ RA
It’s alright I’m not jumping on Rasp 🙂
I agree that we should be more pro-active and indeed much less naive.
We have shown stunning naivety in the past with Flamini, Nasri all winding down their contracts to our dismay. This needs to be resolved permanently by selling Nasri, I believe this is the only way to achieve a bit of pride and even then it will be tainted by the media as a “forced transfer”.
I also agree with Cesc, if they want him, pay the transfer fee or go away, but with the way transfers are completed in public and via the sports pages I don’t see that happening very soon unfortunately. We need to set a deadline and stick to it. Cesc must realise we have done everything reasonable to allow him a transfer away.
So in short/long
I totally agree with Rasper/Yourself, but I do have my own tuppence worth to throw in about Gazidis. I think he is an asset to the club.
I didnt know about Ken Friar, I thought he was still involved with transfers….oopsie 🙂
WG
GN5,
I hope you are right about the fans not being that fickle, but I have my doubts.
My dad told me that in the 70’s (?) the crowds at Highbury sometimes fell to as few as 8,000 for some games.
I’m sure some whizz will confirm that and perhaps the years concerned.
Good post.
Good discussion.
Afternoon all, interesting debate.
I have sympathy with both sides of this argument.
Whilst i think that there has been a media agenda for a while against us I also think that we could do some things better.
I said some time back that I would follow RA’s advice and just tell the want away players that they can eff off. But this is only if we are to be believed about all the stories in the media, which after all none of us know are true or not.
If you want away you do it publicly like Joey Barton and get released on a free transfer….now Samir Nasri does not appear to have done this, Cesc despite not playing in pre season games has not been vocal or begging with the club in public to let him go. I applaud that for both of them.
But if the club can’t make a definite announcement about their futures how does any PR man stop the negative coverage of the issue?
We have always been a club that tries to keep discipline, transfers, contract negotiations in house, that has always frustrated the media.
I take you back to this famous team talk.
Oh History repeating itself
RA,
Personally I watch each one of Arsene`s pre game news conferences and find them to be very informative, with the notable exception of transfers in and out – which is understandable given AFC`s stance on secrecy.
Having AW conduct the pre game conference, to me, adds a lot of creditability to what is being stated. There was a time when all we heard were fans complaining that the club were hiding information from them, that still may be the case but at least the media have an opportunity each week to ask open ended questions.
So I don`t feel that our image is tarnished by the club I believe it`s tarnished by the media`s negative bias towards everything Arsenal – and that will never change.
RA @ 3.00
Very well said, it should always be a privelege to play for the mighty gunners. I don’t agree with the mentality that cesc should be sold to barca because its the right thing to do. Leave before you hit your prime, treat arsenal and its fans like this after arsene made you (and as a captain), he should be put on the open market and sold to the likes of real or inter. Not everyone gets to play for their boyhood club, and the way hes going about it is not on. The worse thing of all though is he gets away with it. That is not setting a good example for younger players in the squad.
RA;
Average attendance during the 70`s was 35, 024 with the lowest being 26,945 in 1976.
Red Arse,
Thanks for your support, it is better that another explains your stance than risking looking over sensitive by explaining yourself.
I am aware that CER, WG and GN5 are all expressing valid points and I am not disagreeing with most of it. In my eyes, Gazidis may well be earning us fortunes behind the scenes and negotiating some surprise acquisitions, but somehow he is failing to instill confidence in the supporters and that is reflected in the media.
Rocky, why so brief? I’d like to know where you stand?
RA – I completely agree with you that players should never blackmail the Club. However, our mutual acquintance London keeps on stressing that the whole saga with Nasri has been scripted by AW. I think he is right and therefore it is too early to tell Samir to eff off 🙂
The image of a classy Club is extremely important to me and last week’s booing tarnished that reputation somehow. I would not want anything else to damage the proud heritage we enjoy.
WG,
We are friends, and you are certainly not argumentative, unlike me! 🙂
I accept you were not intending to hassle the Rasper, but I felt his initial comment was being widened by questioning which was putting him in the position of defending one or two things he had not really said.
Anyway– I was not only defending the boss — I was defending my position as the official ‘AA Devil’s Advocate’!
Friar may still be involved with negotiating the transfers, but if so, it is only on a short-term basis, as I understand his position.
I think Gazidis is a slick operator and well able to do his job as CEO, as far as I can see, and the impression is that he was head hunted because of his excellence in business generally.
He is a good businessman, but sometimes he does the snake oil salesman bit, too well! 🙂
@ Rasp
My apologies if I came across a bit brusque, I was just going off on a tangent and never meant to make you feel under attack.
@ RA
You’re a gent, I knew you’d understand. 🙂
WG
Rasp
I think DD appeared to add something that we currently lack, so I voted yes.
But I’m acutely aware that I have no idea how things really operate at Arsenal, either then or now.
I originally thought it had been staged but something has come to my notice that makes me change my mind.
With cesc it is like a marriage on the rocks:
I love you but I can’t live with you.
You can only defend him so far.Why did he leave the ground at half time on Saturday , the grand prix was the next day ? 🙂
Thanks Rocky – are you OK?
On a slightly different note – have you guys noticed that there were no rumours about the Club following departures of DD and lady Nina, or from Usmanov’s camp? You would think that some bitterness would result in nasty info being leaked to the venomous press? But there was none, zilch. So perhaps there is nothing to leak, nothing secretive, or unsavoury going on especially about buying and selling players? We all seem to think that ‘something’ is going on that we don’t know about, but perhaps there isn’t?
We seem to be agreeing to disagree on somethings I wrote.
GN5, my dad was never wrong! 🙂
Must be the gate counters figures that are rubbish in that case. 🙂
Sundry Peeps:
I was trying to give an example of how Arsenal could be seen to be more proactive, and using the situation with Nasri and Cesc as examples.
OK, given I have oft times stated that I, along with 99.9% of my fellow fans (kelsey excepted 🙂 do not know the full story of anything that happens within the administration of Arsenal — I was hoping not to keep repeating the caveat mantra that — ‘I do not know what has transpired between the club and the players concerned’ — however, the club hierarchy does, and a good PR guy would manage the careful dissemination of the relevant info, ensuring Arsenal are seen to be leading the story, and not simply reacting to the Press rumours emanating from Citeh and Spain.
I could have used other examples — but that was all they were — examples to illustrate a point about media presentation.
Rasper you are welcome. 🙂
Oz, good to see you and your comments are sound as usual! 🙂
Kelsey – yep, I didn’t like Cesc leaving at half time. Nigel Winterburn was on Talk Shite radio this morning and he was surprised at that too. He said that at his days players who were rested, had to rest properly, away from the grounds, so he would understand if Cesc was not there at all. But to leave at half time was odd
It was actually Kelsey who said he thought it was scripted but I did agree with him. Looking back it was fairly easy for the board to predict that we might lose Cesc this summer and in the still likely event of that happening what better way to ease the pain and loss we will all feel than to announce shortly after that Nasri the most talented French midfielder on the planet has decided to stay.
All this still rings loud and true to me.
Fine thanks Rasp. Busy. You know how it is.
Evonne, sorry to disagree, but Lady Nina Nana, gave a detailed interview to a national newspaper where she dished the dirt.
Can’t be bothered going into it, but among other things she claimed to have been browbeaten by Fizman because she was a woman – still is – 🙂 and the simmering tensions between many of the board members blah, blah, and what a rat Dein was.
She then recanted afterwards claiming to have been misquoted (yawn, yawn) and said Dein was a good guy, blah de blah.
At this moment of time nearly 90% would want Dein back or does that mean they voted for him as they didn’t like the other options. Interesting.
GN5,
You should know better than to argue with my late dad. 🙂
The lowest recorded attendance at Highbury;
– 4,554 (v. Leeds United, in the First Division, 5 May 1966).
I think we also played Wet Ham in front of 8,000 in the 70’s, but I have gone beyond caring! 🙂
Bartley has signed a new contract.
WG
Being as peaches is otherwise engaged, I have to be the site nag 😕
The cupboard is bare as far as posts go. Today’s effort was cobbled together from a few thoughts, so if anyone has an idea that can be expanded into a discussion for tomorrow’s post I’d be very grateful.
RA – true, she did, ie Lady Nina Nana made comments about the Board’s treatment of her, but nothing about the running of the Club. Mind you, it is possible that she didn’t know anything about the decision making processes, after all a woman’s place is in the kitchen… or ironing in my case
RA — 1966 is not the 70’s?
We did indeed play in front of some very small crowds of that there can be no argument and the Leeds game was the lowest of all time, in North London.
The worst decade was the 80’s with and average of 29,349 and the lowest year was 1986 with only 23,824 – now they were sad times..
three reasons for that all time low.
we were playing shite
it was freezing in may
liverpool were live on TV which was a rarity in those days.
I went to the Doctor and said I’m experiencing so much angst about The Arsenal that I can`t even sleep at night.
He said sleep on the edge of the bed, you`ll soon drop off.
@Rasp, I’ll try to knock something up for Friday (Not much use I know)..
I’ve been mental busy at work and interviewing for a new job, but I’ve got it now so hopefully things will settle down.
WG
Blimey Kesley
Do you actually remember all those details about the low-attendance game or did you look ’em up?
If it’s the former I am seriously impressed.
My wife must have Egyptian blood, every time I want to have sex with her she says “Tut, Tut“.
I remember going to Arsenal game in the 80’s I think against Chelsea where a surge of violence came steaming down Gillespie Road.
My Dad had gone to the Box Office to get Family Enclosure seats, whilst my Mum stood with me and my brother. She quickly pushed us behind a hot dog van and we were kept out of any danger. Dark days indeed.
That and one other occasion of being chased up St Thomas’s Road by Spurs fans whilst a group of us sang “we beat the scum” were the only two occasions I witnessed trouble, guess I was lucky.
The more I think of Spurs – the less I think of Spurs.
GN5,
I did prefix the decade with a suffixed (?).
Anyway, I was using the low crowds of those years to explain my doubts about your comment that attendances would not be affected if Arsenal fell out of the top echelons.
Could be I am right. There’s a thing!
RL, I was there and i think raddy and dandan as well.
Time for an iced cold beer.
A lot of low attendence figures in the mid seventies to mid eighties was because of extreme violence, and as a few of you know i was subjected to that myself and am still affected by it to this day though there were a few other issues for me at the same period.
Gn5
With all the respect in the world, I think you are the eldest statesman here, if that is true could you give us an idea of how much it used to cost to get into Highbury?
Me too GIE,
Walking home after a game, wrapped in my red and white scarf, I watched, petrified, while a gang of about 30 yelling, swearing Arsenal thugs appeared, as if out of nowhere, caught and beat some Aston Villa fans, as they were walking peacefully to the tube station. The gang continued up the road punching and kicking any unfortunate who got in their way.
Have to say it shook my self belief, and I hated the false impression they were giving of my club.
Sickening! 😦
Kelsey
“I was there and i think raddy and dandan as well.” It probably wouldn’t take too long to name everyone else who was there too 🙂
That pre-dates my Arsenal-going by about 6 years.
It’s easy to forget what a big deal it was to have live footy on the TV back in those days.
RL
yes but we were real supporters and for a period in the early sixties as a young teenager in the shadows of a Spurs double team.
hard to comprehend if you weren’t around and of course the game was far far different.
RA;
Back then the crowds used to be more middle to lower class and folks had to be very careful about how they spent their pennies. I know the both of my Grandad`s used to have to earn “extra“ money to convince my Grandma`s that they weren`t using housekeeping money to watch the Arsenal. It was always a hot topic.
I just feel that today`s audience is very different and that the majority of them will not go short at home because they are going to games.
Just an opinion based on feelings with no factual back up.
i still have somewhere a programme from 1947 given to me by my uncle when we played charlton and I think it was just one sheet of paper and the cost one old penny.if i can find it i will put it up.
London,
As a kid all it cost me was either scuffed knees or torn trousers.
I have a ticket in front of me, last season at Highbury, 1st April 2006 Arsenal v Villa, price £44.50
Kelsey
I’m glad I was too young (2 years old!) to have known anything about the Spuds double-winning team.
But there were plenty of gloomy times during the ’70s, ’80s and ’90s too, interspersed with moments of joy and triumph.
Taking the long view is what helps keep me sanguine about our recent travails. You can’t always be at the top.
Back in the ’60s and ’70s, what proportion of the crowd were season ticket holders?
I never had one (’70s onwards), but was always able to get in at the turnstiles.
Kelsey , the oldest programme I have is from Xmas day 1948, Arsenal vs Derby County it was paper and consisted of 6 pages. today all I have left is a photo copy of pages 1, 4 , 5 and 6.
The team that day was Swindon,Barnes,L.Smith,MaCaulay,L,Compton,Mercer,Roper, Logie,Rooke,Lewis, McPherson
It was my pride and joy but unfortunately the years took there toll.
I`m particularly upset about losing pages 2 and 3 as there was an article by manager Tom Whittaker – I remember in one part he stated that transfer prices were becoming ridiculous and that to buy a good player you had to pay a 1,000 pounds.
Gn5
“Scuffed knees and torn trousers”
Great answer.
GN5,
Referring to your comments yesterday, I am sure you are right that the relative costs for getting into the ground, then and now, as a proportion of a ‘working man’s’ salary has increased out of all proportion.
I seem to recall that my dad (he was the fount of all knowledge, in my youth 🙂 ) was that entry to the North Bank in the 60’s was about 5/6d (does that look right in English money?) about 27p (let’s say 30p) in ‘new’ money.
I cannot find ‘proper’ statistics for the era but I believe an average working man’s salary at that time (’60s) was approximately £19 per week (roughly £1,000 p.a.)
Today, the cost of a seat might be between £35 and £100 per game, with an average working man’s salary of (say) £20,000 p.a.
Therefore the cost of a seat in the 60s as a percentage of the average weekly wage was approximately 2%.
The cost of a seat in the 2010s (at £100 per seat) as a percentage of the weekly wage is about 26%, or (at £35 per seat) 9%.
Look, I know my data is a bit ‘iffy’ but this does bear out the fact that it was undoubtedly difficult to justify the cost of entry to a game in the ’60s; but your belief that today’s costs are much more difficult for the ‘average’ wage earner to justify the outlay to attend a match at the Emirates seems to be proved.
There are obviously a lot of variables/assumptions in the above calculation, but it does indicate (roughly) that the increase in the cost of going to the Emirates is becoming exorbitant for the ‘average’ working man, even without factoring in the cost of travel, booze and food.
Suits rule, OK? 🙂
An 87-88 North Bank Season was £180 if that is of any interest.
Evening all.
Redders
Your 6.24 demonstrates just one way in which the game has moved away from the realm of ordinary mortals.
Even in the 70s and 80s top players, although on really good wages, were probably only earning what a successful professional like a Barrister or a senior police officer were earning. In other words their income was within the bounds of ‘normal’ life (albeit at the upper end).
When their careers ended it was typical for many to open a pub or somesuch (if they didn’t go into coaching) – but they certainly didn’t have enough dosh to mean they would never have to work again.
Now it’s only greedy bankers who can earn as much as the top footballers, who inhabit the world of the super rich.
I think it’s a shame that they subsequently become so out of touch with ordinary fans (how can they not, with all their millions and minions?) but it’s the market that dictates what they can earn. They provide entertainment in the same way as pop singers and film actors, who are also rewarded in millions.
But there was a time when they travelled to games on the same bus as the fans…
I remember paying £3.50 as a kid in late 80’s early 90’s, and £7 when i left Junior Gunners 😦
Watch that video from BBC i linked too earlier, interestingly more people in suits at the beginning of the clip than the end 😉
We’ve signed a Centre Back!!!!!
By my calcs in the 80’s the cheapest season was about one week of a working man’s envelope, its now about two weeks.
GiE,
What????
Okay before you all hunt furiously around the net i have to admit he’s already with the club and has signed an extension….Kyle Bartley
Bastardo
GiE
So cruel!
GIE,
The Bartley signing info is not only cruel, but late!
First announced on AA at 4:11 by Wigan Gooner!!
You naughty boy. 🙂
In 69./70 a west stand upper tier season ticket bang on the half way line was £78.00 which included 6 coupons for cup games, and of course the first division was bigger.Unreserved lower tier seats in the East Stand were five old shillings.
RA, I think the average wage might have been lower in the sixties but then early and late sixties wouldn’t be comparable.
Kelsey,
That’s perfect, it ties into my very rough calculations, which anyway was only a quick calculation to discover a broad brush trend of wages and ticket prices over the years. Thanks. 🙂
Anyway guys and gals — tomorrow! 🙂 (been a lot more pleasant blogging here today).
I’m not going to be around tomorrow and Rasp is going to be really busy, can anyone just come up with a short post to spark a debate for the day?
spark a debate….are you sure we want that we’re still picking toys up after Monday 😀
I’m not here you didn’t see me…..three in five days from one author would be overkill anyway I’m sure RA was around here earlier, maybe you could talk to Oz Gunner he always complains he has no one to speak to at night on here so he could write a post while he is waiting for one of us to reply. 😉
Good to see you got on here early today Oz, I like your contributions always good to read.
Peaches
Look in drafts and see what you think.
It’s not about me wearing hobnail boots is it London 🙂
It’s the stilettos darling.
It’s great London. we’ll use it tomorrow if that’s ok and can I say now as I won’t get on until later tomorrow that I feel the same as you about him and how exciting the prospect is ……. 🙂
A picky would be useful.
Evening all. Sorry I couldn’t join earlier, work is a tad bonkers right now.
Interesting post, especially being a synthesis of Rasp’s and London’s contrasting views, and in including a vote.
I find myself somewhere between Micky, London and Clockendrider in all this: it can’t be denied that Dein contributed a lot to our club, and from the outside it looks like we probably have missed him in transfer and contract dealings. But as Clockendrider put it, DD’s views on the stadium would have been a complete, club-ruining disaster. DD’s penchant for politics and machinations is also double-edged: whatever we think of the various people who’ve been on the Board and amongst the major shareholders over the last 10 years or so, one thing that’s united them is their ultimate rejection of DD (Bracewell-Smith, Fiszman, Edelman, Kroenke, Usmanov, PHW). Calming waters isn’t one of DD’s strong points, division follows him.
But yes, if he could be brought back on a tight lead and a specific remit, that would be good. But I don’t trust him enough beyond that.
However, it’s even less likely than Barton joining.
Jury’s still out on Gazidis for me. It’s just not clear what he contributes.
Micky
Sorry, I prefer the new badge to the old one! That old one was too fussy and badly designed. Re history, the badge has been changed several times over the years, so I don’t see the most recent change as representing a break with our heritage.
RA/GN5
Re attendances in those very sad early to mid 1980s, which were my teenage North Bank years (£1.10 a pop), I remember one attendance being as low as 17,000 or thereabouts. But I also remember raucous games against Liverpool and Spurs, when 60,000 were shoe-horned in. Thems was happier days, the usual games being a pretty grim affair.
Football was infected by violence and was also deeply unfashionable, the pitches were heavier and the game less skilful, all of which I think contributed to the lower numbers. As discussed ages ago here, it all began to change in the late 80s with changes in the music scene. Then there was Italia 1990.
Re comparative costs, I used to fund my footy actives by doing a paper round; would a teenager now be able to earn £40/£50 a week to fund tickets by doing a similar job (not many paper boys and girls around these days)? Sounds very unlikely. Bottom line: teenagers can only go if their parents pay, so the game is becoming a more exclusive affair. Very unhealthy and unfair. That said, why are ticket prices so high? Answer, to fund the salaries of these greedy players.
OK London, pics inserted, thanks for keeping the ball rolling…..
Hi GiE, I’m with you on the new badge. I think it has a classy modern simplicity. On the subject of badges, Liverpool’s is dreadful and as over complicated as the original Arsenal badge many admire.
Think I’ve just been confused with a lawyer, eugh. Only kidding 😉
The badge, well as 26 points out it’s changed lots, people complained about this seasons one even though a very similar badge featured on the programmes of 1986 as we saw recently. And is definitely historically documented before that.
Is it true that football became more popular after 1990? I had never really considered it as I was always infatuated with the game.
Oh and a JG would have to find £22.50 a game, so probably is doable if they live near the ground.
I only know that as I logged on to see if I could get tickets for Liverpool home, there was availability in Family Enclosure and Upper Behind Goal Clock End but at £71 for those I decided it was too much for a crap view and being behind the atmosphere. That’s the problem of red membership not enough value seats left when we get to buy. How long does it take to progress to Silver?
Hi Exile: Well, I don’t have any stats to hand, but it’s definitely my impression that football acquired a new respectability in 1990, with New Order’s “World in Motion” adding a sense of cool that hadn’t been there before.
Can’t help on your membership queries though, apols.
In the CL, Rubin Kazan, Twente, Odense, FC Zurich and Benfica all went through tonight. According to the wiki entry, Benfica join the group of seeds, so we would be drawn against one of Udinese, Rubin Kazan, Twente, Odense and FC Zurich. Any of the last three would suit, wouldn’t they?
Surely the real watershed was the creation of the EPL and the infusion of Sky money?
Rocky, no disagreement from me. But there was still a very significant difference comparing the late 80s into Italia 90 and the dismal years of hooliganism, European bans etc. I’d even say the changed mood around the game was one of the reasons Sky may have looked at football as offering such great commercial opportunities.
Good point 26.
The repercussions of Hillsborough, Heysel and Bradford and the move to all seater stadia, partitioning of fans and so on can’t be underestimated.
There may well be an element of chicken and egg about the sky money and the improvement of grounds.
When was Nick Hornby’s book published? I seem to remember
a lot being written at the time about how footy had become fashionable all of a sudden.
“Fever Pitch” was early 90s I think. Or perhaps a little later. A fantastic development, to be able to read something that set out our experiences.
OK, that’s it for me, night night.
Nite 26
The Doctor has a stethoscope up to a mans chest.
The man asks, “Doc. how do I stand?
The doc says that`s what puzzles me as well!
Years ago I took an acting course in Hollywood and Farah Fawcett was in the next dressing room.
I found a little hole in the wall but I didn`t mind –
I let her look………………
I bet on a great horse yesterday.
It took seven horses to beat him…………….
Morning all.
Interesting discussion yesterday.
I’m usually of the mind that you should never go back because, with changed circumstances you get changed results.
I’d probably vote ‘no’, but having said that, would be very happy if he returned and had a positive effect. 🙂
Cesc to train at Members’ day? I seem to remember someone saying they would be attending. It would be great to get a first hand account.
Morning Chas,
I cannot make up my mind how I feel about the whole Cesc saga. Only guessing, but he must be feeling that Barca don’t want him that badly which must hurt. Then again I only want players 100% behing the cause. Yesterday I was listening to someone talking about Tevez and despite his moaning (wherever he is) when he crosses the line he gives his all. I also have the fear that should he go, we simply don’t have/won’t get, an a similar quality replacement to play in that role (for me Nasri is not the man for the job).
Morning Micky and Chas – very true about Tevez giving his 100%
About the new crest:
‘A well-placed source has told Arsenalinsider that the 15 laurel leaves to the left side of the crest reflect the design detail on the reverse of the six pence pieces paid by 15 men to establish the club – the laurel leaves also represent strength.
The 15 oak leaves to the right of the crest give a nod to the founders who, as you probably know, would meet in the Royal Oak pub. Underneath the crest is one of the first recorded mottos related to armament and battle – ‘Forward”
Evonne morning,
Interesting stuff behind the design of our nasty crest. Nothing can persuade me that there is anything nice about any of the commercialised rubbish. I mean check out the shop. Fine if you’re ten and want something plastic.
Mind you, the gist of the “forward” thing is in line with my call for “thrust”. Enter The Gerv Happy days.
Check out the history of the Crest on wiki or the clubs website and you will see the first badge which had three cannons (pointing up) surrounded by the oak leaves things.
It’s also quite stark how many designs there have been over the years.
Chas had a picture with the special edition for Denilson, you Forward he doesn’t do
I don’t like it, too elaborate. I like it simple
I like my crest best
GM,
Works for me too.
Thinking about Tevez, could it happen that City end up with “I’m only here for the money Adebeyor”, “I hate the City of Manchester Balotelli” as well as “I wanna go home Tevez”.
That also works for me!
Morning all,
New post ……
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