Everybody understands and wants to see competition for places.
Two world class players for every position should surely be the pursuit of every top club.
This is hardly a revelation, there is nothing new about wanting two world class players for every position but just like ideal communism it is a good idea in theory the problem being it simply does not work in practice.
Many clubs have tried to achieve this utopian dream including Chelsea in their free spending hay day. I remember Mourinho saying in a televised interview how important it was for him to achieve this goal for the club – that’s to say two world class players for every position not ideal communism. Lol.
Mourinho failed just like every other manager who has since been and gone at Chelsea. The reason being, of course, is that good players are not prepared to sit on the bench watching their short career evaporate in front of their eyes.
Players want to play.
The idea that the two world class players for every position hasn’t crossed Wenger’s mind is daft to put it mildly, it obviously has and I am sure he is well aware that it doesn’t work: evidence confirms that if you stifle the progress of a talented player he will want to leave.
As romantic as having healthy competition is to us the fans the reality is that it is a very delicate balancing act. One wrong move and you have a disgruntled dressing room at best and anarchy at worst.
When a manager is considering buying a player for a particular position he must consider the effect it will have on the incumbent of that position. If the new comer is better, then the incumbent will naturally fear for his place.
If Arsenal bought Shay Given, for example, who has at least eight good years left in him, do you think that Szczesny would just quietly move to the bench and wait for his turn? You might say he should stay and fight for his place but this is school playground football politics. Szczesny would quickly realise that in order to improve he needs to be playing first team football in a top class league – in short; he would leave at the first opportunity.
If you don’t rate Given, think Petr Cezch or any other experienced keeper who at the moment would be regarded as an automatic first team goalkeeper, the point remains the same – there are consequences to signing new players that must be considered.
The very same situation applies to Djourou, if he is relegated to forth choice he will want to leave and this is the reason I go on and on about the consequences of signing new players.
Someone is bound to say: why should we worry about the incumbent if the incoming player is better and will therefore improve the squad? Any improvement to the squad will be heartily welcomed by me but if the debate is to transcend the school playground wish list then the issue of the incumbent must be understood and discussed.
Many people have expressed a desire to see a new winger; if this hypothetical player were to be better than Walcott then it is reasonable to assume that he would become a fans favourite and in turn Theo would almost certainly spend more and more time on the bench the result being that before long he would want to leave.
Theo should fight for his place — well it doesn’t work like that just look at Bendtner if you want evidence. Of course, I cannot be certain that Nikki wants to leave but is there anyone out there who believes he doesn’t due to the lack of first team opportunities?
There was an interesting little game being played on here a couple of days ago in which people were asked to put forward the two top players on their wish list who they would like to see arrive. One of the names that came up was Chiellini, I asked: do you think Song would be sold if he were to arrive? Some said no which baffled me as the idea that Song would accept playing second fiddle DM in the same way as Eboue plays second fiddle to Sagna seemed unrealistic. In this scenario Song would play equally as few games as Eboue which is not something I would envisage Song accepting and as a consequence there is no doubt in my mind that he would leave.
Herb answered my question as to the consequences to Song, after the hypothetical arrival of Chiellini, in this way.
“As for Song, I’ve never been a fan. I’d love to see Arsenal go back to 4-4-2, it is a more direct and attacking philosophy. It would render Song redundant (unless he was used as a CB), but I don’t rate him good enough to be here anyway, so I wouldn’t mind him being sold.”
Now that is what I call an honest answer, what do you think?
Written by London
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Hi London, 🙂
A very good and interesting Post which is particularly apt given the clamour for new signings, and the possible impact on existing players.
What is often overlooked too is that the 25 man squad rules are now firmly in play, and although the age/youth of our existing players last year meant we did not have a problem, this year it is different.
Tempus fugit (time flies) and for some reason all our players are now 1 year older than they were last year. This means that, inevitably, some who were home grown, under 21 players last year, and could be included in the unlimited under 21 group, are now home grown 22 year old players this year and have to be included in the ‘senior’ 25 man squad or disposed of. Oh, oh!
This has led to the departure of Randall and Cruise (for slightly differing reasons), and is likely to mean others will leave too as and when new signings, if any, arrive in order to keep within the 25 man squad rules, and in each successive year this exodus is likely to increase.
A poorly thought thru’ consequence of UEFA meddling.
Morning all
Taxing decisions for AW.
In football utopia I think we should have enough players that we can use if we need to shuffle the pack when key players have injuries. Two or Three experienced players that can be dropped into the side to do a job efficiently.
This season if we’ve needed to use Nasri in the Cesc role for example we’ve had Rosicky to put on the wing and we all know how that didn’t really work out.
When Barcelona were without their first choice centre-backs for the CL final they used Mascherano as one.
I’m sure it’s just as difficult to buy back-up players as it is to find new hot-shots but not having a back-up for Song worries me more than any other position.
Morning RA
I forgot about the 25 man rule – so in reality we have to sell and buy like for like age wise?
London. Fine post and really good to see you expound your views in more detail.
I am not sure I agree with all you write. Quality throughout the squad is essential, we have squad players who are not good enough and need to be replaced.
One cannot argue with your point about having 2 World class players in all positions but we should aim for the best we can have.
The players personal ambitions should not be a consideration – they are handsomely paid. Some players will want away, especially the younger players but this has always been the case. The improvement of the team though prudent purchasing is tantamount, not the players feelings.
Wilshere played over 50 games last season and the evidence AW gave to the England management was that he had been struggling for the last 8 games. Had we had a good enough (and fit!) replacement JW would surely have been rested.
Your point about wingers: I believe we need a left winger to replace/augment Arshavin. We have tried Vela, Chamakh, Bendtner, Nasri and even Diaby in this position – we could use another speedster like Theo. I would buy Young, if available.
I am a Song fan but we could use another big DM, if only for squad rotation.
good post but one oint walcott was brought as a striker and he plays wing ,so how will he go to the bench he should be started as a striker same for nik b hes a striker played as a winger..plus there are so many games to play we can do with two dm so there will be no excuse about injuries….
London,
Excellent post. I do not believe you need world class players in every position, let alone as back up. My feelings are that at present we only have two, maybe three, of this calibre and yet I believe we only need two more to be competitive at every level. The season is mighty long, and with the inevitable injuries and ACN, there will always be opportunities. We definately need a stronger 1st 15 and therefore two incoming automatic starters would not put anyone on the bench for long, particularly given our fairly elastic or fluid positional approach to the game.
eh? Chiellini is a centre-back. Don’t understand why it would have any impact on Song?
Agree with the sentiment of the article though. Personally, I’d settle for one good left-back rather than 2 world-class ones…
Chiellini is cb/lb so I dont see how his purchase will affect song.
Hi London,
Nice post, it’s a good read.
I’m not sure I agree at all with the idea of Chiellini being a DM. He’s a centre-back and he’s not that quick.
With 4-4-2 it is possible to have a defensive midfielder and a more attack minded central mid, ala Arsenal of 2004 when we had Gilberto and Vieira in the central positions and Gilberto sat to allow Vieira to do his work.
Good players with the right attitude will always fight for their place up to a point. Bendtner’s victim personality frustrates me, because he thinks he is amazing he obviously doesn’t apply himself enough in training to compete with the other players in his position.
Hence why he got stuck out wide. If you don’t fight for what you want then it’s rare life gifts it to you.
WG
Great post London….my definition of a world class player has always been the following
‘A Player who does things every week even though the whole world knows he is going to do it, but are unable to stop him’
On that basis I dont think we need 2 for every position, but we do need two players or replacements who are fit for purpose.
For example, In my opinion Robin Van Persie is verging on World Class, everyone knows about his left foot, but teams are still unable to keep him from using it and he is now scoring with his right foot and head also. However, at present I do not believe we have another striker at the club that provides the same intensity, agression or potent goal threat.
I do agree about the playground politics though
Cheillini is a CB and allways has and will be.. Songs position would be under no threat what so ever. And noone plays with two left footed CB so we can rule him out.
OMG, finally a post from London!!! I was just about to go out, but I have to read it, wow
Interesting read.
I agree with the sentiment about world class players sitting on the bench and getting unhappy, but there are reasonable ways of having 2 quality options for certain positions – our problem is the onus on youth means we cannot adhere to the normal formula – a world class, mature player, with a top quality young prospect on the bench. This option is out for us I feel, due to the amount of quality young players we have.
We could however go down the route of an experienced player here and there to augment the young players. Scott Parker for example could cover the 3 midfield positions in theory, and judging by our injury record, he would get plenty of match time.
We could also buy 1 or 2 players who can cover more than one position.
Personally though, Im not sure we need the radical change that some are crying out for – we were only missing some bottle/belief/attitude towards the end of the season. This is the most important thing to address in my opinion, and we cant solve it by throwing buckets of money at it.
We need a change in attitude and a winning mentality. This could possibly be achieved with just 1 or 2 correct signings combined with our squad maturing over the Summer.
BR – I am sorry I didn’t join you in the media bushing yesterday. But this does not mean that you do not agree with you, I do, you are spot on and a very good point made
London a very good sensible and enjoyable read, thanks for that’
Big Raddy:
“The players personal ambitions should not be a consideration – they are handsomely paid. Some players will want away, especially the younger players but this has always been the case. The improvement of the team though prudent purchasing is tantamount, not the players feelings.”
If you truly believe the above: why should anyone get upset when a players like Cesc, Nasri or even LJ have ambitions elsewhere and believes his going will strengthen his chance of winning and therefor asks to leave?
We as fans demand loyalty but your statement says, we do not expect to be loyal in return and fair enough this year many fans have proved that in spades.
Personally I believe players ambitions are paramount if you do not want to be the best and believe you should be a starter you never will be, if my son was replaced in the first team by a new arrival and relegated to a non starting bench warmer, I would have him out of there so fast at season end, his feet wouldn’t touch. A footballer who is noy playing is not a footballer.
Of course we will need to change players occasionally but continuity is also very important, when a team jells it succeeds, changing just one player at the wrong time can upset the balance of the team disastrously
Excellent!
In fact Szczesny was talking transfer just before Fabianski’s injury. He desperately wanted to play or to leave.
Song is one of my favourites in the current team, I would miss his calming infuence.
That’s a very, very good point you made about consequences of bringing in new players.
On the topic of Chelsea – how many careers they very nearly destroyed by making guys like Damian Duff r SWP sit on the bench? Not to mention how much Abramovitch lost on such buying such players
Thanks London
If RVP is “verging on world class” then there really aren’t many world class players around. Do the catalans have 22 “world class” players? I doubt it. Maybe 11 excellent players and 11 good players who can do a job is enough. Look at all the rubbish players who have winners medals. Intersting post London. Nasri has spoken so I feel better about him now BTW.
Food for thought, London, thanks.
The accepted Arsenal blogosphere wisdom seems to be that with the addition of 2 or 3 experienced heads last season we would have won the league by 10 points. A view so simplistic, it’s laughable.
It’s fun to speculate which players would be welcome additions to the playing staff, but when bloggers start to believe their own Championship Manager aspirations, I despair.
Chas
That has been the view every year I’ve been rading about Arsenal on the internet. I love the comments like “mext year we need a WC CB, a WC DM, a WC GK and a 30 goal a year striker and we’ll win the league.
Haha, GM.
The 30 goal a year striker comment always gets me too.
Another absurdity is when bloggers actually believe they could do a better job at managing a Premiership football team than the present incumbent or ‘scout’ replacement players that are better than the current crop using youtube etc.
Nice post! Is it just me or does our current formation not suit most of our players? I would like to see us revert to a 4 4 1 1 or a 4 4 2 with proper wide players.
Has the window opened? CARL Jenkinson has signed apparently (one for the youth team)
@GoonerMichael
I don’t think Arsenal were that far away this year. There were some daft results down to certain personnel doing daft things.
The reason I make this conclusion is this – Professional’s don’t repeat the same daft mistakes, they learn from them. If they can’t then they get sold.
Arsene isn’t a fool and he can see what we need.
I am happy in the knowledge that Arsene is still in charge and is able to fix our squad. I trust in his purchases. In that respect, looking at last season I think Koscielny will become a really, really good player. Squillaci still has more to offer and I look forward to who Arsene will reinforce our squad with. Oddly, I look forward to the departures of Denilson and Bendtner who I feel have both under-performed this year and their squad positions can be filled with better quality.
WG
We do have a lot of ‘dead wood’ to get rid of….vela, rosicky, diaby, bendtner, almunia, and even chamakh. Our problem is that we have too many players who aren’t consistent enough or are often played out of position. Had wenger rectified this situation earlier, we wouldn’t be facing the prospect of a mass exodus this summer.
GM, no-one seems to have conclusive info regarding the transfer window.
Many have quoted the 9th of June because of this…..
http://www.thefa.com/TheFA/NewsAndFeatures/2010/transfer-window-060510
But this was for 2010!
Haven’t some players been signed already?
@ Wigan Gooner; squillaci? Really???!!!!
Nice post London, cheers matey.
Chas, the European summer transfer window can last no longer than 12 weeks ending on 31 August (or the next working day after that if 31 August falls on a weekend). 9 June 2011 is 12 weeks from 31 August 2011, as 9 June 2010 was from 31 August 2010, hence the dates being the same.
The domestic transfer window opened the day after the end of the season, so purely English transfers can already happen.
Ah, thanks, 5 squared plus one.
Any idea when the arbitrary 12 weeks came from?
* where
Hi London, is tenacity your middle name? Fine post, in which you express your views very well, as always.
Regarding having two world class players for every position, this is of course nonsense at a club like Arsenal, and with this you are unnecessarily polarising the argument. We need within our squad at least two good(enough) players for each of the 11 position to cover for injuries, suspensions, and fatigue (players like Djourou, Song, Sagna and Jack were overused during the winter months which had a detrimental effect on their Spring performances), but they do not need to be all world stars. Some players can play in more than one position, and as a result, we do not need 24 good-to-great players – let alone world stars – but more like 16-18.
However, the main point in your post is about what happens to incumbent-to-a-position players, if and when we buy an additional player. You are right in saying there is a risk an incumbent might want to leave when we buy a new quality player this season. However, this is a risk we should be prepared to take at a top club like Arsenal. Some players will only accept to be first choice players, and if they cannot get this from Arsene they will want to leave. We then have to decide whether we let them or not, taking into account the risk of the player’s disgruntlement / impact on the rest of the squad.
However, I genuinely believe the majority will fight hard for their position and will find they get plenty of opportunity to play for Arsenal anyway (as was the case last season), even when they might become not the automatic first choice. Some players will also reluctantly accept that they are not an automatic first choice player within a top club like Arsenal (at a particular moment in time, as this can change again), and would prefer this to being a first choice player at a lesser team.
The key top-club principles of sufficient quality cover in all positions, some healthy competition for those positions whilst managing expectations of individual players (something Wenger is very good at), and occasional rotation of players, should not be compromised by the fear of the possibility of an individual player handing in a transfer request. That would just be irresponsible.
@Chas: The 12 weeks is just the period stipulated in FIFA’s Regulations. (I should have called it the international transfer window, not the European transfer window, since FIFA is responsible for it.) There are ongoing attempts to align transfer windows but the fact that there are so many different football seasons in different countries makes that very, very difficult to achieve. The fact that we start our season in early August is problematic, since it means there is still a good chunk of the window to run when our league kicks off. But such is life.
Carl Jenkinson has been confirmed as transferred to Arsenal by the player and his former Chief Exec from Charlton Athletic.
From what I’ve heard about him he’s a great talent, not a world beater yet, but a great talent nonetheless.
WG
And also now by Arsenal.com..
Has anyone else noticed that the transfer-linked section of the site has not been re-used this year…how glad are we about that?
WG
Hi London,
Great to read your words of wisdom in a headline post again. I understand the point you are making and I think your projection of the effect on current squad players being pushed down the pecking order is true for some individuals.
To offer the counter argument, and taking Djourou as an example: he may feel that he needs to go elsewhere to achieve regular first team football, but he is unlikley to get that in a club that plays in the CL and competes for the prem every year. In other words, yes players that can’t be first choice for Arsenal can get regular football but it is only likely to be at a far lower level than they have aspired to – which shows the most ambition, to fight for your place at a top club or get more regular pitch time amongst inferior players and not on the european stage?
It’s about time Arsenal started behaving like a big club – not like a feeder club for the big clubs. I am optimistic that we will make a £20m signing this summer (Benzema?) and send out the message that players should want to join Arsenal, not that we are struggling to hold onto our players.
That’s the spirit Rasp (last paragraph)!
Hi Chas, 26, 🙂
There is a difference between ‘signing’ a player and ‘registering’ him.
The first is a contractual agreement between the clubs and the player, and the permitted period for that commenced immediately after the season finished.
The registration of the player with the FA can be done in the 12 week period commencing (for the EPL) on the 1st June; ending 31st August.
For some reason the ‘international’ Registration commences on the 1st July, as I understand it.
Verry gud post
alot offen these playeers is porky rubish,sez I
London,
Your post is well thought out and coming during the transfer window is also very timely.
I believe that having two top class players for each position is utopian. Even with Chelsea’s money it was only a short term solution and has proven not to be sustainable over the long term.
At Arsenal I’ve always been concerned about injuries to our first string as our back up solutions have been left wanting and has been a big part of our failure to win competitions.
We all having differing opinions on our team, mine being that we lack heart, but we can all agree that we are in desperate need of 2/3 top drawer additions to round the team off. If we get the right players then we will have more depth and be in a stronger position to bring home a trophy or two.
BR:
I have to disagree with your assertion that players personal ambitions should not be a consideration – as they are highly paid.
It’s a different world from the 70’s 80’s and 90’s today’s players exhibit minimum loyality to their club’s and given that they are highly paid they will do as they want and not as a club decides.
They are well aware that all they have to do is squeek loud enough about not being selected or sitting on the bench and their wishes will be granted.
A major part of managers job is people management and the best teams have managers who excell in this skill, keeping all levels of players happy is essential to both success and harmony.
RA, quite right, contracts and registration are different things.
Rasp, agree with you 100% re the need to behave like a big club now, we can and we need to do precisely that. In different ways, the recent comments of Walcott and Nasri testify to that fact.
DD. I take your point but ….. come the end of the season and your son is still in the bench. because there is a player who is outperforming him in the team. You decide to take him away into a team where he will play.
In my opinion this does absolutely nothing for your son, in fact the opposite. It teaches him that when faced with difficulty and challenges, then he should duck them and move on. I know you would not want that of him but I hope you see my point.
Furthermore, it enhances the “Me” generation which is doing so much damage to the world.
In Denmark they are called “”Curling Kids” which is a great expression. In the sport (?) of Curling there are two players (?) who have brushes which sweep away any obstruction allowing a smooth ride for the stone.
I think he should stay and work hard, improve, and earn his place.
Shafted by the Mancs again, eh? Smalling rejected us in favour of them, now apparently Phil Jones, after talking with Wenger last night, is about to do the same. But hey, we’ve signed yet another promising youngster, so we’re all set!
GN5. You are right that the job of the manager is to ensure harmony within the camp and an unhappy player does no squad any good. But with a 25 man squad there will always be unhappy players who know they would get first team action almost anywhere outside the top 10 teams in the world. But where is the ambition if they move? Where is the drive?
They are handsomely compensated and if Mr Wenger decides that another player is needed in their position, then accept it or leave. Don’t bleat about it. Football is a harsh world and because of the enormous wages it is very much dog eat dog.
I do not expect loyalty from players who have no history with the club. Why should Arshavin/Nasri etc be loyal. They are at Arsenal because they and their agents believed tat Arsenal was the best deal on offer at the time they signed. Nothing else.
And I cannot blame any player who decides to leave if Barca/RM come calling. I am an Arsenal fanatic, but I would be on the first plane out …..
Hi Raddy,
Slightly puzzled by your earlier comments, but it is probably my lack of understanding.
On the one hand you appear to be saying that you think a player who comes under pressure and is ‘relegated’ to the bench should stay and fight for his place back; on the other you are saying that if Barca/RM came calling you would not blame a player for leaving, and sod any loyalty issues.
Isn’t that akin to dancing on the head of a needle?
i.e. Don’t leave for reason (a), but it’s OK to leave for reason (b), based on the nationality,age of the player.
As I said I may have misunderstood your point.
Herb’sArmy: First, who knows whether Arsenal tried to sign Phil Jones? Journalists (prepare yourself) have a tendency to make stuff up.
Second, assuming we did try to sign him (and I hope we did, Jones is a good player), it happens. We got Ramsey, they got Smalling. And sometimes we beat people to players and it works out well (Nasri chose us over Real, Fabregas and Barca) and sometimes it doesn’t (Diaby chose us over Chelsea).
Who knows which 19-year old (Jenkinson or Jones) will turn out to be the better signing? But since Jenkinson is now one of ours, I’ll be supporting him.
Herb
Phil Jones is 19 Karl Jenkinson is 19 Why is ours a promising kid and not the manc one? I reads on some other blogs Wenger getting slated for looking at jones but bow sir do no wrong has him he must be the next vidic.
Herb,
Like you I am at a loss to explain what has happened with Smalling and now Jones.
In both cases Arsenal were the first in to make a bid and then out of the blue Red Nose comes to the party late throwing his money around.
Jones is supposed to be a Manure fan and that explains his choice, (although I had also heard he was a ‘Pool fan) , but then Smalling is a Gooner and that did not stop him going to the Mancs.
Next in line for Sir Arsehole is young Chamberlain of Southampton, who has long been expected to join us, and even his father wants that to happen.
I am beginning to get the impression Ugly Mug is watching AW and stepping in to spite him.
Of course he has form in this respect, AW was heavily linked with Stam and Horseface some years ago, but Ferguson allegedly made personal and illegal aproaches, in some peoples eyes, for both of them with the inevitable result that they joined YuuNited.
The latest transfers smack of pay back for making Utd and Fergie look stupid by announcing the capture of Ramsey before he turned around and joined us.
Weird!
jones was 17 million. bargain
Hi RA, am sure BR will get back to you on that one, but isn’t he simply saying he expects football players to be ambitious and fight for their place within the team (instead of leaving for a ‘lesser’ club because they are not happy), just as much as taking the opportunity to move to a ‘bigger’ team, if and when the opportunity arrises. I think for BR the key word is not loyalty but ambition as a driver for a top footballer to success.
RA, on the same topic, there is the case of Ricky Alvarez: according to the player’s agent, both Arsenal and Manchester United are now talking to his club, Velez Sarsfeld, but whereas Arsenal have been talking to Velez about Alvarez since the end of last season, United contacted them last week.
My impression is that we are often just too decent about these things. (Not that Bordeaux would agree, after the Chamakh signing.)
And GM, on the subject of transfer fees, how about £20m for Jordan Henderson??? Insane.
26,
He was/has been identified as a target for a while. I would suggest that Ramsey chose us because he knew he’d get more chance of actually playing, same probably for Fabregas, Nasri and Diaby ( and Diaby has hardly been a resounding success, has he!). None of those clubs you mentioned has suffered for not signing those players, nor have they fallen in the same way we have. We have a manager who tells us that finishing second is the equivalent of winning a trophy, and couldn’t even deliver that. Jenkinson might turn out to be a great signing, but how many kids do we need? It’s hardly a signing of intent is it? Do you think it will appease Nasri, seeing the Mancs spend £16m, while we spend £2m for a League One youngster?
Hi Folks
Thank you for the kind words, my apologies for not coming on earlier, I wasn’t aware that the post was going up today and I was out with about 25 cyclists in Hertfordshire.
BR
The analogy of the father deciding on behalf of his son is perfect. It seems very obvious to me that Bendtner senior is extremely influential in Bendtner junior’s decision making and I fully expect him to leave for first team football elsewhere. Do you really believe a move would not help him?
The same applies to Walcott and the hypothetical scenario I have painted above; he would leave if he found himself on the bench irrespective of how much he was earning with us and what’s more he would be gobbled up by Liverpool in 5 minutes which would probably suit him.
Should we care? Not really so long as we bring in better players.
Hi TA,
That’s OK, thanks.
It is a subjective call in that case, with no obvious right or wrong, and therefore difficult to argue whichever way the player’s decision goes.
For myself, I would take the view that it is better to move to a club that wants me as their number one, rather than sit and twiddle my thumbs on the bench hoping to become the number one at the current club.
Isn’t that precisely why clubs put aspiring players out on loan with ‘lower’ teams, to improve their skills? Sometimes it works (Jack) and sometimes it does not (Randall), either way the player has the opportunity to prove himself.
The club is very hard nosed in these instances; they keep one and chop the other.
Life, especially a professional footballer’s, is too short to hang around waiting on the whim of a manager and perhaps never being given the main chance as it is called.
It is part of life’s rich tapestry, you call the shots and take what comes. 🙂
Sky just said Arsenal go for youth while manchester united tie up the deal etc etc. have I missed something ? Have I got the ages wrong?
Hi London,
Nothing to do with your excellent post – but whereabouts have you been cycling in Hertfordshire? …… if you don’t mind me asking?
Herb
Don’t you mean because we are shit with a shit manager but the mancs are fantastic with the best manager ever?
26,
I don’t think AW’s frustrations with Ferguson will end with today’s news and you are right about the Alvarez deal.
In addition, we have come up against Citeh in our pursuit of Gervinho and Cahill, it seems, so it is like a kid having £10 in his hot sweaty hand to buy chocolates in a shop and some fat pig with a wealthy dad keeps buying the last box just to spite you.
Interesting read London. You make your points very well but I incline more towards Total’s view of things.
The problem for me is that players don’t come in two bundles: ‘world class’ and ‘unambitious journeyman.’
They range across a spectrum and within that spectrum there are many who, for various reasons, are good enough to play at a top level without demanding a guarantee that they’ll always play.
So, while undoubtedly some might look to move if a better player is brought in in their position it’s by no means a given.
Hence my conclusion that I am not averse to strengthening in certain positions this summer – including in the DM position (and if we do, I would not expect Song to leave).
The more I think about it the more I am sure Ferguson’s pettiness has something to do with his latest signings (and let’s not discuss Nasri).
He has two of the best CBs in the country in Vidic and Ferdinand, both with at least three years + left in them, plus Evans, and he buys Smalling under AW’s nose so that he plays on an occasional basis, and then he buys Jones.
So Red Nose can perm 2 from 5 CBs next season. There is no sense in that and no properly run club could find that level of profligacy acceptable.
Smalling, Evans and Jones know that, of course, so Raddy’s argument may well be proved one way ot another next season. Do Evans and Smalling move on or stay and fight for their places? Is Jones happy to be a ‘back up’ CB?
If they do, what does that say about their hopes and aspirations?
As I said earlier — weird!
RA, you are right in saying that a player who ends up on the bench, or worse, and does not believe anymore he will play regularly in the first team, will often choose to leave the club to become a first choice somewhere else. I don’t think there are many positive examples of this in recent history at Arsenal. The key here though is that the player has fought for his place for some time, before he decides I cannot get (back) into the first team anymore. Good examples are Denilson, Rosicky and possibly Bendtner. They tried hard but it looks like they lost the battle for regular team play to the likes of Rambo, Wilshere, Nasri and RvP/ Chamakh.
To a certain extent this is sad, as I believe that all these players tried very hard (although it does not always show). On the other hand, we have become a stronger team (in midfield) through this process and this remains paramount.
Herb, sorry mate, but your trouble is you’ve already made up your mind and everything that happens just “proves” your opinion.
I don’t really know what being “identified as a target for a while” means. It’s appeared in a tabloid or a website somewhere? So what? Have you seen the end of season lists of which clubs journos (whether with the self-serving prompting of agents or not) have linked with which players? The vast majority of the links are palpably nonsense. So unless there is a direct quote (as was the case with Ramsey, Smalling, Diaby etc), or you work inside one of the clubs, it’s just nonsense.
Re Diaby, go back and read what I said – I agree, he’s been a failure (though others here take a more positive view of him).
“None of those clubs you mentioned has suffered for not signing those players.” What does that mean? And on what basis can you even make an assertion about who has “suffered” what for not signing a player? Take Ramsey for example: are you seriously saying United’s midfield, utterly humiliated in the CL Final, wouldn’t have benefited from having Ramsey available? It’s all just meaningless conjecture.
How is Jenkinson a kid but Jones isn’t? You were the one who compared him with Phil Jones but they’re the same age. Actually, Jenkinson is 13 days (!) older than Jones!
Yes, we need to make a couple of significant signings this summer, and as I hope if we get Benzema and Samba, that will be precisely what the doctor ordered. But how do you know what is going on right now? You don’t, I don’t, no-one other than Wenger and Gazidis does. Just because Fergie and Dalglish overspend on kids at the beginning of the summer, that doesn’t mean anything for what Arsenal will do (other than sap their financial resources when it comes to competition for other players).
You don’t like Wenger. Fine, that’s your prerogative. But find some better material to beat him with than Phil Jones going to United for £16m, because that just isn’t convincing.
GM,
Rather a harsh indictment. We’re clearly not ‘shit’ with a ‘shit manager’, but we have regressed, and evidence has proved that we’re not really closing the gap. I think the Mancs are where they are today as a direct result of the Munich air tragedy, and the wave of public sympathy that followed. Someone on here said they wouldn’t spend big this summer because they don’t have the money, well we’ve both signed one player, and theirs cost considerably more than ours. Have they got the best manager ever? Hard to define. His record at Aberdeen and MU definitely stands up, but I think Herbert Chapman, Matt Busby, Bill Shankly and Cloughie have to be in the frame too. I don’t know the circumstances behind Liam Brady going to Italy, or Frank Stapleton leaving us for MU, but from that point on I always thought us to be below the elite, and that should one of those elite show serious intent in signing one of our best players, we would have to reluctantly sell. I think Wenger told us that moving to the Emirates would put us among the elite, therefore when the world’s best players become available for transfer we could compete on parity for their signature. Would you say that’s where we’re at right now? Part of me thinks we’re still the selling club that we were way back in 1980, so despite having a world-class stadium, how much have we actually progressed in those 30+ years?
Ha, I am with vingt-six on this one. It’s very early days and we should not read too much into the signing of Jenkinson as an indication of our ‘recruitment strategy’ for this summer. Keep the faith!
Buying players in the transfer window is a matter of choices with any number of parties having their input.
But back in the real world, many people make an important choice in selecting partners, sometimes with varying degrees of success. I offer you the following!
Be Careful what you ask For:
One man married a woman from Essex.
He reasonably told her that she was to do the dishes and clean the house.
It took a couple of days, but on the third day he came home to see a clean house and dishes washed and put away.
The second man married a woman from Sussex.
He gave his new wife orders that she was to do all the cleaning, wash the dishes and do the cooking.
The first day he didn’t see any results. The next day he saw it was better. By the third day, he saw his house was clean, the dishes were done and there was a huge dinner on the table.
The third man married a lass from Yorkshire.
He ordered her to keep the house cleaned, wash the dishes, mow the lawn, do the laundry, and have hot meals on the table for every meal.
He said the first day he didn’t see anything at all, the second day he didn’t see anything much but by the third day, some of the swelling had gone down and he could see a little out of his left eye, and his arm was healed enough that he could make himself a sandwich and load the dishwasher. But he still has some difficulty when he pees.
Arsene does not know the half of it! 🙂
I thought it was obvious I was joking. You put a negative spin on everything we do. You’re not the only one most gooners I know are negative about our club.
Manchester United and England defender Rio Ferdinand has defended the language he uses in his Twitter posts after coming bottom of a vocabulary league table among footballers who use the social networking site.
I thought he went to Oxfoerd
26,
I don’t recall comparing the two (unless you mean price), and maybe if we’d have shown enough ambition could have had both, Jenkinson is a full back and Jones a CB, and yes they’re both kids, although Jones has proved he can cut it in the PL. It’s not about disliking Wenger, it’s about closing the gap between us and the rest of Europe’s elite. We are the most expensive club-side to watch in world fpotball with the country’s highest paid manager. Is no-one accountable for that?
Hi TA,
now we have Dutch legend Johann Cruyff saying Fabregas should go to Barcelona!
Hi Herb, 🙂
I know you have Arsenal at heart, but sometimes you write things that come across as ‘non sequiturs’.
What I mean is that you sometimes seem to link two things together in an illogical way.
Such as “I shut the car door, and my TV aerial fell off the roof”. Both things may be true but are not related, and one thing did not cause the other. 🙂
Look;
— Arsenal and ‘Pool were the two favourites to land Jones, but United stepped in and signed him. (true) Therefore ‘Pool and Arsenal are not big clubs. (not true).
— Arsenal and ‘Pool are now favourites to sign Cahill instead, but Arsenal get him. (let’s say true). Therefore ‘Pool are not a big club. (clearly not true).
— Arsenal are expected to buy Samba, but Blackburn having sold Jones will not sell. (let’s say true). Therefore Arsenal are not a big club. (again not true).
— Arsenal try to buy Gervinho, but he prefers to join Citeh. (let’s say true). Therefore Arsenal are not a big club. (again, not true).
Your opinion as to whether Arsene is or is not a good manager is subjective, but either way there are those who will agree with you. But to link that, and say as a result, that Arsenal are not a big club or are a ‘selling’ club is not logical.
As I said before, your opinion is as valid as anyone else’s, but as 26 said, you need to have a more persuasive argument to convince us you are right! 🙂
Hi Rocky
I thought the reason Total Arsenal was having trouble grasping my point was because of the difference in language. Isn’t it obvious that I frame the post by using the concept of two world class players etc and then go on to say how this is an impossible dream.
My conclusion as to why people choose Song, rather than Walcott, Bendtner or Djourou, as their example is because most people don’t really care if he leaves or not.
The purpose of the post is to point out that it is more difficult for Wenger than meets the eye.
For us fans, we can come up with our wish list as though Wenger can just pop into Tesco and pick them off the shelves………he obviously can’t.
In short, there are consequences that limit his movements. Bendtner is very likely to leave because of the lack of first team opportunities, the same would apply to Walcott or Song.
Do we care as fans….of course not, but spare a thought for Wenger and the restrictions that don’t meet the eye of everyone.
Rasp
I am not ignoring your question but it is so hard to answer without a map.
One thing’s for sure, we’re not selling him to United,” Wenger said.
Amen to that
With regard to Arsene’s “targets” going elsewhere, times have changed since he arrived, now I believe that clubs like Chelski and Manure let the agents do their scouting for them. It would be naive to think that agents don’t contact these wealthier clubs as soon as Wenger shows an interest. Another reason why Arsene tries to do things as quietly as possible.
I remember, after Reyes scored two goals to knock Chelsea out of the cup, Abramovic asked why the hell they hadn’t signed him first.
Doesn’t the Phil Jones signing smack of the manu PR machine trying to get their own back for losing out on Ramsey? Don’t you remember how the Arsenal PR machine rubbed their noses in it when we signed the Welshman?
After speaking on the phone to Wenger, Phil Jones has decided to sign for manu.
The phone call.
Phil Jones: Can you guarantee me first team football Mr Wenger?
Arsene Wenger: no, I am sorry Phil I can’t, I have just read London’s post and apparently if I were to sign you Johann Djourou would leave.
I couldn’t resist the last bit. lol
RA,
I’m not always right and am probably more often than not wrong. Yes we are a big club, but despite charging the most expensive prices in the world and having the highest-paid manager in the UK, we are far from being the biggest. We are not one of the top-bracket elite clubs. MU and Liverpool are both bigger clubs than us. If we were at the very top-table, the economics would justify themselves. If we are unable to take that next step up, we should acknowledge this and cut our cloth accordingly.
Whas goin ornn ere are we buyin this fracker jones or aint we
down ere in cornwall we don frackle aboot buy the fraker or frak im thas wat i sez what we is needen is a bullockin big bastard to stuf itn to em we won a war thataway big fockers shot down by our bullockin big frackers. that showed em
No we ain’t signing the fracker lol
No problem London, I was just wondering if you had been in my area (N.E. Herts) as it is very popular with cyclists.
Did my 4:36 not make any sense then RA? Apologies for that.
Rasp
Herford, Ware, the Hadams, the Pelhams…….beautiful country. I ride to Cambridge and back, which takes me all the way through Herts, quite regularly.
Herb,
You are no more wrong than 99% of the rest of us! 🙂
And, I know you want us to be the biggest and best and win everything.
So do I. 🙂
Hi Stormy or should that be Daze? 🙂
Interesting point, I’ll have to think it over for a bit. How is it down in Cornwall? Stormy, maybe?
Sorry Herb, I posted my comment before I saw your 5:35.
No, I wasn’t strictly meaning to criticise the content of your 4:36 and your earlier comment, it was just to explain that what you wrote may not logically ‘read’ quite the same way as you intended it to, which may have sparked the responses from 26 and TA. Who knows?
Mind you, in my case that’s a bit like the kettle calling the pot black! 🙂
On that point RA, are we a selling club, or one that aspires to join the elite at the top table?
London,
That’s my manor, I play cricket in most of the places you list. The old A10 up through Braughing etc is a beautiful stretch of countryside
I’m not sure what definition you are using for a selling club, Herb, apart from the obvious.
Clearly we are a selling club in the absolute use of the terminology.
We sold our best ever player, Thierry, we have sold many others too such as Paddy, Reyes etc, but we also let slip players who ran out of contract, and who we would probably have wanted to stay or be sold on for some lovely lolly rather thango on a ‘free’.
However, I sense that you mean something more by the term than the simple commercial sale of players no longer required by the club.
On the other hand, every club, using the ‘simple’ definition, is a selling club. Manyoo selling Ronaldo to Madrid, ‘Pool selling Torres to Chelsea, Chelsea selling myriads of lower level players, especially in this window, the Spuds selling Carrick and many, many others, and even Citeh are now doing their damnedest to sell Santa Cruz etc. Barca and RM are also selling clubs in that sense too.
But you know all that, so, as I said, you need to explain what you mean by ‘selling club’! 🙂
Carnt yew lah di bluddy dah fookers talk propr henglish
an as fer that london cyclist yew needs to watch owt fer yer gonads
thems vulnabel orn those hardd seddles cut yer in arf theys will corse we use bluddy big clippers on them testicules te bring bollockin big bulls unner controll and them don like it
RA,
Would it be fair to say Brady and Stapleton were our best two players back in 1980? If so, we weren’t able to keep hold of them, so that would be the barometer I’d use as an example of what I’m trying to say.
Stormy Daze has got to be one of Micky’s mates. 🙂
Well Brady was absolutely the bees knees from what I have seen on video. Stapleton seemed OK too, but not in the same class as Brady but he went to Manyoo didn’t he? Yeuk.
But we dumped a number of other players on them too, I think. David Herd? Or did we buy him from them. Ian Ure, David Saddler? Can’t be sure as it was before my time.
I sort of see where you are coming from, but again there were comings and goings at all clubs then and now, so not sure it proves anything one way or another.
Got to go. Stomach is rumbling. Tomorrow! 🙂
brady he were a gurn grate playerr orlright
wass orl that -got to go- bolllockss fook off ra yew yankee tosspot comin over ere intrferin wiv orl our wimmin
Carlos Tevez seemingly calls time on his Manchester City career after telling an Argentinian chat show host that the city is “small and wet”, and that he would “not even return there on vacation”
Could be a lot worse 🙂
GM,
Tevez would have been a perfect fit for us with RvP in the Bergkamp role.
If only Herb. I’d be pissed off if he was ours and talking like that though.
Sadly GM we’ll probably never know, but I think he’d have been a lot happier and more appreciated with us.
He would have done well if he’d stayed with the other mancs too.
“Manchester is small and wet and I would not even return there on vacation.” (Tevez)
Could it get any worse?
Could it get any more funny?
That is absolutely hilarious.
I am suprised no has mentioned Nasri’s twitter “Don’t believe everything you read in the papers” May be they did but I just didn’t notice it.
Don’t know if you caught it London, but in case you didn’t, all the best for your cycling expidition.
London @5.11.
At a particular point in your post, you are making the link between the ‘ideal of two world players per position’ with the concept of ‘healthy competition’, which has been expressed by a number of AA’ers in recent days (including me). It should be no surprise to you then that bloggers respond to your introductory theme of ‘two world players per position’, as well as your views on the need for ‘healthy competition’. I can assure you, you do not need to worry about language differences between you and me. I understand you rather well, in every aspect of what you are trying to say. Therefore, I would like to ask you to respond to the content of my comment and nothing else in future.
Evening all,
Apologies for not yet reading the post or the comments…will do tomorrow hopefully.
But during a call with Wonderman 5 mins ago, he mentioned todays post, and I put forward the notion that its actually World Class Concentration that we need.
Our players are good enough, its the application and concentration that we lack. Too many of our players seem to switch off far too often and far too easily.
Back when i played we used to do drills in training that helped with our concentration. You’d play a game between two 6 a side teams in say red and blue, with , with another four players in green who switched sides to play with whichever team had the ball. It was generally ten passes for a goal, rather than scoring into nets.
Was that a bit random…sorry, maybe some of you will get my point.
That apology was for commenting without first reading the post.
World Class Concentration Sharkey – that’s what we need, I got it 😉
Ok read the post now.
I’m all for a bit of loyalty and a bit of growing your own.
I’d much rather Frimpong or Song contributed to us winning a title than if we’d spent 25-30m prising Essien out of Chelsea, or de Jong out of Man City.
Likewise I’m loving how good Kozzer has been in comparison to Luiz who cost three times as much.
Maybe I’m mad, but shiny new stars don’t seem to excite me as much watching someone break through.
Do Villa fans honestly think that Darren Bent is really ‘their Darren Bent’ when he scores. When he kisses the Villa badge after scoring, do some Villains want to tell him not to bother, cos they know that he’s only passing through..??
Just a thought.
Cheers Peachy Sue 😉
Hi Sharkey – I’m with you on enjoying seeing our own young talent blossom in the squad. I think we have a very good first team – injuries permitting. I just feel that the gap between our first team and our squaddies is too wide.
The Manks have still been able to call on Giggs and Scholes after all these years and we don’t have good experienced players to prop the team up when we need it. Bringing Ramsey on to save a game with 20 minutes to go isn’t the way to do it IMO. But I think it’s too late now to have our own crop of experienced players in the wings 😦
Total Arsenal
Your use of the English language is impressive but you were the only person who totally missed the point of the post.
And by the way, please remember that the original debate was between me and GM which you chose to join; so I say this to you, if you do not like what I say do not get involved.
London what were we debating? I mentioned the twitter without actually referring to twitter. It’s put me at ease a bit. We are lucky Robin hasn’t got a broken ankle.
http://www.101greatgoals.com/videodisplay/shocking-diego-lugano-tackle-robin-van-persie-10564553/
Oh my god, that tackle was outrageous. The thing that infuriates me is that if that had put Van Persie out for 6 months I know there are Arsenal supporters who would call for him to be sold claiming he is injury prone.
We were chatting about transfers GM no biggy.
http://www.mundodeportivo.com/20110531/participacion/encuestas/a-quien-prefieres-en-el-barca-a-cesc-o-a-thiago_54163719930.html
Barca fans vote about cesc!!
TrueG
We had that one on here a couple of days ago: the majority of Barça fans would prefer to keep Thiago than sign Cesc.
I’m off see you all later
Morning all: here is your rumour for the day do we believe it…
Arsenal are in talks with both Bolton’s Gary Cahill and Blackburn’s Christopher Samba as manager Arsene Wenger looks to shore up the centre of his side’s defence. Samba would cost about £12m while a £15m deal would be enough to prise Cahill from the Reebok. (Daily Mirror)
Morning Dandan
I take so little notice of the bottom end of the table can you tell me if Blackburn got relegated?
I have just looked on the BBC………no they weren’t.
For anyone who needs cheering up this morning have a look at the Tevez interview on the BBC Football home page……..absolutely hilarious.
Morning all
London – yep, very funny
BR – something for you to read: http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/columnists/julie-burchill/julie-burchill-the-unbearable-smugness-of-sandi-toksvig-ndash-and-what-the-cword-really-means-2294861.html
The reason we didn’t sign Tevez:
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-1EQhD49Xfr8/TaefCQKoIQI/AAAAAAAAAgE/0x49xHenljE/s400/tevez.jpg&imgrefurl=http://unseensports.blogspot.com/2011/04/carlos-tevez.html&h=218&w=257&sz=12&tbnid=cMMVqAj2YToNpM:&tbnh=95&tbnw=112&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dtevez%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=tevez&hl=en&usg=__QSVygpSYBpkcCJS6US68U-r0SeA=&sa=X&ei=H3_wTeObGo6GhQf5oelK&ved=0CFAQ9QEwBg
Hi Evonne,
That’s a very entertaining piece by JB, I’d love to have her as a guest at a dinner party – nobody would be safe!
Morning Evonne, Rasp, 🙂
Interesting article by Julie Birchell. She is right about Sandi Toskvig but on the other hand JB is pretty nauseating herself.
I would be too pusillanimous to tell her that face to face at your dinner party Rasp, so you will have to tell her for me. Good luck! 🙂
Hiya Rasp, she is a bitch, isn’t she 🙂
I like her journalism, but her books are just dreadful, sex sex and more kinky sex
Morning RA,
New post everyone…………………
Morning Red Arse – pusillanimous??? the the feck is that? have to google it 😦
Hi Rocky, this was your take on Song from 2010
https://arsenalarsenal.wordpress.com/2010/09/30/songs-position-in-question/
[…] Arsenal: Two World Class Players for Every Position. « Arsenal Arsenal This is hardly a revelation, there is nothing new about wanting two world class players for every position but just like ideal communism it is a good idea in theory the problem being it simply does not work in practice. […]