I think the root of the problem with ‘Underminers’ as described in a recent post by Rocky, lies with the stadium. This is a purely personal view but here goes.
When I started going to football I stood, whether on the North Bank or the Kids enclosure or the CE. I became educated into the Arsenal way by fans who had a lifetime of seeing us as a mid-table side. Then came success and with it bigger average attendance but in the later 70′s and the ’80′s it was possible to put out both arms and not touch anyone. Arsenal and football had become unpopular.
But following the Gazza tears at WC ’90 football became once again the peoples game but now the demographic was different; more middle class, more sanitised. Out went the passion and the fervour and in it’s place came the intellectualisation of football. If you don’t believe me just imagine how AW would have fared in the time of managers such as Shankly or Alf Ramsey or Clough – these men were real working class heroes. 5 languages? They could hardly speak one.
So, we started to become successful and fill the ground and with that came better players. Better players cost more but they attract more fans, and in the process Highbury became too small. Prices started to rise and with it expectation.
At first we were able to cope by having tens of thousands on the season ticket waiting list but which economist would not see the opportunities?
Suddenly we had an additional fanbase that was richer than the working class lads who stood on the North Bank, they were quieter but much better behaved and the Highbury Roar became The Highbury Library.
We became all-seater and built the new wonderful but not so homely North Bank. Now the fans could get into the ground far more easily, they didn’t have to queue whilst the anticipation increased the tension. They didn’t arrive 2 hours before the game and get “in the mood”. It was different.
And that different fanbase and atmosphere changed The Arsenal; we became a business. It was a business decision to move to the Emirates. The Directors may well have told us that the future of the club as being competitive internationally was at stake, but the real truth was their concerns were profit. We moved and in my opinion it ripped the heart out of the club. It will take years to make The Emirates our home, it has started and will continue but at what cost?
A shiny new ground needs to be filled and as long as football remains the drug of the masses Arsenal will play to a packed houses but the football experience has changed.
The new fans arrive in their seats 2 minutes before kick-off, they leave 10 minutes before the final whistle – why? It didn’t happen at Highbury, so I cannot see the logic in saying “we have to get a train/ bus/ tube etc etc”. Going to Arsenal should be the highlight of the week, not getting home faster!
It seems to me that those who grew up in the Wenger years expect so much and if those expectations are not realised then they will gripe. I don’t blame them, they haven’t been properly educated because when Arsenal became a Business we ceased to be fans and became customers. And if a customer has paid for something then he has the right to complain if he doesn’t get what he expects.
The Emirates (just the name says all you need to know) has in my opinion irrevocably changed The Arsenal. Sure, different times require different solutions and the new wealthier fan would not put up with the state of Highbury, why should they?
A state of the art stadium attracts state of the art new fans, and those fans will not accept anything but a 5 star performance. Hence they gripe.
As has been said some fans are not supporters.
Written by Big Raddy
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Wow Raddy,
More rushed job posts please Sir. Excellent read, thank you.
“5 languages? They could hardly speak one” Extreme ROLF
“we ceased to be fans and became customers” Very UNROLF
While I think everything you say is true, I do think it needs to be set in the context of society as a whole. This expectancy thing goes hand in hand with peoples demand that they now have rights to everything, as opposed to earning the right to anything.
The time frame of both changes in attitude do run in parallel
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it a good point well made, but i also believe it some 7/8 after moving to the Emm’s that we now now starting to see the money that it as generated (as well the money from selling most of our best players in this time). No other club that as built a new statium as stayed in the same division, all have been relagated. Arsenal not only managed to stay in the same division but stayed in the top 4 too. Hence the poo spuds and chavski have not gone on to build new statiums. The drain on the resources is too much. Chavski fans don’t even trust the man that brought their success over the last 10 years to sell the ground to him, so he can build a new statium for them.
Man cieth have also brough success but the income can not sustain the growth in expeniture and they will also have to start to cut back on spending.
We are starting to get in a very strong position and if we spend some £50-60M wisely on the summer (as well s getting rid of the ‘dead-wood’) we should be clear to mount a serious challenge for honours for next season and the future.
I too went to the school boys enclosure, NB and CE.
Would big red nose have kept manure in the same position if they had done the same as WE did …i think the answer is no….
Great comment Steve.
Can’t wait for Spuds to get the builders in 🙂
The Royal Doulton toilet bowl. It is the difference between Highbury and the Emorates is that between a home and a house. Aesthetically the Emirates is a toilet bowl. It has all the clinical surgical style of a toilet bowl. This is what happend when these stupid architects who build stadia without realising that they should have a soul or a spirit are employed by a club including Wenger that does not see the pitch that Arsenal play on as sacred but as some utilitarian and functional monstrocity that is built to capitalise wealth. The Emirates should be called Royal Doulton. I can just hear them say you don;t understand everyone is now seated. Yes that is right. On a toilet bowl in a toilet bowl. Then they will say it is modern and fans enjoy the game in comfort and luxury. Yes that is also correct. Just like sitting on a Royal Doulton toilet bowl. Where is the intimacy, the closeness, the spirit that electrified your nerves of Highbury. It is just like any other toilet bowl. What is even worse is that the Emirates is the concrete tomb of both Arsenal and Highbury.
Spot on very much spot on,I’ve said all along to those who would listen,that some of us have see the really dark days at Arsenal but the moaners and grippers are mostly from post ’98 era and so see the current squad as the worst ever at Arsenal.Wake up guys we have had to watch a midfield of Morrow,McGoldrick Hillier and Helder with Kiwomya upfront in games before,if they knew who these players were and their abilities they would stop moaning yet we cheered them on even when the couldn’t pass a ball 5yards(harsh I know) but most who were fans in that era know what I mean. I can’t forget the sign at the North-bank that said “You,must sing if in this stand we know not everyone can sing but YOU MUST sing”. We didn’t have fans who thought they knew better than the Manager and Hurl abuse at any opportunity,better still we didn’t slag off our own players in public or during games we supported we could score only 1goal most times and defend forever hence 1-0 to the Arsenal. Today,we grind out a 1-0 result and the players get abused and the manager is wanted out. Memories teach some of us and we should be careful what we wish for.
Raddy forgot to actually add alone to my last comment this morning:
http://www.footballacademytalk.com/football-league-youth-development-rules-2013/
Right now lets have a read of this post
You may have a point. But it is not THE point.
The simple reason that there are moaners, or ‘underminer’ (Christ I am so tired of Arsenal ‘fans’ trying to invent factions amongst themselves in order to provoke) is that we are currently going though the third longest trophy draught since we won our very first FA Cup. We are fans of Arsenal a club, whether you chose to hide your head in the sand and ignore it or not, whose very essence and history is about winning and glory nights. All Arsenal fans need to remind themselves this is Arsenal. Where winning matters. Not some Chelsea or Charlton where 20 years without a trophy has to be seen as more acceptable as winning is simply not their way. It is not just ‘those who grew up in the Wenger years’ that are spoilt on success (that is a statement that insults our great club and one fitting of sites like the lamentable farce that is Untold Arsenal). -Success has been remarkably consistently sustained since the 1930’s – with the notable exception of three major gaps, one of which we are mired in right bow. It is not Wenger who spoiled us. It is our choice of club that has spoiled us. Wengers initial years were simply part of what this club expects, because if you look at our history, that is the way it is for Arsenal
I think the complacency (ooooh we have a lovely stadium, and our manager is such a pleasant man compared to others, and we make soooo much money, and we get to play against top European teams even if doesn’t seem to matter if we never beat them, and aren’t our seats comfortable and isn’t our view nice) has allowed some fans to forget that travelling to watch Arsenal is not like going to the theatre. In the final analysis, we go to see our team win. Not be the best run club, or the one that plays the best football (which we don’t. Some of this years fare has been as bad as the very worst of Graham. For long ball simply read slow pass slow pass slow pass slow pass – dispossessed! I found parts of the second half of Sunday;s game, supposedly one of our better games, unwatchable, and I clearly remember the Don How erea)And we are enduring one of the longest winless periods in our history. That is a fact, nobody can tell you otherwise although the club would no doubt put a spin on it. A fan who doesn’t take issue with that must have been neutered!. The most frustrating thing about the current regime is their lack of honesty – they try to make a virtue out of our draught. Sorry, it might fool the complacent, but it wont fool anybody else.
When all of us were kids (some of us sadly a longer time ago than others) we didn’t kick a ball against an imaginery goal and think ‘fantastic, I have just finished off an intricate 40 pass move reminiscent of some foreign team’ or ‘great, I have secured another 40m windfall for my club. We scored the winner in the cup final, or the league cup final, or the championship! That is what made us fall in love with the game. And that is why I still love my club. Because I have to believe that we will shake off this stagnation and get back to where we belong. But there is no way in hell I will accept that the current dross is any form of success
I suppose my question to the author would be, if you grew up during a very rare gap in Arsenal’s success (just bad timing unfortunately as there have been so few gaps – the period you talk about was almost a one-off until now, and is in no way typical of what Arsenal under most of its managers has produced), how can you be seen to be defending the club when it is going through a period that threatens to replicate or even exceed that! I don’t see why there has to be polarisation – yes the period 53-71 was one that Arsenal fans should not be happy about. But the current period is probably the only other one in the clubs history which is comparable (there were a few 5ths 4ths and 3rds in those earlier barren years too, don’t forget). But lets be honest, at best 4th is only an upper mid table position anyway and should never be trumpeted by a fan of the Arsenal.
I am not saying hang the manager, but it seems Arsenal fans seem to be ploarised a the moment. It is not being insulting, or unrealistic, or complaing to tell the truth:- For a club of Arsenals history and standing, what we are enduring is a very very very long way from being good enough.
Well written article with each point made relevant – I’m not sure high bury will ever be recreated and this is a sad fact of one of the outcomes of money be pumped into the game
Royal Doulton,
Sadly, I agree with you. The Ems has no architectural merit whatsoever. In twenty years it will look dated, whereas the East Stand Highbury looks as magnificent today as it did 80 years ago.
My biggest beef though is the distance from the pitch of the stands which kills the atmosphere, and let’s face it, with the twenty odd thousand brats inside (in line with Isaac’s correct thinking), the atmosphere needs all the help it can get.
BR: Great post, very well thought out. Unfortunately football in England is a victim of its own circumstances. The previously high rate of hooliganism throughout England, the tragic events of Hillsborough and so on, along with the total globalization of football have all led to the reasoning and justification of all seater stadiums. However, while perhaps a far safer and more family oriontated atmosphere has been created, it has in turn driven away a lot of the so called die hard supporters and also priced out a lot of those working class supporters. It really is a shame because when you compare to other European leagues, they all still have designated standing areas for those die hard fans. Look at Dortmund for Example, their “Nord Kurve” behind the goal, hosts something like 26,000 standing spectators! All of the teams in Germany are geared at accomodating the working class fan and have some standing areas that offer a standing ticket for as low as 7.50 Euro (South Kurve Bayern Munchen) These clubs have not lost the relationship to its true supporters. Where as in England it is money first and supporters second. England may well be the greatest league in the world, but at what price? Especially when many clubs cater more to tourists than to their own fans!
Isaac I always loved watching McGoldrick warm up he used to run around in socks and ping fifty yard balls about, come the kick off and with boots on he list something, maybe he would’ve been better at beach football.
Raddy fine post….to my shame I am now one of the group that arrive with minutes to spare, this is because I know where I’m sitting, and I want to enjoy more time with mates before we move to different parts of the ground.
I also find the nature of season ticket holders very strange there are lots of people who say hello to each other who’s it next to each other week in week out, views become homogenised within the group, either good or bad but mainly indifferent. You can tell the occasional visitor to an area, they go against the grain they stand up and implore others to sing with them with no fear of being labelled “the nut job in seat 33” for the rest of their Arsenal supporting life. I have bleated about it many times before make the North Bank Lower and Clock End Lower unallocated seating. Let us gather together early and find somewhere where we can all sit together, AA’ers four abreast going back over two or three rows. Even RedAction is becoming as boring as other parts of the ground, last time I ST in there I named it Red Murmur, my seat had split a group of friends, they asked me to shift to one end so they wouldn’t be talking across me……er….there’s a football match goin on and we are here to do one thing support the team not chat about the Ryder Cup and show each other pictures on their smart phones of their last night out…did anyone ever take their photo album to football when they stood on te terraces?
I think the club has made great strides in improving the look of the stadium, the soulless concrete is being replaced with Arsenal themed murals (the players in arms around the stadium look great) the ground looks truly special at night. It’s particularly revealing speaking to fans from other clubs when they have visited the ground for the first time, they speak in raptures about it, and it reminds me how special the new stadium is.
Bloody hell, there’s enough words in some of these excellent comments for about a weeks’ worth of posts.
Can you chaps pop back again 🙂
GiE,
Bluetacking posters all over the place masks nothing 🙂
Sleeping, Janman and GiE,
These are all epic comments. I am going to have to cancel a few meetings so that I can join in properly.
Great post Raddy
Some greats comments and i generaly agre with most of it. Highbury was and will always be were the heart is, but i guess we have to move with the times.
i dont like the design of the Grove either. It dont matter were you are in the place its all the same and lacks carachter. I do however enyoy the comfy seats. i have a very sore arse these days so those padded chairs come in handy. hahaha
Lets not kid ourselves. The whinging and the moaning has been there since whem i first started going in the seventies.
If were been honest, i think a lot of the annoyance comes from the fact that it was some how alright if you were working class and had a pop rather than some of these more well to do newbies that moan today.
The nature of the crowd may have changed but a moan is a moan, and a pop is a pop.
Sleeping Giant. Great comment and thank you for debating without resorting to abuse. Sadly, much of what you write is correct but the major difference between now and other periods in our history is money.
Can you remember the shock when Chelsea paid 30mill for Schevchenko? Or MC 32 m for Robinho? Or MU 28m for Veron? (all brilliant signings 🙂 )
We can’t do that and therefore stand at a huge disadvantage.
Isaac and Royal Doulton. You both appreciate that the atmosphere has vanished and is only on show at the big, big games. It wasn’t always so.
As I said in the post which I wrote some time ago, why when the game is the highlight of the week and very expensive to attend, do so many fans leave early?
I don’t really understand the logic. The stadium, arguably one of the best football stadiums in the world, is to blame for arsenal fans being quiet and dull? I think the arsenal fans who can afford to go to these games need to shoulder full responsibilty for the atmosphere of the stadium. A building as architecturally stunning as the Emirates can only provide inspiration, if the fans ignore it and only want to sit in their expensive seat and spout negativity, then they’d do it sitting in a bin or at a 6 star hotel or whilst frantically bashing off. It’s the fans to blame, not bricks and mortar, the fans need to shut up and feed off the positives of the club, not sit around being pessimistic about a poor Sagna performance or busting Ramsays balls. You look through the lower position teams and lower league teams in shite stadiums and their atmosphere is a million times better than ours. I don’t get a chance to get to the Emirates as often as I’d like, as it is very expensive, but everytime I go, the away fans are louder than us. We, as arsenal fans, need to stop tripping over our bottom lip and stand proud for our team. A defeat shouldnt piss on our passion, our passion should piss on a defeat.
Janman. Well said. I have no doubt that we could attract more fans into the ground if there was a standing section.
Better policing, safer stadiums and better surveillance mean it is possible to have a safe standing area – but would the BoD allow it?
Richard. I agree with you. The headline of the post wasn’t mine and I have a feeling you didn’t read the post!
Richard,
” A defeat shouldnt piss on our passion, our passion should piss on a defeat”
I’ll be using that as one of my own 🙂
Excellent line.
Micky. 46? It will be a close run affair!
Having been a life long fan and just this year started to get to my first ever games as a result of working in London my new pet hate has become my fellow fans. I don’t understand how they can get to their seats with the game already kicked off leave for food on 40 minutes return on 50 and leave for home at 80 I mean why go to a game if it doesn’t fill you with excitement to see the team you’ve grown up loving kick every last ball. I stay and applaud the players of the pitch regardless as its my view we are in it together we are all Arsenal. Otherwise we the fans reduce it ourselves to being just customers and the players employees,
Richard well said your spot on. For the moaners who come every week try going to one of the subsidised coca cola games when the local kids can get in for a tenner the enthusiasm creates an atmosphere. Like a cup final even when where playing third tier opponent s putting some regular punters to shame
Thank you Raddy. We all need to keep our heads!
Regarding the money situation, as we well know at this stage, it is not a case of can’t compete but won’t compete. The self sustainability ‘policy’ is entirely self imposed. Nobody makes us adhere to it except our owner, with the very public (and foolish in my eyes) backing of the manger. The club makes fortunes anyway (and makes a mess of how it distributes it, but that’s for another day!), but there is nothing whatsoever stopping our billionaire shoring up the shortfall with wads of this own and funding the club. Other than personal choice. There is not a single avenue of investment open to the Russians or the Sheikh that isn’t open to Stan. He simply will not do it. So as fans we have a duty to either accept that we will not compete with smaller clubs, even though we could, or object to the policy. I choose the latter course. Of course if you want to argue that he is not actually a billionaire, just a pretend one, then he should get the hell out of the way and let in a big hitter. Now where would we get one of those…oh hang on! But again he won’t, Choice. We chose to be where we are. Which is consistently finishing a single place above a club with half our wage bill – we talk about not competing with Man U- we are far closer to them in wage bill than Spuds are to us, but do you hear them whining about an unequal playing field? I cant understand why every Arsenal fan isn’t questioning this!
The second issue is that, even if we accepted we cannot compete with the best in the league (rather than chose not to), there have been many instances over the years when we have been far from the best team. But those teams still managed to win something – eg the 79 cup final. Equally other clubs (Liverpool most notably) have gone on to great success when they were financially outgunned and didn’t have a great team. But for some reason the club does not want to acknowledge this. Has a team ever performed so consistently just below the top of the league an failed to win anything? This is a massive failure in itself and surely questions have to be asked about the drive and direction of the club. I can promise you there would be far fewer complaints around the goldfish bowl, and an lot more atmosphere had we the balls to go on and win one of those champions leagues the Club is always so delighted to qualify for They have again spun it so that absolutely incredibly, most fans will argue about the relative merits of finishing top 4 or winning a cup. It is only when we have a poorer team in future years that those very same fans will realise it was a criminal failure of that team that it wasn’t able to win a load of cups by virtue of the very fact that the consistently were in the top 4 in the country. It is easier to win when you are only three teams better than you surely.
Nope, something is very very wrong inside the Ems. Qualification for the champions league has papered over the cracks. I truly believe the next manager is going to be left with a club that is ostensibly commercially thriving, but is iinternally in a worse state from a sporting point of view since the days when George Graham rode in on his white charger to turn the club on its head. I hope I’m wrong but all the evidence says otherwise.
Isaac you forgot to mention Selley in your list of woeful players.
I agree Tomahawk, although I do know some diehard supporters who travel a long way to games and for logistical reasons do have to leave early – but that doesn’t excuse the majority of those who fail to wait and applaud the players off the pitch.
I was very impressed with the Dortmund away supporters and also those of Bayern, they really do support as one, singing and chanting in perfectly organised Germanic unison 😕
BR: Judging from the comments, today’s post has created interest for many people. I may be wrong as I have never been to the Emirates Stadium but I think the main issue is that there does not seem to be a real designated home fan area like at the old Highbury North Bank or clock end. It seems as though the “die hard” fans are more spread out around the stadium, therefore generating towards the loss of atmosphere. Also in the all seater stadiums it would appear that the stewards spend more time making the people sit down and remain seated, again, generating towards the lack of atmosphere! As I said earlier, the European leagues and in particular Germany, have set standing areas, usually behind the goal. This is the area where all of the noise comes from and in turn creates a great atmosphere between the home and away fans. Plus in most European stadiums you can drink and in many cases they have portable vendors (people) with a drum of Bier strapped to their back and they serve you Bier in a plastic mug. You cannnot get any better service than that 🙂
sleeping giant. Another worthy comment and one I can much agree with – but I hope you are wrong.
Isaac. The list of poor players from that time could be a long one ….
Fan = Fanatic (by definition). Supporter = Support by various means incl. financial.
I think it’s much more a case of not all supporters are fans. I’m a fan. Have been for 42 years.
Obviously you’re a fan too. I find your pov quite hard to believe. Do you really believe we’d be better off in the long term in a 38000 capacity stadium? yes the Board want to make a pofit, but they take no dividends. Profit is retained by the club. In the longer term (yes, I still buy into the long term plan), we will be a huge force in European football because we will continue to have machday revenues that dwarf those of our “smaller” rivals, in particular Spuds, Liverpool and Everton. Our long term prognosis is extremely bright financially and I believe we will dominate England again very soon. To even think that with Abramovitch, The Sheiks and the United machine is a remarkable testament to the job the Board has done. In my humble opinion – as a fan.
BR,
I read the Post, and some of your responses to comments from Sleeping Giant, with interest and some surprise.
Are you saying you want to eschew the club’s policy of self sustainability and breaking even, year on year, and for the ‘billionaire owner’ to delve into his own pocket to loan funds to the club for the transfer budget, even if that is now no longer permitted under UEFA and EPL FFP regulations?
You have previously raised the issue of Arsenal becoming a ‘business’ when it left Highbury and moved to the Emirates.
I did not understand that before, and I do not understand it now.
Arsenal became a ‘business’ early in the 20th Century when it was incorporated as a company, governed under statute within the Companies Act.
I have not read Arsenal’s Memorandum and Articles of Association, but it will have set out it’s share capital and its objectives as a business, which in Arsenal’s case would refer to it’s activities, as a properly incorporated company, engaged in the commercial activity of running a football club, by selling tickets to fans, the buying and selling of players and all ancillary matters connected with football.
I ask, because I simply do not understand how moving to the Emirates suddenly made Arsenal become a ‘business’ because that appears to be the crux of your argument for why fans were mislead about the club’s real intentions and simply became customers.
A fan can be, and often is, a customer, the terms are not mutually exclusive.
Surely the purpose of moving to the Emirates was to ensure more fans could gain access and to enjoy watching the team ‘live’, and by doing so increase the revenue of the club, which within its self sustainability/break even model, those funds could be reinvested in the running of the club, including its transfer budget?
I am confused by your conclusion. Sorry. 🙂
It’s not the stadium that arrives as the game is starting. It’s not the stadium that sits mute in it’s seat. It’s not the stadium that sits and quietly moans. It’s not the stadium that leaves it’s seat five minutes before half time. It’s not the stadium that doesn’t get back to it’s seat untill five minutes after the restart. It’s not the stadium that leaves ten minutes before the final whistle.
No! It’s none of the above. It’s the “fans”!
BR – I can always relate to these type of posts by you coz we’re about the same age etc
Highbury will always mean so much to me, it’s simply part of my dna! As I’ve written on this site in the past, my grandfather was a season ticket holder from the end of the 1920s right up until he passed in 2005.
I reckon playing those Champions League matches at Wembley in the 1990’s made the board realize that if we could sell out Wembley, then the 38,000 maximum capacity at Highbury simply couldn’t meet demand, and they were right coz now every match is sold out for 60,000. So what’s next, an 80,000 stadium, 100,000 etc?
One thing though can’t change for me – Highbury “was” Arsenal.
Big Raddy may I say possibly the greatest ever post. Basically you bent the ball round THEN OVER the wall into the post a richoched it into the net….GOAL.
Please im not in a position to go to matches any more,and to tell you the truth never been to the ems. My match day experience was between ten to twelve away matches a season.
So please can someone explain to me what is more important than staying to the end of a match at the ems for the sake of getting off five minutes early to miss the crowds…. is it the x factor, is it the voice, is it Britain has not got talent, or is it you would rather go out for a meal?
Is going to Arsenal and watching a game the whole part of your day or is it just something you do like go to work and something else equally mundane and other things like as listed above or maybe the cinema or theatre your main entertainment of the week?
Because I cant get anymore for various reasons it upsets me. Id rather see the stadium half full for all the match with total support from hard core gooners.
Please if so explain. (big raddy I can tell this does not apply to you but feel free to agree or disagree if im not quite getting it)
This is the best combination of Post and comments on AA for a very long time.
Well done BR and all who have taken the time and trouble to write such insightful comments.
Unfortunately this a crazy work day so i can’t really join in but I’m looking forward to reading the rest of the comments that will undoubtedly follow…
I have some fond, and not so fond, memories of standing on the North Bank in the 1950s/60’s and early 70s.
Back in the day you had to get to the ground early in order to “bag” your favourite spot. There was a buzz about the ground, speculation about who would be playing and who wouldn’t. Were there any film of TV cameras present, one in the stand and one behind the goal. The Metropolitan Police Band marching up and down the pitch, if it wasn’t too muddy. Looking out for your mates and calling them over into the bit of space you had managed to keep behind one of the crush barriers.
The gradually building excitement as the away team came out onto the pitch in their street clothes to have a poke at the pitch and see what the atmosphere was like. The bloke pushing his way through the crowd selling his “Fresh Roasted Peanuts”. The teams coming out for a kick around and then the game itself.
Go out for some light refreshment at half time? Leave before the end? You must be bloody joking.
Just a thought, we went from May 1971 till May 1979 without a trophy, then again from May 1979 till April 1987. Two 8 year droughts. Today’s fans wouldn’t be able to handle that!
I daren’t mention not winning the league between ’71-’89…… then again a lot of my mates are Spurs fans, and they’ve got to be over 52 to have been alive when they last won the league…..
Sorry to completely change the topic but does anyone know much about this Jovetic who, it’s highly rumoured, is set to be joining us? I find it quite worrying that even his Youtube highlights don’t seem that great – after all Youtube could probably make Bendtner look worth £30m.. and the only things I’ve read about him by people who watch him regularly say he’s good, but not great, and that he’s more of an AM/creative type rather than a natural born finisher…
What we need is a beast in front of goal. We have enough creativity. Giroud could be a fantastic second striker – he brings the ball down well, has a great touch and provides super lay-offs. But we need someone who will bang them in for fun.
Please, someone, tell me I’m wrong about Jovetic.
I know it might not be true about getting him, anyway, but in the mean time I’d like to know some more.
I have never had the privilege to attend a game at Highbury,nor at the Ems like so many of you but one thought struck me. I regularly attend church (another form of worship) and have noticed that, aside from the general aging of the attendees, there are many who will come to our congregation because the service is shorter, and they will often arrive late and leave as soon as the priest signs off, so to speak:) As an NASL official, I was in the Olympic Stadium in my home city and it was a phenomenal experience. 70,000 crazed fans watching our home team battle fiercely with their NASL rivals. It was the game that made the difference, not just the stadium or the fans. The tension was palpable and at the end, when our home team lost by a penalty, 20,000 fans went ballistic….it wasn’t fun for the officials BUT it was great for the atmosphere and the next game, the attendance had doubled.
Nothing wrong with the Emirates. In fact it’s magnificent ..EVERYTHING wrong with those that fill it. Even on Sunday, our most important game of the season, thousands left early. It’s painful for those of us who are passionate in our support, but we have to accept the fact that in every sense we have easily the worst, and
most ignorant fans in the country.
martin,
I understand your frustration, but you must not damn all the fans on the basis of the behaviour of some.
In any event, at evening games, some of those fans living outside London probably have little choice but to leave early, and let’s face it, those evening games are not there for the benefit of the fans who buy expensive tickets to attend the Emirates to see their team — no, no, they are there because the times of those games are fixed by Sky, for the fans sitting at home watching on TV.
I only ever went to Highbury once and that was for Keowns testimonial. I think it is impossible to recreate almost 100 years of history and we had to move. I wonder if the fans of clubs like Southampton, Millwall, Middlesborough or Bolton (all relegated as someone mentioned) have the same feelings.
If the spuds or bindippers move they will be massively in the shit.#
I’ve never left early but I only live 3 stops away on the Victoria line
Spuds have announced their plans…..yesterday in fact…..I thought the news agencies had mistook 1st May for 1st April
http://www.haringeyindependent.co.uk/news/tottenhamhotspurstadiumnews/10389848.Council_calls_for_views_on_redevelopment_around_Spurs_stadium/
The sad fact of life is even on an unbuilt stadium at the top of the covers they have drawn in large letters NAMING RIGHTS that can be seen on Spuds own website from last year, no way am I sullying this site with a link to the N17’s cretins website, funnier is the leafy green walkways they are going to create according to link above..in Tottenham….yeah right!
Belting post, BR.
I remember sitting with my Dad in the West Stand at Highbury when I was young and the moaning was very obvious even then.
Perhaps it’s the sitting down which does it. You become an armchair viewer but at the game. Nick Hornby in Fever Pitch says the same thing.
The East and West Stand at Highbury never made that much noise except for big games (except for that little corner of the East Stand adjacent to the North Bank where the bloke that started the singing always stood up when he started a song).
The atmosphere is better at away games, partly because everyone stands throughout. Though you still get some who feel entitled to a comfortable victory in every game.
I still wonder why it’s the Emirates that gets blamed. Highbury all-seater wasn’t called the library for no reason.
The design of the Emirates winds me up for the reason Micky highlighted, you’re just too far from the pitch.
Tootenham is the ar*e end of the universe and the clientele reflect that. 🙂
They’re going to love the gentrification of their club. 🙂
Haha – that pic is great GiE
If I knew how to doctor images I would add in some touches of N17 reality – you know, smoke looming over the houses from the riots; that kid on the bike would be clutching the handbag he’s just snatched; the leafy trees would be half ripped down by the gormless denizens of that benighted realm; the grass would be swamp, like the rest of the place…
Some fine comments today.
RA. I know you look at things differently to me but my point is that I never felt like a customer pre-Emirates. Of course I was a customer, but there was not the out and out commercialism of today.
When I first went to AFCt here was a small shop under the Clock End where scarves and rosettes were sold and it was run by Jack Kelsey who had been AFC goalkeeper for decades. Can you imagine such a thing today?
hahaha i remember that geezer chas. There was also a little group, about 20 – 30 below the west lower who used to make a lot of noise.
I went past there site the other day and was realy impressed with the magnificance of the new Sainsburys. Its absolutly massive. I have not seen such beautifil architectrul design since i visited the Pantheon.
The locals are realy excited about it. The rumour is that Levy plans to trump the hospitality offered at the Grove by giving the posh seat swamp dwelling season ticket holder there own mini micro wave along with sainsbury ready made chickin tikka masala…with no chicken in it.
Oh yes, exciting times at the lane.
P.s, a few of them did try to mug me, but i fended them off by waving a carrier bag from Harrods, its like garlic to a vampire.
I remember the club shop on match days, there was a one way system from memory, and then they opened the “Superstore” at Finsbury Park which now feels as small as the shop under the Clock End used to. But then on a Matchday even the Armoury isn’t big enough to avoid gridlock when browsing to pick up a scarf or something.
There are still traditions that our club holds on to, as far as I am aware you can’t buy the Mascot appearance, that’s still a lucky draw amongst Junior Gunners (my brother was lucky enough). The staff are very much family, look at the lists of Akers in the kit room, and physios/masseurs who are related. Maybe it holds us back but I’m glad we retain some of these values of what made us special.
get in there Basel!! one more goal like that please!!
Thank you for the lovely post Raddy. I never thought about the better clientele frequenting the Ems, but you are right. There are more and more posh individuals sitting quietly and leaving before the end. And the tourists! How many tickets get allocated to travel agents, a lot I’d say.
Funny enough I mentioned Bayern’s new stadium – the Allianze arena. A magnificent object, delivered on time and within the budget in 2005 (like the Ems), didn’t break BM’s bank balance and deprived them of trophies. It is always full on match days, but tickets are cheaper. Bayern are 4th richest football club in the world. How the feck do they do it?? Can somebody (preferably GiE) explain this to me?
Fair play to Benitez. Taking that load of prima donnas to a European Final.
Wonder what the fickle Chavs think of him now.
they probably still hate him
Chelsea are Champions League rejects relegated into a Mickey Mouse Tournament.
PT, you’ve finally said something I agree with. Well done.
PT?
Morning all.
Pet troll
On the leaving early from games, there is no excuse for anyone when it’s a 3pm Saturday KO. You s
Ooops
You simply never see this level of exodus at other grounds unless the home side are 3 down. We see it all the time.
Pet Troll ROLF
Post sent
Just seen GiE’s link to Spuds Stadium.
Surprise, surprise. Oval. Cheap tin. Glass, because people think that looks cool and modern, and an Emirates style swooshy shaped top.
Stadiums designed by Architectural Sixth Formers near you 🙂
In the old days if you blinked, you missed the goal.
There were no replays, most games weren’t televised.
Unless you witnessed it there and then live, you would never ever see it.
There was some film of a cup final (can’t remember which) where it was reported that a penalty had gone wide of the goal but in fact the keeper saved it.
Can you imagine that happening these days when each offside decision is examined in minute detail seconds after an incident and it’s categorically stated that the linesman was wrong even though he only had his eyes to make a judgement?
Nowadays the fans think, ‘I’ll watch the goals when I get in on sky or youtube’. Why they pay for the live experience is anyone’s guess as they’re not bothered about it at all.
Stadiums are bound to be oval-shaped, aren’t they?
I suppose you could get the same number of people in with four flat sides and just go up higher. Old Cowshed style.
The original images suggested the terraces would be close to the pitch in a rectangle. I hope they’re wrong.
Chas
That looks a whole lot more imposing than our gaff.
I also think that if you are sitting 3.2 miles from the pitch, it is so much easier to sneak out early as you don’t think anyone will notice!
Right, that’s the end of me slagging off The Emirates.
Morning All,
Imagine all those lillywhite muppets in one place! 30,000 drooling miscreants each with their “social assistant”.
Let us go back into the mists of time when the Twin Towers meant Wembley Stadium. It was a bowl and it was LOUD. The Wembley Roar was world famous …. point being, it is the fans not the stadium.
(disappointed not to take Micky’s record with this post)
Good Morning AA, 🙂
Hi BR 🙂
Thanks for your response last night.
I think I get it now.
I was taking you too literally, when you referred to business, whereas you were speaking from the heart about the feeling that fans had lost out in the transfer to the huge impersonal Ems from the intimacy of Highbury, and the quest for a more ‘businesslike’ and clinical search for the big bucks to compete in the modern football environment.
[May not be your words, but I think it explains the misunderstanding between us, I hope] 🙂
Chas,
Highbury was a pretty square stadium — physically.
The Nou Camp is much bigger than the Ems, but they have built it with more vertical sides making it still very ‘close’ to the pitch for all their fans.
RA. Precisely 🙂
Morning all
There is no point in me expressing an opinion on here as apart from Norfolk Goonrt to an extent I am labelled a doomer.
No giroud for the next two matches, Podolski is carrying an injury which needs an operation in the Summer, Diaby is finished,Rosicky has to be nursed back and regardless if he plays well is subbed, The Ox according to AW isn’#t good enough to start regularly, Fabianski is out for the season and out of contract as is Arshavin who I really wanted to be successful, Vermaelen has gone from great to the subs bench in one season, Sagna seems to have lost it completely and is reported to be on his way, Walcott will never make a central striker,Gervinho is a waste of space and just can’#t shoot, Ramsey has now found his rightful position but considering the chances he gets,never scors, we have numerous players on loan no one wants to buy, Mannone isn’t good enough to be a back up, Jenkinson has improved but AW won’t drop Sagna, Meresacker (I was wrong) has been a good influence despite being slow, Carzola is a class player and will improve and is our leading goal scorer, Arteta has not had the influence this season,Kos is great and a huge asset and AW needs to be very careful how and when he plays Jack as he is our most precious commodity.
Who cares about Spurs but I still think we have a real fight on our hands to get fourth and wouldn’t be surprised if we lost to QPR who now they are relegated will have less pressure on them than us.
I have not enjoyed this season apart from a handful of games and if we are going to achieve top 4 next season there needs to be a massive clear out and injection of substantial cash,and knowing the little that I know of kroenke,it doesn’t bode well.
my friends wakle up and smell the coffee we are in for a might rocky ride.
Couple of things on distance from pitch thing, isn’t that UEFA imposed? Remember when you watch teams in their old stadiums play in CL thy have to have betting on first few rows of seating….used to be case at Highbury from memory? Must admit I’ve never seen it at OT, and can’t remember last time I’ve seen it so maybe rules have been relaxed?
Also the stadium design have a lot of consideration to pitch up keep, hence bowl shape and clear backs of the upper tier etc. look at how much trouble United have keeping their pitch playable, think they resurface at least once a season.
Kelsey I agree we are in for 3 games of high drama, I predict a few heart attacks between now and seasons end
kelsey. You a doomer? Never 🙂 🙂
If football had a guaranteed result I wouldn’t want to watch it, so the end of season struggle is what I am looking forward to. Excitement all the way and sure to have it’s up and downs.
Morning Kelsey, 🙂
Are you back and settled?
You are missed when you are not on AA, and your dose of realism is the spice to liven things up — even if you are a doomer!! 😀
[Just kidding!] 🙂
RA
realism exactly 🙂
Yes i am back but moving again over the weekend.
Excellent post Raddy considering you did it ad hoc. I agree the atmosphere is not what Highbury was but at the same time see the need for the Emirates move if we want to remain competitive in the long term. I can only hope that success is around the corner and that the atmosphere at the Ems changes for the better.
I’m probably too late to join in on this one, and a ‘new post’ message will probably show up before I’m done typing but here goes..
I disagree that the new stadium doesn’t feel like home. It in no way compares to Highbury (I’ve never seen a game there, but did take the tour) and even now, when I watch footage of old matches, or when I go outside Highbury, I feel like it’s very much a part of me. That won’t change.
Now with the Emirates (or the Grove if you prefer), I’ve been 5 times (not counting the pre season Emirates Cup). One of those times was the first of the 5pur2. When that game ended, (I was way back in the North bank upper) while leaving, I was slowly walking down, and I stopped at the steps and just looked over the ground. And I thought… “Home” It feels like Arsenal’s home to me. A trophy of some kind would solidify it, but the atmosphere at the 3-0 Milan game was special, and I think games like that only help make it better.
As for the moaning fans bit being because of the club becoming more of a business. I disagree. But that’s because if the club had nevr become as global a business, I would never have been a fan. I’ve only seen Arsene Wenger in charge of Arsenal, saw the magnificent teams of the late 90s and early 2000s (I hate the term noughties), and I saw us transition into a new stadium, planning for a better independent future. I would never moan about Arsenal because we didn’t win trophies. I would never ever moan at a match. I’m also not sure the noveau riche fans are to solely blame for the poor atmosphere. I suspect, a lot of the older fans feel a little disenfranchised because the club has grown and as a result, they feel less important. Coupled with the low attention spans, and the media assault on the lack of trophies front (or even ticket pricing front) makes people feel as if they ‘deserve’ better. Me? I got exactly the team I deserve and I couldn’t be happier.
A couple of other points. I am still not sure of this is true, but I recall that when the stadium was announced, there was a possibility of expanding the capacity to 80,000. Maybe that explains the distance of the crowd from the pitch.
Evonne,
Bayern Munich share their stadium with 1860 Munich. They both co-owned it until 2006, until Bayern bought the 50% shareholding from 1860munich for 11m euros. I’m guessing the cost of construction was shared between the two clubs, and perhaps even the government. The burden of debt on them was definitely lower than ours though.
BR,
You have hit the nail on the head. If football was predictable, even your own team winning every game, it would be a turnoff.
The sheer exhilaration of winning contrasted with the desolation of defeat, and just not knowing which will happen — is what makes us all footieholics! 🙂
Morning all, and many thanks to Micky for today’s ……
…. New post ……..
That is an interesting take on Randy’s Post, and I think has valid points.
There is a difference in perspective tho’ that you alluded to in passing.
The ‘new’ global fan who may have seen the physical entity of Highbury stadium but never experienced the week on week, year on year games that were played there, would, of course, not comprehend the sense of loss of those who did.
Not that it belittles the global fans experience and belonging. It is just different — experience is the key here.
I do not moan as such, either at losing sometimes, but I have to say that the moments of winning trophies is an ecstasy that demands more. For me, I am not a ‘placid’ fan happy to accept the status quo — no, I want to win every competition that we enter.
I am not better or worse than any other fan, just that I want to win — but if we give our all and do not achieve a trophy then it is onwards to the next competition — to win!! 😀
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