According to many the reason we will not win the title is due to a lack of squad depth. Can this really be true? Is it my imagination or do we not have the best squad for a very long time – perhaps ever?
So let’s look at who is behind the first 11 ……
Against Chelsea we had a bench with the current French International centre forward, the Welsh Captain, a current England winger, a German with almost 100 caps, a 19 y.o established England player who continually gets rave reviews, a Brazilian International defender and a Swiss CH with 33 caps. Oh, and a goalkeeper who is still in pampers.
Add to that the reserves and our injured players: The midfield great white hope of England, the Czech national captain, an ex Russian captain, the current Moroccan captain, one of the best right backs in the world, the Polish no.2 keeper, a few outstanding youngsters in Coquelin, Frimpong, Jenkinson …… and Squillaci.
That is our 2012/13 squad.
When looking for comparisons, why not compare with the best …… The Invincibles. That team had an exceptional first eleven, this is indisputable. But squad?
Behind Messrs Henry, Campbell etc were:
In defence:
An ageing Martin Keown (38yo), Pascal Cygan, a very young Clichy (18 yo), Justin Hoyte (19 yo), our bench GK was Graham Stack!
Compare with Fabianski, Jenks, BFG, JD and Santos.
You are already getting a feeling as to where this is going!!
In midfield:
Invincibles – Parlour (31 yo), Edu and Bentley, That’s it.
AFC 2012. Ramsey, Arshavin, Wilshere, Rosicky, Frimps, Le Coq.
Attack:
Invincibles – Kanu (who is apparently 36 this year !!), Reyes, Aladiere, and a very grumpy Wiltord who only started 8 games.
AFC 2012: Walcott, Chamakh, Giroud, Ox.
The first thing which strikes me is how physically strong the Invincibles first team were; 10 players played over 30 PL games through the season. Kanu got just 3 starts. Reyes 7 and Keown 3.
Secondly, the massive difference in the quality of the bench compared to the first team in 2004.
You can decide how many of the “04 squad members would make our bench today, but I think very few. Is it true we have a thin squad? Clearly not, it is a fiction put about by people who know nothing about The Arsenal other than what they watch on Match of the Day.
(for comparison’s sake all the Invincibles started at least one PL game).
Written by Big Raddy
Arsenal News 24/7
arsenalarsenal.net 
Great post, and the fact that I agree so strongly is also quite annoying. Here’s why: our bench was way too strong against Chelsea, and had at least two of them started, I’m sure we would have won.
I think the true value and accuracy of what you say will only be realized come May, as it is over the whole seaon that squad quality really shows.
Before I go, one question over the rather fuzzy GiE Widget. There appear to be columns about Swingers and Anal Points. Just curious, that’s all.
Lady luck always has a way of spoiling good things, I hope this isn’t one of them 😦
Times have changed though in that the quality of the opposition has also improved drastically.Then it was man u and arsenal,but now man city,chelsea etc are also worthwhile competitors.
Agree and disagree… Certainly our bench is stronger now than it was 9 years ago but the game has changed completlely since then with the injection of the petro dollars at Chelski and Middle Eastlands. To gauge the strength of our squad you have to look at those teams around us and ahead of us to determine if it’s good enough.
The entire PL from top to bottom is better now than it was then. One or two injuries back in 04 and the XI that would take the pitch would still be strong enough to take an Everton or Newcastle if not at ManUSA. Today that may not be the case. The margins are finer and it’s easier to drop points anywhere even with a full strength First XI.
I think our bench is strong but I am disappointed because I feel it could and should be much stronger especially in a few key positions. Last year if Song went down, Arteta could play that role, this year of Arteta goes down we have to rely on Coquelin. Nothing against him I think he’s a great prospect but it’s a clear step down in quality.
I think when you hear Wenger himself question his own decision to gamble on the fitness of Diaby for a season and concede there’s no one else in the squad with the same physical presence. Yes Arsene that is an unesessary gamble and could quite easily back fire (perhaps it already has as we lost our way in the Chelsea game when he went off injured) Few Gooners are foolish enough to expect or demand you go out and sign Yaya Touré but adding a squad player even one we’ve never heard of before who can provide that physical presence when needed would be safer.
Similar story up front, we’ve gone from having Adebayor, RVP, Eduardo and Bendtner in 08 to having Giroud and Chamack as the only recognised out and out strikers…. Again I like Giroud I think he will be great for us but Chamack is a waste of skin and I ask myself why are we relying on Gervinho to play in that position. He’s been OK but surely there are better options out there that wouldn’t cost the earth….
What do you think when you analyse squad depth from today’s point of view…?
Great stuff.
Let’s hope for the fitness of the new boys, Arteta, Mert etc, so that we can get a great understanding on the pitch, plus competition off the bench.
One minor thing – wasn’t a very young Fabregas on the bench? And Jeffers and Pennant also available? Not saying these are as strong as Wilshere, the Ox or even Miyaichi.
Well I was thinking how I would respond to your really good Post, Big Randy, when I happened across Disco Stu’s comment at 10:19 and he actually pretty much says it as I would have.
In brief, our squad is very good, and much better than it has been for quite a while, but, in context, other EPL clubs have upped their game too and there are now good quality players throughout the league, probably as a result of the Sky sponsorship monies as well as the obscene billionaire sponsored toy clubs.
Sorry very busy, but that is a really good comment by DiscoStu.
Great discussion starter Raddy and I think few can argue that our current support players are better quality than those in 2004.
Morning Disco Stu, fine comment as others have observed.
Wenger has always been a gambler (well at least since we moved to the Ems). The majority of his gambles have failed to pay off. There was a definite change in policy with the new players brought in over the summer – they don’t have the sell-on value of the 17-23 year olds we’d have gone for in previous seasons.
It appears we are in for a TV windfall as of next season but that money wll be spread amongst all the prem teams so doesn’t give us an advantage particularly.
I think we should be able to spend £25m on a top striker if the right players is available so we are about to find out whether AW’s gambles were due to his financial prudence – if the money is there he will spend it and gamble less?
I think the money we paid for Wiltord and Reyes suggests that in the past certainly he wasn’t afraid to spend if he thought the player was worth the money.
Fab post BR
as already covered, a diff game back then, the game slower and not as big a demand on a players fitness as it is now.
I cannot fathom how Kanu is still 36, a touch of peter pan here.
Have a great day everybody.
DiscoStu. Very good point. I only wished to make a point off discussion not pretend that all is rosy in the garden-.
However …… we do have strong alrnatives all over the pitch. At CB I believe we have 2 replacements who are as good as anyone’s (inc Chavs). At FB the same.
Your choice of Arteta is the obvious weak link, though I believe that should MA get injured we will play a different formation and not have a covering DM (as we played last season). As you say, we have no-one in the squad capable of playing MA’s game.
As to Diaby. Yes, it was ill-advised to rely upon Diaby, but we have JW coming back and Ramsey is progressing (AR is only 2″ shorter than VD).
Upfront we have a far more flexible attack than in previous years. We have a choice of 4 players who want to play centrally.
There is much to discuss: For example, how do we get a bench like Chelsea’s without offering commensurate financial rewards?
Lastly, the post wasn’t comparing us with other teams, it was commenting upon a statements made by ex-players about the fragility of our squad, which are mis-informed.
p.s. I didn’t want to be defensive about the post and yet couldn’t have been more defensive ;-(
Its true this present squad have potential but they are four(4)players away in the goal, defence, midfield and attack away from being the GREAT Gunners we all dream about. Now no Squilacci, Chamakh and. Fabianski in the equation. Frimpong needs some refinement.
This present squad can do big things if four quality players across all departments are added. This excludes Squillaci, Chamakh, Djorou and Fabianski. Frimpong needs refinement.
Randy,
No need to be defensive because your Post did exactly what was intended — a good discussion starter. 🙂
With regard to the respective heights of Rambo and Diaby, the first is 6′ tall and the latter 6’4″ — very acceptable for their respective roles!
I do not understand the concern in MF. Right now, no-one can tell me who will be our starting MF and how we fit JW in .
JW, Cazorla, Arteta? I guess so, but that being the case why worry about the fitness of Diaby? And what of the Ox?
This is not black and white. I am a great advocate of Ramsey who IMO will become a vital player for AFC, but I cannot see where he fits into the team if JW, O-C, Diaby are ahead of him ….. and that is without the sublime skills of Tomasz Rosicky.
And don’t talk to me of rotation. In the PL we have to play our strongest 11, game in game out.
RA. lol. In my last post, I had Ramsey down as a “short player” and was corrected. Now I have him as a bigger player and am corrected again!!
Me bad.
BR
When is 25 million pound player not a 25 million pound player?
When Chelsea or City show some interest in buying him, then he becomes a 35 million pound player.
Haha, BR, I didn’t ‘correct’ you. I was just miffed that three chaps who are all quite a bit taller than me, were classified as short. 🙂
Nice post.
10 players played over 30 games each. Astonishing.
We only have to believe in our team and forget about the bias and viisionless analysts who think man united has a better squad than us.
I know this squad is very very good. But i dont think we can compare the invincibles to this squad. Fistly our defence is no way near as good. And we have lost a game already and therefore we are not invincibles.
An add-on to the comparison of 03/04’s Invincibles & current 12/13 footballing squad: The coaching staff – they got to be credited as well.
03/04:
Manager – AW
Asst M*- Pat Rice (Competent right-hand man)
1st team coach* – Boro Primorac
GK coach – Gerry Peyton
Fitness coach – Tony Colbert
Physio* – Gary Lewin (Excellent physio. Went on to become England’s Snr team physio)
Club Doctor* – Ian Beasley (Went on to become England’s Snr team doctor & Head of England Medical Services)
Chief scout – Steve Rowley
12/13:
Manager – AW
Asst M* – Steve Bould (Defensive master)
1st team coach(es)* – Boro Primorac, Neil Banfield
GK coach – Gerry Peyton
Fitness coach – Tony Colbert
Physio* – Colin Lewin (Gary’s cousin, competent physio)
Club Doctor* – Gary O’Driscoll (former official doctor for Ireland’s rugby team; involved in the establishment of the medical facility at the training ground)
Chief scout – Steve Rowley
*Changes to Asst M, 1st team coaches, Physio(s), Club Doctor.
Both Asst M(s) are comparable in their prime; we get an additional 1st team coach in 12/13; hysio & club doctor – the 03/04 pairing might have a slight edge.
==================================================
If we should lose Mikel Arteta for long term (touch wood), we are likely to switch the team dynamics & core focus from technical midfield to defence
(i.e. playing our 3 quality CBs – Vermaelen, Mertesacker, Koscielny in 3-4-1-2/3-4-3/3-5-2 formation, b/w Coquelin/Ramsey/Frimpong/Diaby/Wilshere taking the 2xCM roles, 2 WB/WMs in Jenkinson/Gibbs/Sagna/Santos lending their weight in midfield from wide, Cazorla/Rosicky as the AM, a 1xCentreForward & 1xSideForward pairing upfront between Giroud/Podolski/Gervinho/Walcott/AoC).
They should help us with more control in team defence while relying on the individual brilliance of the front 3 (AM, SF & CF) with support from our WBs/WMs to get a couple of goals on open play (or having 3 CBs options to target on set pieces).
BR;
Yes our squad is stronger than that of the invincibles but as others have pointed out our competetitors benches have become both stonger and deeper than ours.
Even given that today’s team has more depth than the invincibles our curent bench is still very worrysome.
Szczensey is out for six plus weeks, Giroud and Chamakh are our main strikers – is either Mannone or Giroud get a long term injury our bench would suddenly become woefully weak. We would be left relying on Chamakh and Shea —- perish the thought……..
The invincible played well coz of cohesion.they knew each other wel.played together most of the games.PIRES could know where to find Henry without necesarily lookin.Berkamp could split any defence in the EPL.Thats the diference.
Our squad is stronger..but our star players are not.. we win titles by the performances of the stars. TH14, Pires, Ljundberg, Sol, Lehmann, Cole… they all shone. Our stars could match them but those above were seasoned EPL players while Giroud, Podolski, Sanzola are not. IF … IF… we can keep this team together for 2-3 seasons then I see them being unbeatable.
oops I mean Carzola… and also I meant Pod, etc are still adjusting..lets give them a full year.
where is fabianski by the way?
GIE;
What data are you using to create “Swing Projection” & “Cumulative Projection”?
Hi all
I’m sorry I didn’t have time this morning to give you a write-up on last night’s AST meeting. I’ll post the link to their report in a while when I find it.
We still need posts everyone, as it stands we have nothing for tomorrow ………
Hi GN5, if I could answer your question @ 3:17 on GiE’s behalf.
I asked a similar question regarding his chart and this was his repy:
“First I look at result this season against result this season. The points difference is the Gain/Loss.
West Ham, Southampton and Reading have replaced Blackburn, Bolton and Wolves respectively.
Hence we gained 3 points on Saturday compared to Blackburn Away last season. We lost 1 point by losing at home to Chelsea.
The first prediction is the swingometer, points gained/lost this season divided by points won from the same games last season multiplied by points won from rest of games last season added to points won this season.
So if we won 15 points from game last year and had gained 5 points this season we would be up by 33% if in the remaining games we had scored 60 points the swing predicts we would make 80 points therefore the prediction for the complete season would be 100 points.
The second prediction (cumulative) is more basic. Points won this season + points won from remaining games last season.
Final column is the max available points (points this season + number of games remaining multiplied by 3)”
Hi all, thanks for the post Big Dandy, always good to see you excercise your post-writing muscles outside of the constraints of a pre match.
Peachy, I’ll put a post in drafts, albeit a 10 minute special like Mdi89’s yesterday, although it’s nowhere near as funny.
Hi Chary
Way off subject here: have you noticed in Anger Management that one of the actors in Charlie’s group theropy is the spitting image of Lionel Messi, just a few pounds heavier?
A day late and a dollar short comes my reply from yesterdays blog.
I love the idea of a begging Rasper, and a good Peachganging sounds like a fun day out! However another little article from me is gonna have to be put on hold till i can make it back to reality. I´m still in La La Land you see otherwise known as disney del sol or the costa del crime. You pays your money and takes your choice as to what you want to call it? I´m net less on a boat, I´m often legless on the same but thats another storey 🙂
I drag myself into port watch our games and I watched El Classico of course. (I thought I was watching our defending or lack of it anyone)?
When we win I stagger home happy as larry having partaken of too much of the red stuff, when we don´t I try to drowned my sorrows in too much of the red stuff! But stagger home more pissed off than pissed (no matter how much I consume) with a horrible disposition. Oh its a rum life being a netless Gooner on a boat 🙂
Oh yeah London, that’s Nolan isn’t it ? I thought so at the time too; he sit’s next to the feisty young starlet. Did you notice how Charlie Sheen seems to have gained some pounds too ?
Try to enter this after dinner coz coming in from the sea hunger can´t wait great post and good comments from disco stu and others
Neamman. No argument there, no team was or is as good as The Invincibles, but the players in the background were poor. Good luck with injuries was one of the reasons we stayed unbeaten.
Re: Fabregas. He was in the squad but didn’t start a first team game in 03-04.
Fine Post Big Radish
I agree – our bench is MUCH stronger than what we had at the time of the Invincibles (although others are right to point out that it needs to be, given the improved level of competition).
A few commenters seem to be missing the point and think that you are comparing the current team with the 2004 vintage. Our first 11 back then was stronger than today’s (or at least than today’s is at this stage of its development).
But success breeds legends – and if the current crop succeed they will take their places in the Pantheon.
I’ve had fun catching up on some great Posts and comments.
A typical BR pre-match, an absolutely top notch match report from Chas and a side-splitter from Micky – all great reads.
I managed to see the goals late on Sunday but needed Chas’s report to tell me what really went on.
Finally last night I was able to watch the whole match on Arsenal Player.
Peaches
One in the bomb bay.
Very good post Raddy
Like a few have said, everyone has got stronger.
Now as we`re comparing, this is where I might upset a few…… hehehe.
I am very proud of our achievement in 2004 ( 90 points ), but…. It`s about points and the Chavs got 95 points in 2005 and 91 in 2006, Manscum got 91 in 2000, so imo they were better !. Calm down and wipe your tea off your clothes and screen ! hahaha.
And I dont want a contract put out on me !.
PS
Before you start frantically typing, yes I know about the money spent ! 😆
RL. Comes back to the recent discussion about heroes. Can a player become a legend without having won silverware?
I can’t think of anyone (perhaps Fabregas) which shows that to become a club legend it is necessary to have 10 other fine players.
I like the word “Pantheon”. Well played sir.
Hi Rocky,
Were the autumn colours at their magnificent best?
Raddy,
Pantheon is a Greek Shed
THE REPLY BELOW IS ONLY MY OPINION RELATED WITH MY DEEPEST RESPECTS TO OTHERS VIEWS
I read this post this morning, then wrote a reply and immedietely deleted it as i wanted to give it more thought as well as the other replys, The Invincibles WERE the best ever starting eleven, better than anything then, before or scince. The bench point is well argued and TRUE.
However some of the replies saying the league as a whole is stronger now than it used to be….i can not agree with this.
True city and chelsea have invested heavily, however I think (my opinion) is that both Arsenal and Man Ure are both no where as strong as they were back when arsenal were invincible.
That is why both were to the top of the table.
I am afraid the sad truth is the league has not progressed at all.
The clinching argument is as folows: If you put either the Invincibles or the Man Ure team of that time in this current crop of teams their is no doubt in my mind that they would run away with the league.
How was the walk in the woods? Spectacular I expect.
In my hippy days I spent a week living in a tepee during the Fall in New England. It was an unforgettable experience though there are memory blanks due to the type of leaf used to warm us in the evenings.
That made me think Gonerjake, and I think you have a point. The Utd team to which you refer were indded better than last seasons’ mob, which only narrowly lost the league at the final hurdle.
Point well made Sir.
Tepee=Indian Pantheon
Goonerjake. A very interesting insight.
We will never know whether the PL is stronger or not. My impression is that PV4 would have eaten YaYa or Hazard, and TH14 was unstoppable as he would be today..
On reflection I agree with you…..
Smokehouse = Devonish Pantheon
Rockydiddle, 🙂
“Giant Radish” I cannot tell you how much I have wanted to say that, but have not had the cojones!! 🙂
Giant Daddy was talking about relative player heights, earlier, and thinking on it, I am taken about how public perception can often be quite different to the facts.
For example, Le Coq is often put forward as a ‘Beast’, as is PingPong, whereas the facts of the matter are that each of them measures a princely 5′ 10″, from flat foot to the zenith azimuth of their crewcuts, which is fine, but perhaps does not resonate with the idea that they qualify as ‘Beasts’.
In fact, that other ‘Beast’ muted as a potential Arsenal ‘enforcer’ M’Vila is 6′ tall, which is also not to be sneezed at but is he a ‘Beast’? really?
I do not want to appear ‘heightist’ 🙂 but perceptions, I suppose, is not all it is cracked up to be, maybe? 🙂
Evening all. A fine post Raddy, I am actually surprised we haven’t seen more complaint today. Wenger himself claimed a few seasons back that he had his best squad ever and was rubbished by all and sundry.
Yes it is probably a deeper squad, I’m not even sure you mentioned Szczesny in the injured squad, unless he was the Polish No2 to who you referred in which case you missed out Fabianski. But apart from being a picky bugger that I am, the problem is how good the first XI, but then can anyone, the current champions of Europe or England claim to have as good a first XI as our Invincibles? We were very very lucky to witness that team in action together.
And just a reminder to all those “Wenger can’t buy defenders” naysayers have a look at that Invincibles team.
Outhouse = Cornish Pantheon
Hello Micky and BR 🙂
The leaves were wonderful in Vermont.
We had some mighty hikes and managed to got lost in the woods.
At one point (while lost, with dusk falling and the bears growling all around us) we came across a large, weird, ramshackle wooden teepee a little way off the trail. Perhaps, BR, there are still traces of your stay in New England…
Actually, we didn’t hear (or see) any bears, but my nine year old son was getting nervous.
Rightly so. If a bear had come I would have used him as bait to cover our getaway 🙂
Raddy 🙂
GIE. The facts speak for themselves. There can be no argument – the players behind the first team are better now than in ’04.
I assumed TPIG was our first choice GK and thus didn’t mention him. To have Vito as 3rd choice is a luxury….. I have no idea who was the 3rd GK in 03-04
I find children are excellent bear – bait. They also work with big cats and alligators.
Of course a player can be a legend without winning anything Mat Le Tiss at southhampton immediatly springs to mind. For us recently I guess your right BR Cesc would come closest even though he did manage to captured an FA cup in 04, I wouldn´t say that, that little triumph summed up his time with us and if he hadn´t got his hands on an FA cup winners medal would that have mattered?
Ah… GiE – Just the man!
When I was watching the WHam game I noted the incident in which Man One came for the ball and was beaten in the air by Carroll, whose header did not – fortunately – bounce into an empty net.
Some of the reports I read seemed to categorise this as a Vito mistake. But I noticed that there were no defenders challenging Carroll, and if Don Vito had stayed on his line the big Geordie would have had a free header which, had it gone in, would probably have led to Vito getting slaughtered (along with our CBs, who had given Carroll the freedom of the penalty area).
So my question is… was Vito right to come, even though he was second favourite to get the ball? Or should he have stayed on his line?
Only five players were allowed on the bench until 2008-9.
Does that mean the 2012/13 bench must be stronger?
Or is it a case of less is more?
GIE,
We all know it was David Dein who bought Lauren, Campbell and Toure and that it was Steve Coppell who had Cole on loan at Palace that turned him into a decent left back.
Redders
You raise an interesting question: can you be “short” and still be a “beast”.
There have been quite a few defensive MF “beasts” who have been short of stature.
David Batty springs to mind… and Didier Deschamps. Johnny Giles. There must be others…
Sharkey suggested Usmanov at centre back yesterday.
He would be a beast at the heart of our defence. 🙂
Diaby is hardly a beast either, but his height is useful when defending free-kicks and corners.
Peter Storey was 5′ 9″
Chas
Is this to be ROLF’d at:
“Only five players were allowed on the bench until 2008-9.
Does that mean the 2012/13 bench must be stronger?”
Thicker timber at the very least I reckon
Micky,
It was like when the spuds said their bench was stronger when Huddlestone was sat on it. 🙂
Rocky,
I think he was definately right to come for the ball. Really, he had no option
Well though no one will really be interested I am just under 6 foot tall but only a 30 inside leg 🙂 I was a beast in my time .Ah memories.
Good, it was a ROLF’ER
kelsey
Long body short legs?
In Westerns you would be called a “low down bum” 🙂
I noticed LB talking earlier about 25 and 35 million pound players and I thought, ” this obesity problem is getting out of hand , what now , the untapped market of Fat American kids ! “.
RL lol
GLIC
Lol
GLiC
Now THAT’S when you need a stronger bench 🙂
I`m mystified by kelsey`s smiley avartar, I thought with such short legs, his picture would be one of excruciating pain as he trod on his own Hampton !.
Rocky in response to your 6:46pm you are probably right in that he is damned if he does and damned if he doesn’t.
However, you can probably count on one hand the amount of headers scored from around the penalty spot in open play. Whereas you’d lose count quite quickly of the goals scored when the keeper clutches thin air. Carroll is a big man with a very good leap, and has perfected the art of meeting the ball at the highest possible point. However Mannone is 6ft 2 should wiki be believed, with arms he should be able to claim the ball at at least 2ft over his head. So the problem he has is not reaching the ball at the highest possible point, he had as much run up so should be taking the ball before it reaches Carroll.
Furthermore bad keepers have a habit of getting under the ball and jumping backwards, the best cross claimers wait as long as possible before making their run and leap towards the ball.
Team Arsenal´s current “Arsenal” is very strong we´ve got an abundance of dry powder in the keg! I also agree the prem since the petrol dollars arrived has moved on, before the oily Abromovitch arrived it was either SAF´s Manu´er or us, OK Rovers bought a single title in there somewhere but we were the only real competition for SAF´s boys and we were still the poor southern neighbours compared to the Manx mob. Rio cost them more than our most expensive signing, and incredibly back then he was a defender. The posts were moved massively by the Oily Oilgarch, what happened after he arrived reminds me of the Nike advert when the super stars play the African kids and they move the goals where it suits them best. I guess we are all hoping the fair play rules end up with teeth, because then it might start to return to football and not money, that decides the table in May. Great point made by Disco Stu but I´m right up there with BR this was all about the class of 03-04 standing alongside the class of 12-13. Its born out of a misconception made by certain of our old guard that we ain´t got strength in depth like we had in the invincible squad. Wrong just plain and simply wrong! I´m liking the look of us more and more, and besides I´ve never wanted to be Chelski and I certainly not a Manx!
Glic,
With such short legs, I’m surprised we don’t see just the top of Kelsey’s head
GIE
You of course have the extra advantage of catching it in a Pita bread after emptying the contents and launching from a six pack !.
GiE,
Bit like Tina did against Maradona
Yes Micky, I think I know where your coming from and if kelsey had a short torso we would see where he`s coming from !.
Cheers GiE
Although I’m not convinced he really had time to get there before Carroll…
Glic,
Are you suggesting GIE catches his own weiner in a pitta bread?
The rest of it I do not understand and probably that is best!! 🙂
Your earlier comment. 🙂
RL, you too 🙂 Low down bum, indeed!
I asked for that 😉
The average height for a man in the UK is surprisingly 5foot 8.5 inches.
But Kelsey, I bet in Spain you’re a giant among men 🙂
Rocky, mark this in your diary — I disagree with you. Yeay! 🙂
GIE is spot on, if Man One was going to come he has to take the ball and everyone else in the way. A feeble grasping at air was not conducive to a feeling of content. Sorry, Bare Man — umm Bear Man!
I saw a grizzly from 150 yards when walking in the Rockies (the only bear I have ever seen) he sniffed the air, growled and it was all I could do not to wet myself — it must’ve been someone else that farted and scared him off. My money was on Telescope Man. 🙂
Them is biiiig mothers!!!
Kelsey will be alright , as long as them Spaniards dont start playing tippy tappy with his Bowls, Juan will not be pleased !.
Rocky,
Are you saying Kelsey is a giant in Spain — and by deduction a pygmy in the UK.
I bet he is pretty big lying horizontal!! 🙂
Not to take anyone away from site, but join me on Arsenalplayer to watch ,Jack, Bacary and Pong`s comebacks. Can you think of anything else which will bring you more pleasure in just 12 mins ?
Quiete Redders, we`re talking 12 not 2 !. 🙂
Glic,
Speaking purely mathematical — stick the 12 or the 2 — how about a symmetrical 69?
According toi some reports at the AST meeting last night it was stated the club have written off the 5.5 million for Park. Over to you peaches.
Apparently we’ve written the money off because what we bought didn’t turn out to be what we thought we had bought.
We thought we had bought a park.
All we got was a floral border.
With no flowers.
You have to watch the U21`s just for Gnasher`s goal , a beauty !.
No Redders, I prefer the 96, where I get to watch MoTD and glicette gets to read a book !. 🙂
Rocky, Carrol is according to wiki 6ft3, he has a hell of a leap tho and also a uncanny ability to handle in the air like our pre match kings namesake. I’m now en route to the WC to get some soap and washing my thumb out.
Did we really pay 5.5 mil for Park?
5.5 million pounds !. We can give South Korea ,Vanessa Feltz and Fat Heather of EastEnders just under 5.5 mil, but we can through in Kerry Katona, her Jack and Danny is so large , that it`s let out to Battersea Dogs Home as temporary kennels, Hot Dogs for life !.
through = posh throw !. 🙂
LB
I guess that includes the wages in his deal (which are probably not covered by the loan deal).
Watching the WHU game. No- one told me how well we started. Suprb stuff.
Hi all
Here’s the link to the handout from last night’s meeting of the AST
http://www.arsenaltrust.org/news/latest-news/ast-analysis-of-arsenal-holdings-plc-accounts-for-year-ending-may-31-2012
I don’t know what we paid for Park but it must have been around the £5m mark as that’s what we were allowed to write off because he was so useless. Not sure how we managed to buy him in the first place and no-one seemed to know who’s decision it had been.
It’s interesting that the club feel that Park has absolutely no value at all as that is what they had to prove to HMRC. And we roll our eyes at the purchase of Squillacci 🙄
Key points from last night are that they expect that there is going to be a larger fund available to spend, about £75m they reckoned, and there was a discussion about how it will be spent. If the club manage to clear some of players that are surplus to requirements there could be large scale wage increases – and the joke is that Theo would get what he’s asking for if he holds on.
Arsenal’s adherance to FFP is going very well. Manu are best placed to comply with FFP and continue to be successful because of their commercial income stream. Even with the new naming rights and enhanced tv deal Arsenal will never be able to catch the manks. Their appeal is world-wide.
So there will be money to buy that elusive £25m player but will Arsene actually want to spend the money ……………
Nothing more Peaches?
Was it a fun evening? Etc etc
I just wrote a really long comment that got lost!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It’s kindof like being at a live blogging session Raddy, some people talking sense and others talking absolute tripe 🙂
The guys that chair the meeting are very knowledgable, definitely hail from our part of the world and stick broadly to giving out information.
There was an interesting admission from the AST in their mission statement where they say that they will not get involved with football matters but stick to their original remit to help supporters to understand the financials and be there to ensure the supporters have a say on ticket pricing and making a good gooner experience. I think in the spring they got their fingers burnt when there was a disappointing result and they asked for answers which wasn’t really their place to do. I think Ivan warned them that they were crossing a boundary and they stepped back.
I just read the AST report, peaches.
Admittedly a lot of the financial stuff goes right over my head. I glaze over where money is concerned.
I can’t help but notice all of the sly little digs in the report, though, which make me think it isn’t written from the supposed objective standpoint you’d assume would be taken.
The last line “The AST will watch this space with interest while we keep paying the most expensive ticket prices in world football” being the most obvious.
Haven’t they read GIE’s explanation of the situation? 🙂
Maybe I should write a letter to the AST!
Peaches. That seems a likely situation
The ‘day-to-day’ football business makes a loss of £31m until Arsenal’s ‘Diaby heel’ of poor commercials is resolved after 2014, yet we can buy 2 x £25m players and afford their six figure weekly wages as long as we keep ‘scraping over the line’ into the Champions League by virtue of the West Brom keeper.
There you go, that’s my summary of our current financial situation courtesy of the AST. 🙂
BR,
Were you suggesting my poor attempt at the West Ham report didn’t suggest we started the game well?
Chas. I am deeply embarassed. Another senior moment …..
My only excuse is that I have no excuse.
Really enjoyed the game. WHU had their chances but there was only one team playing quality football. Carroll is a very good player, goodness knows why only West Ham wanted him on loan, or why Liverpool let him go
Ooops, I forgot to mention the “recent wilderness seasons” “hovering round the podium” (instead of) “to one standing where trophies are handed out.”
10 players 30+ games..?? Wow…thats how you get away with having a smaller squad.
We often talk about the part that Lady Luck plays…and there’s your proof. Look at how injuries have decimated our title attempts in recent seasons.
Sometimes its cumulative injuries in one dept eg def, fb, mf etc. Other times its losing two players to injury one week before the CC Final
I also maintain that the Invincibles was a perfect storm of the necessary factors falling into line. Players at their peak, with sufficient experience of playing together, in a system that suited them..ie DB10 as half striker, our lop sided MF (Pires left, Parlour right) and as Randy shows us…luck with injuries.
Its often claimed that Arsene broke up the Invincibles too soon, but for me none of that side hit those heights of personal performance ever again…for us or anyone else.
Like I said….perfect storm. You climb Everest, then where do you go…??
Haha, BR.
I’m not sure it did.
When I go and re-watch the game I’ll be a little less nervous of the outcome and so maybe able to enjoy it more. 🙂
G’night.
I considered Ashley Cole…and whilst he’s still a great LB…I sincerely believe he has never reached the heights of his time at Arsenal.
In recent times his attacking play is on the way back up…but he has no Bobby to make him look really good
Top top quality Frothing…..
You know sometimes you read something and you think…jeez I wish I’d written that… 😉
Your new medication is clearly working
Oh and agreed re Randy widening his remit beyond PM’s. Sterling stuff
The AST infuriate me with the impression that they try and give to Arsenals support that somehow we lose money from fooball and have to sell to survive. Absolute and total bolloxs. They should be ashamed at themselves for continuing to headline losses based after amortisation of players contracts rather than emphasise the fact that before player trading and depreciation the football business makes a profit and generates cash inflow.
If i ever get to go to one of there poxy meetings i will let them have two barrels. I feel sorry for the non accountants on here that are left with the feeling that without selling we make a loss.
The simple fact is this. Before player trading and amortisation / depreciation, Arsenal make a profit from football. We are generaly a break even club in the transfer market not a selling club.
Thank you Terry
You are right, as a non accountant I would see no reason not to believe the view of the AST and for that reason I very much appreciate your explanation.
“Diaby’s heel” lol.
It’s shocking that the whole of the ‘Breakfast Club’ have gone AWOL.
Some people, Micky and Chas, have no sense of responsibility to the rest of us!
Peaches,
Did they provide nibbles?
Honestly, some people will skirt around the important issues.
Anyway, Good Morning, to the rest of the ‘I have to have a second cup of coffee’ brigade. 🙂
And where has Evonne disappeared too?
As another non-accountant I appreciate Terry’s input.
I never gave a monkey’s uncle about off field activity until AA introduced me to it’s effect upon the team.
In the past couple of years I have become proud of Arsenal financial model but in all honesty would prefer some silverware. Does that make me a glory-hunter?
Good morning
RA. Good question. PEACHES …. where is evonne?
Evonne has eloped with Herb 🙂
With all due rspect Terry that is not quite correct.Read the Swiss Ramble please which gives a very fair and full account of the club in every aspect as of the latest publish accounts.
Oh dear, my Terry man is going to be displeased with me disagreeing with him but perhaps it is in the interpretation!! 🙂
Football Income …….[a]……..: £ 235m
Less Salaries etc ……[b]……..: £(200m)
Profit before Int/Tax etc …..[a] less [b] …………. : £ 35m [A]
Less Non Cash Expenses [c] : £ (55m)
Operating (Loss) …………..[d] : £ (19m)
Interest Payable ……………[e] : £ (14m)
Property Sales/Exps ………[f] : £ 3m
Total Non Cash/property/interest etc .[c] to [f]… : £ ( 85m) [B]
Adj [Football] Loss ..[A] less [B] ………………….. : £ (30m) [C]
Add: Profit from Player Sales etc ………………… : £ 67m [D]
Adjusted Profit before tax . [C] less [D] ………… : £ 37m [E]
Less Taxation ………………………………………… . : £ ( 7m) [F]
Profit after Tax …….[E] less [F] ……………………. : £ 30m [G]
That is not an accounting presentation, but if you look at the Income or Expenses labelled [A] to [G] you will see how those poxy accountants get to their conclusions.
Arsenal made a profit [G] of £30m, and if they had NOT made a profit on player sales [D] of £67m there would have been a LOSS of £37m.
There is a Cashflow Accounting too — but I think we will steer away from that.
(I have no idea how this will appear on Word Press, so fingers crossed!!!) 🙂
Good Luck.
Also the sale of RVP and Song and whoever else, less puchases will appear in the current year’s account.
Kelsey, i have read swiss ramble.
What is not correct in what i said?. Did arsenal make an “Accounting” loss in that period?, the answer is yes. Did arsenal make a loss before player trading and amortosation? the answer is no.
Approximatly £18 million loss, why? The answer is because we went on a spending spree so for that period amortasion was exceptionaly high. In addition it looks like we wrote off £5 million for Park.
My irk is not with debating figures, not even how you interpret them. What i dont like is when some people use them as some sort of political tool to push some form of agenda or emphasise a point that does not portray the full picture.
Morning all – don’t shoot the messenger 🙂
evonne is in Poland this week.
Raddy – clearly you are a glory hunter 😉
Hi Redders, i dont disagree with your figures. The point i am making is that Arsenal do not make cash losses before transfers. That is what most people will understand.
Depreciation/amortasionand profit on player trading are accounting figures which can give a distorted picture to figures depending on the amount of assets you procure and sell in a period and the rate of depreciation you apply.
the reality is that once you take away the above factors arsenal generaly break even.
TMHT – what would you say is the full picture then?
Peaches, thank you for going to the meeting and posting the link. You should have asked me along, i would have caused a riot. hahaha.
Morning all,
The AST meeting is held at the plush offices of a firm of top accountants and there are many professional accountants at the meeting.
The AST as a body may appear to have a degree of bias but the disagreement over the figures is the mathematical equivalent of semantics (is there a word for this practice?).
What RA has written comes closest to the view of the accountants who report at the AST meetings.
That view of Arsenal’s finances is still pretty healthy so I’m not sure why everyone is getting upset over it.
Ok, hold on to your toupee terry,No need to be aggressive towards me.. I am no accountant but IMO at least for the time being, a club that regularly sells it’s prize assets for one reason or another makes the bottom line a little distorted.
I have no agenda and you know that very well.
TMHT – I know you’re an accountant so I’m going to be careful how I phrase what I say but surely the bottom line and what is available to be spent is just as important as how the accountants get there.
What the AST have been critical of is the commercial income which is very poor compared to other big clubs. If we had another £50m coming in from sponsorship we wouldn’t have to tighten our belts over the last seven years. Do you agree that that is the case?
The full picture cannot be assertained over a 12 month period Peaches.
My summary would be that without player trading and amortasion / deprecaition the club, over the last several years would break even.
They have made surpluses during this period in the transfer market leading to surplus cash reserves. The question people shouldbe asking is why they are so conservitive with these surplus funds, not wether the club is breaking even, it is.
exactly peaches. The bottom line is that arsenal have cash reserves. As for the commercial deals, they can stick there critisisms up there bottoms. The club had to do what they had to do to fund the Grove move.
Anyway, off to work.
Kelsey, ime not been agrresive toward you, just putting my point forward. I am only ever angry with you when i stare at your hair. hahaha
Rasp, the impression left is that arsenal have to sell to survive. I find that misleading thats why i am annoyed.
Off now, everyone have a good day.
I think that the AST have been saying exactly that – why are the club so conservatve with their surplus funds – for the last three years.
What they know is that if we dropped out of the Champions Lge that would eat into our cash reserves and that’s why they aren’t touched. The £30 million that sits in the bank is our safety net in case we aren’t in the Champs Lge and we don’t have anyone to sell to boost the coffers.
If you accept that statement as true then it follows that the football makes a loss 😦
TMHT – now you’ve gone I can tell you that I think you’re wrong 😉
peaches that is exactly what Hill Wood said,at the beginning of last season, a sort of safety net.
No problem terry 🙂
Morning, all way above my head !.
Speculate to accumalate ?. £30m in bank ( or whatever sum it is ? ) incase we do not qualify or £30m spent on “super quality” to make sure we do ?. Over to you !. 🙂
Morning glic – I agree that sometimes you have to take a chance and the AST have urged Ivan to spend the £30m sighting that the increased income from the tv deals will cover a Champs Lge drop out but the club won’t take the risk.
However if they negotiate the new commercial deals better there will be £75m cash sitting there and the assumption is that some of that will be spent on the team.
I think we are really all singing from the same hymn sheet.
Arsenal are in an extremely strong financial position.
Arsenal, at the balance Sheet date, had £154m cash balances, which contrasts with many other clubs having overdrafts.
Salaries will continue to rise steeply – ask Theo – so the point about growing revenue is that it is necessary as a minimum to match those salary increases.
With the bogus Etihad stadium ‘sponsorship’ for City and the incredible individual TV deals for Barca and Madrid and with others like PSG and Zenit doing similar revenue deals, and the fact Manure have stolen a jump on us worldwide, we need to move our arses in increasing revenue income streams, otherwise we will fall back in comparison.
We are good — we can get better!! 🙂
I may be wrong, but everyone seems to think it will be a breeze in the park to get 4th or better, personally, I think it`s going to be a battle. Imo, the top 3 will be any permutation of City, Chavs ,Manu. We will have a fight with Spuds and Everton for 4th . Spuds have bought well and for once Everton have started well. Let the battle begin !.
Manchester United’s commercial revenue was announced at £117.6m compared to our £28m
http://www.itv.com/news/granada/2012-09-18/manchester-united-announce-fall-in-revenue/
Off to take Max to the pampering pup parlour ( no relation to Ray 🙂 ) laters
RA – that £154m cash is a red herring as it comes from Season Ticket sales, it’s only there for a while and goes towards operating costs of the football. You’re a bit naughty to put that out there because I’m sure you know that – cat amongst pidgeons methinks 😆
glic – I agree it’s going to be a proper fight for the the top four.
Another factor this year is that there are 10 london derby’s which are usually tense affairs regardless of the opposition.
Peaches, I expressly said that ‘at the balance sheet date’ the cash etc etc.
Cash is part of what is known as ‘working capital’ and moves on a daily basis, of which paying creditors, wages and also receiving money from advance sales is just another.
Seems like we are both telling each other what we both already know. 🙂
Morning all, it’s Rocky Wednesday ……
…… New post ……
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