Written by Gooner in Exile
With the season fast approaching and yet another summer passing without the departure of Almunia and without the arrival of the much craved experienced custodian I thought it would be a good time to assess our current goalkeeping line up against the rest of the top four wannabes.
So let’s look at our current crop first.
Szczesny – aged 21 – this lad is the real deal in my opinion. A good communicator, confident to come for the high ball, and an excellent starfish approach to deal with one on ones. There are still a couple of areas for improvement one is decision making under pressure the mad rush out for a 50:50 through ball which will come with experience. The other is his kicking which again will come with age and strength development but is such a necessity in the modern game, especially as we as a team so often lose the fifty-fifty ball that the kick needs to be competed twenty yards past halfway line rather than on it.
At 6ft 5 he provides an imposing figure in the goal although for me I would like to see him fill out a bit as a bit of extra padding for a goalkeeper is useful when being challenged in mid air.
One thing that does not appear to be an issue is his confidence, he appears to have an arrogant streak about him, which all the best keepers need, even after the Carling cup final he came back to give a good display against Sunderland before being injured against Barca. It is these moments of error where only the keeper is to blame and how the keeper responds to it that truly separates the great from the good keepers.
Half a season of top flight football under the belt will have benefited him. Perhaps the best thing that has been said about him was from his Brentford manager Andy Scott during his loan spell during 2009-10. “It has reached the stage where when he lets in a goal we wonder why he hasn’t saved it.”
Fabianski age 26 – I believe he has had enough chances, whilst his general keeping improved last season there is still an underlying weakness in his basics, in my opinion he snatches at the ball which leaves him vulnerable to fumbling it, and for me is too jumpy on his feet.
The only keeper around our rivals that I could liken him to is Gomes, the same scruffiness to the style of keeping which concerns me when watching. He is 6ft 3 but somehow he manages to make himself look 5ft 9.
Mannone – aged 23, again not good enough for the Nunber One shirt although he is a good shot stopper. Like Szczesny he seems to have an unwavering confidence. Last season on loan at Hull he received some good reports bit unfortunately his appearances were cut short by injuries.
So that’s our bunch I’ve left out Manuel because he as we all know has had his day. I think despite that Szczesny has been given squad number 13 for the forthcoming season that he will be first choice, although I expect Wenger to make plenty of noise that Fabianski is still in the running to keep the younger of the two Poles in check throughout the season.
So what about our rivals?
Manchester United, after losing Van Der Saar who has been unquestionably the best keeper in the league for the last three or four seasons Ferguson has decided to invest in youth. He has signed the 20 year old De Gea, however the noises coming out of Old Trafford are not resoundingly positive. Ferguson has signed him it appears because he feels he missed out on Cech at a similar age due to worrying about age.
The goalkeeping coach has cast some doubt on his decision making saying he expected him to come for a high ball that led to a conceded goal in a pre season friendly, a view Ferguson shared before retracting his comments and saying he didn’t think he had a chance with the goal. Additionally Ferguson has questioned his physical build. He is not a fluent English speaker and therefore will have a communication issue.
With Kuszczak requesting a move away from Old Trafford Ferguson is left with Anders Lindergard (27) and the young Ben Amos (20) as cover should De Gea be left out for any reason. I think United have left themselves remarkably exposed in this area.
Chelsea have Cech who has never recovered the form he showed before his unfortunate collision with Hunt’s shin (accidental my arse). He still remains one of the best shot stoppers in the league but his timidness in aerial duels since that injury has led to Chelsea looking more vulnerable from set pieces. Like Ferdinand and Vidic, Terry and teammates have never looked comfortable with anyone else behind them, so for them an injury to Cech would leave them fielding Turnbull or Hilario, Hilario has often been called upon and found wanting, Turnbull has less experience but is probably second choice. Combined Hilario and Turnbull they have made 26 appearances in five years.
Spurs have signed the ageing Friedel, whilst last season he continued to defy his age with superb performances for Villa he is not getting any younger, older goalkeepers hit an age where everything looks great one day and two weeks later the age starts to tell and the injuries mount up. Gomes always makes me smile as despite some great shot stopping he is always prone to an error or two. As extra cover they have Cudicini who I would have liked to see us sign when Lehman departed.
The Twitcher has assembled an experienced group of goalkeepers but only Cudicini has ever set the world alight on the top level and at 37 his best days are behind him as he proved last year. His game was all about shot stopping and agility, you just can’t keep that going into your late thirties as a keeper and to survive at the top level you need to rely on your mind more than your body.
Man City have Joe Hart who benefited from a season long loan in with Birmingham to return to City last season and capture the starting slot. He is probably the most complete young goalkeeper in this crop and will go on to be one of the best England has produced. With Given left for Villa the only cover at Eastlands is provided by ex Arsenal trainee Stuart Taylor, who at the age of 30 has never found a regular Number One berth that he desired when he left. The other backup is Neilsen. Like Chelsea reserve keepers these two have only a handful of games at the top flight and any serious injury to Hart would leave them also exposed.
Liverpool still have Reina who Carragher has called the best goalkeeper in the world (after gifting us an equaliser at the start of last season) despite not even being Spain’s number one. I think he is good in every aspect of keeping but he is not great in any. As an ever present he has also prevented the reserve keepers any game time so if any injury occurs they would also be exposed to fielding Brad Jones or the untested Doni.
Having taken a more detailed look at the goalkeepers among our closest rivals it is difficult to see why our goalkeeping options are so maligned. It is without doubt a fact that we have not had a number one since Lehman good enough for the level we compete at. However take the main keeper away from City, Chelsea or Liverpool and they look very vulnerable, Spurs have assembled a group of experienced but hardly world class keepers and United find themselves in a similar position to us, except they have spent a lot more acquiring the group.
I hope that Szczesny continues to improve and we can finally put the goalkeeping question to bed and be safe in the knowledge we have a keeper for the next ten to fifteen years who we can trust. What I would ask of Wenger is that our young keepers coming through are sent on loan to other Premier League clubs as for keepers the only place to learn is at the sharp end, and I’d rather that it be at the expense of WBA or Wigan than for us.
Arsenal News 24/7
arsenalarsenal.net 
So why has he been given #13 for 2011/12? Who gets #1?
I assume until Almunia leaves he keeps the Number 1 jersey? But as with all positions in football these days the Number is irrelevant
I am not sure who wrote this informative piece but I enjoyed reading it.
I think all Wojo is missing is Experience. With Experience all his weaknesses, kicks and decisions making, will dissapear. Yes he made mistakes last term, but every top keeper makes mistakes, Van der Saar against Liverpool, Riena agaisnt us. And I’m sure the rest have all made mistakes. I think Wojo will be our number one.
🙂
Yes, Szczesny is Arsenal’s number one.
Not much room for bickering there. 🙂
Enjoyed the analysis of other team’s GK situation.
From twitter…
So, based on 1st leg results. Possible opponents for Arsenal in the CL playoff are Rubin Kazan, Twente, Panathinaikos, Genk and Malmo.
Draw is this Friday.
Nice write-up. I’m so convinced of Szczesny’s quality (and not just potential) that I struggle to understand why others, even the great Ray Parlour, say we should sign a new keeper. I would’ve loved to have signed Reina a couple of years ago, or possibly short-arse Shay Given or ageing Brad Friedel, but I wouldn’t want anyone to be brought in now. As is said in the post, distribution is an area for Szczesny’s attention but I’m confident that will come.
And Fabianski and Mannone make very good cover, so long as they are happy to play second and third fiddle (which won’t be that long).
As for other teams’ keepers, I really like the look of de Gea, I think United have done well nabbing him. But christ, they needed to bring someone in, what was behind van der Saar is pitiful. Joe Hart is good, as is Reina, and Cech remains more than decent, but others? Nothing else looks that impressive in England.
I’ve been wondering about the number 1 shirt number too. Yes, numbers don’t really matter. Except the number 1 is the only shirt that retains its historic meaning. And the moment it’s given to Szczesny or Fabianski, all sorts of meaning will be read into it. I think we won’t have a number 1 for a while once Almunia’s been offloaded; Wenger will wait to see if Szczesny cements his position this season.
Yes Szczesny number 1 but i would go foe Schwarzer again as his back up and goalkeeping coach.Training with Flappy and Mannone is just holding Szczesny back.I dont trust Flappy if Szczesny gets injured
London, it was I, thanks
And thanks everyone else for the comments.
26 I’d have to say Ben Foster had a good season last year as did Al Habsi at Wigan. But for both of these and many other keepers that we should apparently sign they are not playing at the sharp end.
To be a goalkeeper for Wigan you could lose 3-0 and still have a fantastic game, at the Arsenal you could throw one in and be a failure.
It is not easy to be a keeper at a top side, for the simple fact they generally have less to do, so the one or two saves they are called upon to make are vital to the teams success. Its what made Seaman great, he was dependable, he also had a long gone attribute of the ability to save everything without having to make great saves. Not that he didn’t make them occasionally, but me and my Dad used to reckon Safe Hands hated getting dirty and therefore his positioning and footwork were beyond compare.
The teams we can face in CL qualifiers will come from Udinese and the winners of the following ties(first leg scores in brackets):
Standard Liège v FC Zürich (1-1)
FC Twente v Vaslui (2-0)
Benfica v Trabzonspor (2-0)
Dynamo Kyiv v Rubin Kazan (0-2)
Odense v Panathinaikos (1-1)
Fair point, Exile, al Habsi and Foster are decent. Neither is good enough for us though.
As for keepers at big clubs not being busy, generally that’s true. But at our place, perhaps not?!
26 are you implying we’re not a big club? 😀
I’d rather not play Rubin Kazan
I think Chesney is fantastic.
Is there any seeding in the CL Qualifier? We play Benfica Saturday so we will soon know whether we want to avoid them or not.
Liege or Zurich will do nicely or Odense. Like GM i’d rather not face Rubin Kazan or Dynamo.
tbh i dont care who we play in champions league if we want 2 be in it we have 2 beat the best teams thats wot the champions league is about n plus szezesny is great
Rubin have beaten barca twice (I think)
True Set, any unfortunate event in CL Qualifier restricts financial income from the Group Stages. Which whilst not mattering in terms of trophy at the end of the day could prevent a signing or two.
Damn autocorrect….that should have been Ste not Set
Exile, there is seeding, which is why we can’t be drawn against fellow seeds, Bayern Munich, Villarreal or Lyon. The highest ranked of the other teams (Udinese plus the winners from the 3rd qualifying round as listed above) will also be seeded, and the seeds will then be drawn against the unseeded teams.
Ste is of course right, we shouldn’t worry about who we have to play. But still, avoiding a trip to Tartarstan, the south Russian republic that is the home of Rubin, can’t be a bad thing. And lovely as Portugal is, Benfica have enough about them to want to avoid them at such an early stage in the season. But yes, the Benfica friendly on Saturday could be a bit more interesting if the draw throws us together.
Cheers 26 that makes sense now.
Price of football reviews out today make interesting reading.
Did you know you can’t get an adult ticket at Anfield for less than £39, thats expensive for a team in the North West I would think.
Also they show Chelsea cheapest day out at £26.50 which annoys me because there are so few tickets available at £23.50 its hardly comparable.
All on the BBC website if you fancy a look.
26, thanks for the update re: CL qualifiers.
I wasn’t sure how to verify the tweet.
Genk and Malmo!
Hi Chas
See, now you’re getting me into the details of CL qualification: Genk and Malmo are in the mix but (being champions from leagues whose champions aren’t guaranteed a Group Stage place) they are in a separate qualifier stream, what UEFA call the “Champions Route”. Whereas we are in the “League Route”, for the also-rans from the stronger leagues.
All clear now? Thought not. 😉
26,
haha, i’ve just been looking on uefa.com and eventually sussed it out after about 15 minutes, so i do actually understand what you’re saying.
So Panathinaikos v Odense for tonight’s football action, then.
Aaah! There’s a nice fresh breeze blowing through the comments today, sweeping away all the recent negativity. How delightful when the sun comes out.
Glad you do Chas, the procedures seem designed to confuse to me…….
Shezer is the man no question about it!
I like Szczesny a lot. I think he certainly has the x factor, but I think Fabianski (pre-shoulder) was doing well and I think it’s unfair to write him off.
However, I think Wenger knows Sczcesny is the one and once Almungo-mungo-they-hate-him-in-the-congo goes then he’ll have the #1 jersey.
I just hope if Sczcesny makes some mistakes the Arsenal boo-boys don’t start on him.
WG
@26 – Rubin Kazan scoring away from home! The Champs league is in trouble, aren’t they the clean-sheet merchants of the last 5 years? 🙂
WG
Excellent analysis GiE
Szczesney is clearly the man for the future, but is he the man for now?
I have a funny feeling that AW will start with Fabianski as No 1 – or go for a terrible non-decision by alternating between the two Poles with no clear No 1.
I have reservations about Szcz – I think he made a lot of bad mistakes in his appearances last year. But his presence and confidence can’t be faulted and they count for a lot with a GK.
But I also have reservations about Fabi, so, personally, I can see where Ray Parlour is coming from in suggesting we should bring in a top keeper.
I know I’m sad but I couldn’t resist checking Rubin Kazan’s CL Group Stages record. And here it is: P12 W2 D6 L4 F6 A11. The highlight is a 1-2-1 record against Barca, including the 2-1 win at Camp Nou a couple of years ago (though I think Barca were already through at that stage).
So, nothing really to worry about there, other than the hassle of travelling to that part of the world.
I think I saw their name being one of the Russian sides that was after repatriating Andrei Arshavin. Not sure Mr Fashion would want to live down there though, would be a bit like Balotelli and Manchester.
Redders
Re your 9.42
You certainly have my thanks.
Provocative posts with provocative headlines may not be the norm here on AA, but hopefully the regulars don’t mind it once in a while. Along with all the vitriol they do sometimes attract good new contributors who might stick around.
Rapier wit generally wins the day – so thank you for your fine swordsmanship.
On another topic… 26 and I were chatting last night about Joey Barton.
One question: why are Newcastle letting him go on a free?
Hi Rocky, 🙂
Thanks for that.
I am sure Rasp did not mean to be disparaging with his earlier comment, but it sounded a little like the loyal defenders of the castle (site) were being lumped in with the invading hordes (the more visceral bloggers) as just belligerent participants in a quarrel.
It does become boring trying to reason with neanderthals, after a time, because, without wishing to be patronising, I do not personally wish to descend to the thuggishly confrontational, personal acrimony which is the fallback mode of certain types of blogger, upon whom the the subtlety of humour is lost, so you have to ask yourself what’s the point? 🙂
I loved your Post, but as I said at the time, the concepts of support and loyalty that you were so eloquently making, was going to be lost on the very people the Post was trying to address. And so it proved.
Nonetheless, your Post was very valuable in voicing the beliefs of the majority of us.
To paraphrase the late President Kennedy, these people are only interested in what bragging rights the team/club can give them, by winning trophies, rather than the support they can show the team/club to help them win trophies.
That is so simple – how can they fail to understand that?
I am often embarrassed by the stupid fickleness of these fans, when the media pick up on their gormless behaviour, because as a passionate, long-time Arsenal fan I am ashamed to be associated, in any way, with these supposed supporters, who do not know the meaning of the word, and give us all a bad name!
Sorry, that is all yesterday’s news, but Rasp’s comment needed responding to. 🙂
Great analogy Redders – should be the headline of a Post:
“Ask not what your club can do for you; ask what you can do for your club.”
Sums up the current sense of entitlement brilliantly and pithily.
Newcastle’s owner is famous/notorious for looking after his money, and why not.
For him to release a player on a ‘free’ gives me the distinct impression that there is more to this than meets the eye.
By the way, didn’t Newcastle pick him up on a free in the first place? If so, maybe that’s the answer. Offload him at no capital cost, to save his no doubt high salary, and also rid themselves of an infernal nuisance. 🙂
RedArse, I second and third that. There is actually no point engaging with these types because for them the point of football is not supporting, but just having trophies. Whatever. They have a right to heckle and spit their dummies and there’s nothing anyone can do about it.
For me, it has to be unconditional. I will never kick the club I love when they’re down, I’ll do my best to pick them back up.
CamberG, 🙂
Well said. I saw you fighting your corner yesterday and tried to lend my support. 🙂
There are thousands of us who think that loving the club equates with giving loyalty and unconditional support, and if there are those who cannot understand that – more fool them!
Anyway, I suppose it’s time we put that subject to bed! 🙂
GIE, 🙂
I am really sorry that I did not compliment you on a well written, and very detailed Post on our GKs, which I am in total agreement with.
My apologies for digressing by bending Rocky’s ear!
I really think, at this stage, AW has got to come out and authoritatively and decisively state that either Szcesney is our No.1 or Fabianski is our No.1.
Leaving things hanging is unsettling and rumours will spread about us bringing in another Keeper because he (AW) is unsure about both of them.
Again, sorry for the late thank you for the Post. 🙂
Redders
Agree – he should say who is our No 1, but I bet he doesn’t.
Joey Barton, apparently it all comes about from a bit of a dressing room bust up and then some things said on Twitter etc
You can check out his twitter feed here its all very interesting, he is still moaning and groaning.
http://twitter.com/#!/joey7barton
Joey Barton quoting Vigil, now I have heard everything.
Virgil from Thunderbirds, presumably… 🙂
Wojo a certain number 1! anyone who flattens bale twice in one game is a winner by me!
I’ve wanted to see given in an arsenal shirt for years though. I remember so many games where he kept them in the game against us making save after save.
As for yesterdays post, all i can say is WOW! Well done to all those bloggers who had the patience to deal with all the idiotic, whinging “fans”. Took me two hours to sift throught them all (i wouldn’t have bothered but there were some gems in there).
Sir chesney all the way for me plus I think we have area in the team far more in need of some cash spending on them.
I would have a real problem with Barton, can’t stand him and he isn’t that good either.
Barton is a thug! Newcastle gave him far too many chances (some how the refs do too. Everytime he plays us he gets away with murder.)
If he had his head switched on he would actually be a very good squad player for the mighty gunners
“Disparaging” …. where, when, how?
If the rumors about Barton comes to Arsenal is true, then Diaby must have been sharping his knife in the treatment room right now!
Aha, this….. “We had a tempestuous day on here yesterday, do you think we could return to our more cultured approach to blogging today?”
Did you read all the stuff last night about wife beating? …. I found it particularly distatsteful. What would any woman who has ever suffered such abuse think when we reading that we use it as an analogy to being a football supporter?
Also the language yesterday was a bit too rich for my liking and that did include some regulars.
Basically although I only stepped in a few times, I had to keep an eye on the blog all day which was particuarly inconvenient given my workload.
All I was asking was for a quieter day today. My comments were not aimed at any individual and definitely not a criticism of Rocky’s excellent and perfectly justified post.
nice and well written piece.
RockyLives says:
August 2, 2011 at 4:31 pm
On another topic… 26 and I were chatting last night about Joey Barton.
One question: why are Newcastle letting him go on a free?
Because he’s a word that I’m not allowed to say on here.
Rasp
Sorry about this morning but that spectrum is an idiot.
No worries gm. Someone, (Rohan I think) suggested we read like another ‘popular’ site yesterday and that was not our intention when we set up AA.
Rasp
I think it was more because he recognised so many from lg rather than the banter. I don’t understand why people feel the need to slate people who don’t agree with them. I ended up being accused of having a mail order bride because I tried to inject a bit of humour.
GM: Nah, that can’t be it, in addition to the much misunderstood Barton, Newcastle seem to specialise in employing players that are words that we’re not allowed to say here: Dyer, Bowyer, Nolan, Alan Smith, Asprilla, Bellamy, Carroll, Bramble, Batty.
gm, I got my wish any way because GiE’s post has attracted an altogether different and more positive response 🙂
He apparently slagged the club off 26.
I have a lot of doubts about the future Rasp but Chesney is a beacon of hope for me. I think he’s the best we’ve had for a while.
Yes I agree, our No.1 has to be Chesney.
Afobe looked good and Frimpong will make it I’m sure. I’d play Afobe on the right side of midfield in place of Eboue any day.
I’m off home now see you all later.
Now that’s what I call proper analysis.
Our keepers, their keepers. appearance stats for reserve keepers, strengths and weakness of each. Lovely jubbly.
GiE. I absolutely love your ability to ally factual information with your personal insight/opinion. You also do it in a manner that doesn’t make you sound like a know it all, as you always seem to put forward your conclusion as though it were one of many possible conclusions based on the info you have provided.
Quality work big fella.
Second that Sharkey
Another of the GIE fanclub 😉
I note that I’m back in my familiar position of being the only person on AA who thinks that Szcz is not ready… yet.
Yep.
Someone has to stick their neck out Rocky 🙂
I can see the argument that he won’t ever be ready unless her gets the experience etc, which may well be fair enough.
It just means that I expect him to make more mistakes this season than an experienced ‘keeper would and that this may contribute to us not achieving as much as we would all want to.
Hopefully he’s a quick learner.
Peaches
I’ve had quite enough of neck-sticking-out for the time being, thanks 🙂
One point worth noting about our two Polish goalies. Their much-revered Polish coach, who trained both, apparently rates Fabianski as the better ‘keeper. Just saying.
I think AW will juggle the two poles – there must be a name for that 🙂 – he’s done it before just not with poles.
I feel that the keepers are the only players that he changes when they make a howler. May be he doesn’t trust the psyche of goalkeepers.
If a young keeper makes a mistake should he be withdrawn or allowed to carry on?
What I mean is, when other young players make mistakes they don’t get withdrawn.
It comes back to the notion of defending as a team, our keepers are too often let down by poor defending in front of them. It can make them look dodgy whereas the problem lies further up the pitch.
Pole-juggling (sorry there’s more than two) 🙂
Good point Peaches. Our team defending over the past couple of seasons would probably have made even Seaman look bad.
Chas – Brilliant 😀
The third one is Mannone…
Almunia is the one in the back right corner, chucked out with the rubbish.
Well done chas 😀
Haha, thought you were going to say they were Finnish.
Odense beat Panathinaikos, so become our first possible CL opponents in the play off round.
Rocky your point about experience is valid, which is why I raised the issues of loans. Hart benefited massively from time at Birmingham. Less pressure coupled with a real chance to shine and regular exposure to what he would face every week. So much that when back at City the fans had no worries about him stepping in for Given.
Szcz at Brentford there was no way to assess. For me though one half season in the Arsenal team with the CC mistake thrown in would have done a lot for him.
Every keeper will make a mistake it’s what they do the next game or the next time faced with the same situation.
For me he is the weakest GK of our immediate competition but for me there are not many available who would improve us and allow Szcz to grow with us. Just think we might not need to worry about a keeper for 19 years!
Thanks Sharkey, Jamie
Fair points GiE
Your observation that Fabi is 6’3″ but makes himself look 5’9″ is so accurate.
Is he REALLY 6’3″?
Now I admit That little gem was from Wiki. We don’t out player height/weight stats on the club website.
You’re more than welcome GiE.
Chas. I really don’t know how you do what you do so well, but please keep doing it. Pole juggling…hilarious.
Rasp, in fairness, the WB thing is mainly of my doing.
I never intended for the comparison to be distasteful or dismissive of a serious subject.
I fear that one person’s complete (ad deliberate?) lack of understanding of my loose comparison, changed and then exacerbated the tone of the fairly simple point I was trying to make.
As CambG says “it has to be unconditional. I will never kick the club I love when they’re down, I’ll do my best to pick them back up”
Whoever mentioned Sz’s flattenig of Bale is spot on. Itys exactly the sortof spirit that we often lack.
Some days that sort of challenge will lift the whole team and turn games in our favour.
I’m completely baffled whenever anyone says that we need a new keeper. I’d be completely happy with either of Fab2 or Sz, with Sz, having the edge.
The confidence and authority that he exudes is almost scary.
He also has an angry/mad streak to him. Watching him beat the ground after conceding, tells us a lot about his character.
Re yesterday, if it brings in some gems like Bstrum, Rob78 and one or two others, who then hang around, then once every now and then is fine by me.
I’ve made a note to myself to give tose tyoes no more than 200 words or 3mins of my time (whichever comes sooner) in future.
It ended with me googling ‘taking things too literally’ and posting a link to a site for Autism and Aspergers. Not good. 😦
Night all.
Having read and kept upto date with AA Posts and comments, the current divide amongst Arsenal fans seems very much class-driven, as well as people’s ability to dull/nullify their pain thresh-hold.
Who remembers (Whizzer & Chips?) Ivor Lott & Tony Broke?
The whole fundamentals of the Arsenal debate reminds me of that.
AA has many intellectual professional’s, who with a few well chosen phrases, bamboozles anyone with a slightly different opinion. Like the difference between a night at the Opera and a night at a raucous Pantomime. Or people who quaff champagne & caviar looking down and ridiculing those who have only bread & water.
Everyone knows that the opinions of the champagne quaffers has throughout history always been more relevant than those who drink water, and yet in most instances, it is the water-drinkers who feel the most pain. Unfortunately, they don’t always have the language skills to articulate that process, and so become embroiled in circular arguments against intellectual superiors, who either don’t care, or who have enough resources for any such pain not to register.
A lot like 10% of the world’s population owning 95% of all wealth & not caring a jot if the other 90% died.
And your evidence for that is what Herb?
I make no bones about being a paid up member of the middle class (being a lawyer, I can hardly deny it, even if I was the first person in my family to go to university). But how do you feel you can presume to know what class everyone is when all you have to look at in most cases is an anonymised username and a few lines of text? But well done, you have managed to patronise pretty much everyone across the AKB vs In Arsene We Rust spectrum.
well i thought since im always looked upon as critical…i do belive we are sorted on the goalie side…i think Chezzer is going to be just fine and Fabianski isnt too bad either..bur its a gamble..lets hope it works out..
well ill leave it with that..sometimes one has to look on the bright sides and personally i think the brightest light of em all will be Frimpong this year..one always step up and in my opinion he’s going to do just that..
have a great day all Gooners…
Before any bickering starts van we just celebrate the fact that two Arsrnal players combined from a set piece to score a goal. Coquelin laid off for Sunu who smashed it home. It was for France u 20’s
Anyone else watching U20 World Cup on Eurosport first time I’ve dipped in, have we got many out there?
26,
Just from the amount of people who are priveliged enough to be able to buy a season-ticket, use of language, and the ease at which they deal with the pain (if indeed they feel any), of all things Arsenal.
It’s only an opinion, we’re all entitled to them. It is a proven fact that the ‘have-nots’ always feel more pain than ‘the haves’ in every area of life, which would include football.
26M.
All you have to do is read the comments of the site originators to realise that Herb’s opinion is correct. They want the site to be champagne and caviar and written in the Queens English – when football is all about pie’s and beer and some blue language..
Herb
Why don’t you expand on that thesis for a headline post?
I find it hard to believe, but who knows, maybe there is a class divide – although why middle class intellectual types would be less angry (as a group) about Arsenal’s recent failings than others is a mystery to me.
Also, a lot of people don’t fit comfortably in the ‘class’ paradigm. Are you basing it on money, educational standard, parental background? Other factors?
Whatever, it could create a fascinating debate, particularly if you can find any evidence to your idea. I wonder if those people at the Football Studies department at Liverpool Uni have ever investiagated how class affects the manner of football support…
Got to admit Exile, I’ve managed to resist the temptation of the U20 World Cup, though I am pleased to hear some of our boys (Lorient’s boys) have done well for France, especially Coquelin, who I’d love to see end up back at our place.
Is it clear why there is an U20 World Cup in the first place? What’s achieved that is not achieved in U21 football?
But thanks to your prompting, I have now turned on ESPN to catch the second half…..
Being articulate is not the preserve of class….have you heard Boris Johnson trying to make a speech…..or at the other end of class divide the left school at 16 Micky Flannagan who as he says in his stand up went to a school where aiming for a job driving the van was seen as over ambitious.
I think most regulars come here for sanctuary away from the knee jerk reactionary diatribe or the set in stone negative thinking. And most importantly to discuss things in a balanced way.
If someone writes a post tomorrow saying everything is rosy in Arsenalworld I think we would all strongly object to it. But what most of us want is balance, and what I want more than anything else is positivity.
Herb
‘It’s a proven fact that have-nots feel more pain than haves.’
Really? Proven by whom?
Some of the unhappiest, most pain-filled people I have known in my life have been loaded and some of the happiest I’ve known haven’t had two brass farthings to rub together.
Rocky mate..
how do you see tha goalie situation? could we still need an older proven goalie..or should we, as im inclined to think manage with Chezzer amd Fabianski…im abit torn..i guess almunia isnt leaving either..and if? could he be in the mix(god forbid;)
and i would like to say one thing, even though we dont agree on much i hope you understand that i appreciate this blog and do respect my fellow Gooners..
Sorry 26 you’re snared now.
Sorry Herb and GN5, I think you’re completely wrong on this one. I know plenty of moneyed Gooners who are very much in the anti Arsene camp, and quite a few from more modest backgrounds who take the opposite view. The people I know make an unscientific sample, but it can only be your assumptions and presumptions that lead you to interpret where people you don’t know sit in the social hierarchy.
Even an opinion has to be based on some real information, something you just don’t have on this point.
By the way, I’m not really sure what a “site originator” is – I think most of the regulars here (including both of you and me) have alighted on this site on its journey.
and may i add ..good post Gooner In Exile
however dont be very surprised if im back being my old self tomorrow mate ;
I’ve watched several of the U17 games. The overall quality has been fair but one player has been outstanding. Ibrahima Drame plays for the Qatari club Aspire and he scored a hat-trick in the first 25 minutes and is just one beast of a striker. Mark my words he will become well known.
Haha cheers Tomstoned.
No one minds a contradictory view but as in every debate there has to be some give and take.
All of those things you mentioned, Rocky. How many working-class people can afford a season-ticket at the Emirates?
AA has been guilty of inverted snobbery. I remember being completely mis-quoted, and then verbally slaughtered for the same quote I didn’t make. I also remember a die-hard 100% Gooner posting an anti-Arsenal ‘joke’ told to them by a Tottenham fan. Dandan came to the rescue and removed it so quickly, it was like it was never there. But it was there long enough for me and no doubt a few others to see.
Double-standards?
I see what you mean GN5, always good to see someone caning Man U, and Drame and co did it in style.
26M.
To assume that your sampling and opinion is correct and we are – completely wrong – is the type of comment that strengthens my opinion.
Thanks for the sentiment Tom. I can’t speak for the blog, but personally I like there to be a range of opinions.
It’s just the name calling that’s a bore.
My (lonely) view on GKs is that Ches is not ready and will cost us quite a few points this year (although he won’t be slaughtered by the fans in the way Al or Fabi would for the same mistakes). However it may be a price worth paying so we reap the rewards the following season and thereafter.
I’m also not 100% sure yet whether he or Fabi will turn out to be the better keeper.
sure is Gooner in Exile ; darn ;hope your doing ok at your end mate..and not to sound too much of a fool..it was a really good article and me well i read the most of em out there..and always voice my opinion like it or not.
still we’re all Gooners and im worried about the divide..lets stick together for The Arsenal..
getting late and the Mata affair does seem to want me to send Gzidis a small mail…not booing ;..God forbid…hehe
agreed Rocky..im worried..but if manure can go for de Gea..well im not sure..Lindergaard has some experience but from lower leagues Norwegian…shame we didnt get Given though..would be perfect to me..
we’re all Gooners Ricky in the end..we’ll get together once again..but im afriad the days of the library have passed….
Herb, you’re right that the cost of tickets is outrageously high and has priced out many fans with little cash. Though some with less cash still do make it: I know a guy who takes home a few pennies more than £10k but still spends 10% of that on funding his season ticket. That is real commitment.
But again, you can’t judge how many people who post here have season tickets, still less cross-reference that against their views on the Wenger In-Out debate.
And, to get into cod sociology, you also can’t equate money and class, they are two very different things.
But I do agree that an unhealthy feature of the modern game in this country (but not in countries like Germany, Spain and France) is the impact of cost on access to games.
GN5: Go back and have a look at what I said: I said my sample was unscientific. Sorry, but people presuming to know what other people are and are not is, in my opinion, just patronising.
26M.
So let me see — we were “completely wrong” based on your unscientific study?
The reality is that over the years the fans have changed from those in hob nail boots and boiler suits , who gave a damn, to those in brogues and pin stripe suits who know sweet FA about football……………..
I’m happy for the library tag to go….I just wish it was replaced with an atmosphere that other teams were frightened of playing in front of not one that our team is.
So because I wear a suit I know nothing about football?….cheers GN5…..you are criticising the site for being snobbish and in fact are exercising football snobbery yourself….please give it a rest now.
Herb,
I don’t believe that AA has double standards, in fact I feel that they have high standards, but therein lies the problem. Football is not, and never will be, a game where the majority of the fans have the high level of intelect that AA demands of it’s participants.
I admire their attempts to keep the site free of insulting and abusive language but I also feel that on many occasions they stretch their ethos a tad too far…………
What I said was AA has many intellectual professionals, I didn’t berate or criticise anyone, or target any particular individual, I merely pointed out that the current divide amongst Arsenal fans reminds me of the age-old class-war, which you 26, decided to take personally. Why would you do that? And as a trained lawyer (you), I’m not even going to attempt debating with you.
Herb
I reckon the vast majority of season ticket holders at The Grove are working class, in the sense that they have to work to keep the wolf from the door, don’t have rich Daddies to bail them out and so forth.
However, I’m sure that the cost of a season ticket is prohibitive for many at the lower end of the earnings scale (by which I mean people earning well below national average).
I’m not sure what the national average wage is right now, but I reckon it’s enough to buy a season ticket if that’s your passion.
By the way, I was serious about you writing a post on the subject. I think it’s an interesting area.
GN5
You’re often very happy to castigate in pretty strident terms those who you think are wrong, and good luck to you – I may not agree with you every time, but I respect an opinion. Likewise, when I say “I think you’re completely wrong on this one”, by all means show me the error of my ways, but don’t misrepresent what I actually said. I expressed a view because, in my opinion, Herb and then you made a generalisation that had no possible basis in fact. Once you express a view, it’s open to others (me included) to disagree.
I know since your migration to the other London (Ontario) you’ve not been able to go to Arsenal games live. You’re right that, in your absence, there have been big changes in the profile of fans going to games (even in my mere 30 years of attendance, that has been true), but it certainly isn’t the simplistic matter of boiler suits vs. pinstripe suits, things are a good deal more complicated than that.
Herb
My response was anything other than one of personal offence – quite simply, I disagree with you because I think the point you make is wrong.
Play the ball, not the man.
GIE who the heck are you to tell me to give it a rest?
I also wear a suit and prior to retiring was on the executive of the one of the largest companies in Canada. I have been semi retired for close to 10 years but I’m still on the B.O.D of 15 different companies.
I started in hob nailed boots so I appreciate both sides of the story.
Watching and listening to the “knowledgeable suits” booing our team in pre season was just sickening.
Maybe you need a rest before telling others to give it a rest Hmmm………
Rocky,
I am one of the great ‘un-washed’ water-drinking unemployed who only gets to see the Emirates from a TV screen. I’m certainly not good enough to write a Post, but thanks for the invitation.
26M.
Give me a break, where is the basis of fact in your “unscientific study”?
26,
As I said, it wasn’t aimed at anybody in particular, it is just an over-all feeling, especially with my own recent experiences, and I stand by it.
Boris Johnson has an upper-class Etonian ‘I’m posher than you’ accent in spite of his stuttering.
So Gn5 it sounds like you disagree with Herb.
You think it was the suits who were booing, Herb thinks it was the ‘hobnail boot’ brigade, if I can borrow your expression.
Herb
It’s quite clear from your original comment on this subject and your subsequent replies that you are more than eloquent enough to write a post. Seriously.
Night all.
Something warm and cuddly to sign off on: a Man United XI including Evra, Smalling, Park and Jones lost 8-2 to Marseilles this evening. Admittedly, the United side did also include David Ginola, Fabien Barthez and a French pop star called Matt Pokora, but that won’t stop me using it as ammo in the office tomorrow.
GN5
Who the heck are you to tell me to give you a break?
Sorry, couldn’t resist! 🙂
Really, am off now, night night.
Rocky;
I couldn’t possibly know who was really booing. I made that comment based on the popular assumption that it’s only “suits” that can afford tickets these days
26M.
Don’t leave with the impression that you will be missed!
Not worthy of you GN5, you’re better than that.
So GN5 it was all those in suits booing? Okay I didn’t see that.
Considering the Emirates Cup are the two days where people who can’t afford a season ticket or regular matchday prices attend I think you’re wrong.
But it’s irrelevant. I can tell you to give it a rest when you cast a generalisation about who does and doesn’t know football depending on what clothes they wear.
You go on to say you have gone from hob nails to suits….so you would be part of the group of fans (if attending the Emirates) who you assume know nothing about football because you can afford it?
I know Plumbers who charge more an hour than I do as an Accountant. I’d guess if it’s their passion they could afford a ST easily. They wouldn’t fit with your stereotype either.
Where I agree with both Herb and Gn5 (up to a point) is that AA does have something of a bias towards articulacy.
The regulars tend to like people who can form and express an argument (which covers all of us currently enjoying this debate). Some other sites tend to attract the ‘hit and run’ merchants, many of whom leave a badly written and often unintelligible diatribe then disappear.
I’m glad there are sites that cater for those people, but in the great swathes of Arsenal blog sites it’s not so bad to have one that values clear expression.
Articulacy does have some connection to factors such as earnings and parental background, but only partially. There are plenty of extremely articulate people who have low paid jobs or no jobs at all. I’m sure many AA contributors come in to that category.
By the same token there are many people who are wealthy, well educated or both but can’t string a sentence together.
26m
No my friend that’s the hob nailed boots side of me.
Remember we revert to kind when pushed……..
Gn5
If you went to the Ems for the first game of the season you would see some differences, but you would see tens of thousands of fans who would look and sound pretty much just like the ones you remember.
Rocky;
Given my background (leaving school at 13) I’ve never really cared too much about being articulate or being grammatically correct or using the correct punctuation. But I do enjoy a good dialogue and will always try to hold my own.
I really believe that AA is one of the superior football blogs, but as is obvious I am seldom a 100% supporter for all of the reasons that I’ve stated over the past 8 months.
I should really get some sleep….nite all
Thanks Rocky, think I’ll pass. And thaks Gunner.N5.
GiE often composes quality posts, but he does have that bullying aura about him. He’s done it to me before, (when I was last on here) and,got it completely wrong, which was part of the reason I left.
Goodnight all.
Gn5
That’s fair enough.
I like chatting with you, even though we clearly don’t agree on some things.
VCC was in Niagara at the weekend. I hadn’t realized he was here (and in any case was moving house).
If you ever find yourself in TO let’s grab a beer.
Trust me when Ches and Kos got confused in February I was as inarticulate as the next man 😀
Background wise you might find me not so different from yourself 🙂
great post GiE.
I just think its amazing how so many fans forget performances so quickly. Players get a bad wrap and it seems to stay with them for the journey. For instance fabianski: last year he had a very good run in the team, his confidence was up and it was showing in his performances (vs the wolves anyone?). No matter what though he is another player who some fans won’t support, but rather wait for the erro so they can jump out and say “I told you so” (pretty much the reaction some fans do with the team also, its as though some want the mighty gunners to fail just so that they can gloat about their opinion being right).
As for 6’3 i can’t believe it, i definently thought he was of the given mould and alot shorter. He is definently an adequate backup and should be given cup games to further develop!
As for almunia, im forced to say a regular line that pops up on this site “if almunia plays in goals for 1 minute this season (for the mighty gunner) i’ll eat my own scarf”
Nite GiE
Herb.
I don’t know if GIE is a bully but maybe he thinks he’s the prosecutor and we are the defendants.
Rocky;
My wife’s mother passed away last week at 99 years old so my time was occupied in our mutual grief and making arrangements to fly her over to Chester fot the funeral.
🙄
Sorry for challenging your opinion I’ll accept it as gospel next time and won’t offer any challenge.
Herb…always the victim
“I’ve never really cared too much about being articulate or being grammatically correct or using the correct punctuation”
i’d like to think most people wouldn’t take that into account when reading an opinion on here (within reason eg those who always have caps on). English should not be a guage for one’s intelligence (my english is woeful and isn’t helped by coming on here either before bed or as soon as i wake. However that never stops me from getting exceptional scores at uni).
Personally those who look down on others because of their english (regardless of how good their opinion is) should get a life! Not saying there are any on here
Damn time difference. I’m going to have to resort to a vampire like sleep pattern just to get a word in on here
GIE:
It’s way past your bedtime, now you just being insulting.
Sorry to hear that Gn5
GiE,
Thanks for a stimulator of a postage.
Sz No.1 for me, however, to Rocky camp it slightly I would always find room for someone who is better than what we have, so then it comes down to prioritising, and for me the GK slot is down in 6th positon on my list.
Regarding last nights debate on class and football. I still find it one of the few facets of life that trannscends the class divide. Long may that continue.
When I were lad I used to live in cardboard box under motor way…….luxury. But you know what? I still found money for season ticket.
Arsenal may face the embarrassment of taking two team photographs on Thursday – one with and one without Cesc Fabregas. The club are believed to be weighing up the idea ahead of their official photoshoot. It would mean one picture including Fabregas, who is believed to want to move to Barcelona, and one without their current captain – leaving vice-captain Robin van Persie to wear the armband.
Full story: Daily Star
Embarrassment? Yes it certainly is that.
Morning all
Interesting debate last night about class, articulacy and football.
I have always loved football but I love lots of things that could be described as tribal – I love being part of a group that has many in it’s number. There are always people to talk to about football, not just about Arsenal. Being a female means that mostly blokes think that either I don’t have a valid opinion or I’m just there for the eye candy.
I probably wouldn’t go into a pub on the Blackstock Road normally but on match days it feels perfectly normal. I am a bit of a princess so just the kind of supporter that gunnerN5 would have strong feeling about but nevertheless I am a gooner and will defend my right to be part of this great club.
Who we are and where we come from has nothing to do with our feelings for Arsenal – we are all gooners.
Peaches,
At least you turn up in Stiletto’s and not Hobnail Boots.
London,
Cardboard box? Lucky.
Anyone else think its a fair comment to suggest that we need to sell in order to buy? When I say “need” I mean policy.
Micky – you are wrong! I have never seen Peaches in stilletoes, but I have seen her wearing DocMartins and shabby jeans in a white van 🙂 She looks really cool in them 🙂 But deep down she is a proper princess
Hi Micky – Rasp has been saying for a while that we won’t buy anyone until we know whats happening with regard to Cesc and Nasri therefore yes – our policy is that we won’t buy until we have money from sales i reckon.
And here is something that wont surprise you…….I disagree.
It makes sense that the club want to know where they stand after the Nasri and Cesc decisions are finally made but I see no reason what so ever for the club to hold off strengthening the defence in form of signing Jagielka for example.
Oh Evonne,
Don’t shatter the illusion, although there is something about a woman in DM’s!
Peaches,
I can understand that losing Cesc/Nasri would require big funds to replace like quality, but I still believe that irrespective of that situation, the side could have been freshened up while balancing the books/net spend through cunning deals that would have addressed the squad weaknesses.
Mmmm, does that meke sense?
Well, apart from Everton wanting more than he is worth, that is.
Micky,
I have made the ‘sell to buy’ point continually thorughout the summer and wrote about it in a post ……
Sorry about the “meke” sense, but I am typing blind at the bottom of the reply box. Bloody thing.
Rasp,
Ooops, that’ll learn me
Morning all.
I will try again.i have tried on 5 seperate occasions to get involved in debates these last 5 weeks without one reply.
It saddens me to read some of the comments on here last night but I won’t bother to explain unless you want me to as i was one of the original posters that first posted on AA and now I feel the ethos has changed and i am a complete outsider.
I wear my heart on my sleeve, am emotional and not in the best of health,but i feel if I go against the majority on here with my thoughts it will go unnoticed.Intelligence and maturity are two different things,some people never achieve either.If you really want me to respond I will, some won’t like my feelings about the state of the club, but not now because a new post will go up soon and everything i say will not be read.
As regards last night’s debate where some people were trying to make a link between, class, education, wealth and support for Arsenal, I can only say that I know supporters who come from all those groupings and can see no connection.
As far as the fact that people on here tend to be competent at expressing themselves coherently – what’s wrong with that? We said at the outset we didn’t want to be a clone of other blogsites.
It is clear that Arsenal want to manage a self sustaining ship but the board are not that small minded to not realise that if the ship has a hole in it then money needs to be spent to mend it even if it means going into debt because, obviously, that hole could cause the whole ship to go down.
The defence is the hole in the ship, the only reason they have not spent on it up until now is that they don’t think it will sink not because they are waiting for funds from the sales of Nasri or Cesc both of which, it is worth remembering, could stay.
Morning kelsey, good to hear from you. Today’s post is a joint offering from London and myself and is one which I hope you might like to debate with us.
My uneducated guess is that the sell/buy negotiations are ongoing and it is just the final outcome that we the punters are still missing. I have no doubt that the transfer window is not closing down for us, quite the opposite – it is beginning to open as we speak.
I had a chat yesterday with a half-wit working in a factory, well he bought the factory now, who claims ‘to know for certain’ that Nasri is staying and Jagielka’s joining us soon. There is also a player from Germany under negotiations; who could that be: Schwainsteiger, Podolski or Lamb?
Kelsey,
I am really confused. As a latecomer to the site, I have always seen you as intergral part of AA. What has changed in your opinion?
As probably the least optimistic poster and therefore something of an outsider to the general drift, I still feel welcome.
Thank you rasp.
just out of interest one of kroenke’s latest proposal is to put a roof over the Emirates and hold pop concerts.
Frankly I was too shocked to respond to some of the comments from last night. It is outrageous to suggest that working class people are inarticulate; it is an insult to all of those hard working and underpaid, who are labelled ‘inarticulate working class’. Shame, shame, shame.
Hiya Kelsey – xx
@9:10 – joke, init?
Evonne,
A German? Now that would be exciting. Mertesacker?
Micky,
I will explain after the new post goes up.Things are not as rosy at the club as many think and if want a label i am a realist.
Evonne,
No it’s not a joke,he is seriously considering it for extra revenue.fact.t.
Last night struck me as being one massive misunderstanding, I am glad I missed that one.
Kelsey,
Cool. Can’t wait to hear your thoughts.
If the result was that we got better players I wouldn’t mind if they turned the Emirates into a zoo when the team weren’t using it.
London,
What a diplomat
Now there is something I am not often called. Argumentative bastard is the one that rolls of most peoples tongues 😉
Harsh but fair, harsh but fair! Not to mention the man with the cast iron constitution. Nothing he can’t devour 🙂
London @9:16 🙂 🙂
There’s already been concerts at the Emirates i.e. Bruce Springsteen 2008.
New post …….
chas, you know very well that wasn’t the point.We had Cooper fight at Highbury. The purpose of the post was that kroenke is considering spending money on a roof when I would rather hear in investment in players.
Are you supporting Arsenal or Szczesny,because Manone has kept for us 10 times and he never loose a match for us moreover he won man on the match twice during these shot period.
Everyone was talking Szczesny up af if he is the ultimate and the rest are just followers,but this is not true.
Manone was given a small chance and he took it well but he seems unlucky by not been recognised,he even won man of the match at hull while on loan last season,while Szczesney was going true dark patches for us on many ocations.
Give Manone and Szczesney chance to proove themselfs and let the better candidate be our keeper of the day.
The rest can follow.
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