Another season draws to a close. A season that had begun with the fans believing anything was possible is ending with blatant dissatisfaction among many of the supporters and a vociferous angry minority demanding the departure of Wenger.
As a long-term supporter, it is difficult not to be amused by the appearance of the gathering anger clouds. A storm in a Carling or FA cup perhaps. In today’s money driven football world, both of these competitions are regarded as second-rate by the top cubs. Somehow, despite lacking the prestige of years past, they have assumed an importance in supporters minds far in excess of their actual worth. A pot is a pot in the fans eyes; whilst any pot other than the league or CL is insufficient return on investment as far as the board is concerned.
So what do we think the directors require of Arsene Wenger? Well, the Champions League is of course where it’s at, anything else is nowhere. Top four in the premiership is the specific target, first would be nice, top three preferable, but top four critical and non negotiable. Miss that and unless you win the CL itself, the manager’s position might just become less secure.
So how to achieve that? A squad reorganisation is inevitable, two or three players in, with probably half a dozen or more moved on from a mixture of, the first team squad, loanees and reserves. Some big names I fear will be among those that leave, as Arsene raises the money to refresh the squad from outside.
We all have our ideas as to who should come and go and the shopaholic’s fury will know no bounds if in their enlightened opinion insufficient money is made available, to fulfill their expectations. After all, they will say, ticket prices have gone up and the debt gone down and yet, the board, still pleads poverty.
Expect then, demands from this section of the clubs supporters that we must enthusiastically embrace our Red and White Russian. Who is not only the companies second biggest shareholder, but has again this week reiterated his earnest desire to strengthen the squad, by making sufficient money available immediately, to provide Arsene with the financial clout to compete on more equal terms for the big new players, in the upcoming close season bunfight. These players are the stuff of fans dreams at present, necessary as they see it for the success they crave, but way beyond our reach in the current scheme of things.
The price for our Knight in shining armours largesse? Just the seat on the board he feels his investment deserves. And why not? After all, he is, according to the Sunday Times rich list, the second richest man in the country. Why, they will say, don’t we take his money as others have done and are doing from their foreign benefactors? The antipathy of the board towards both that suggestion and the gentleman concerned will lead to interesting times I feel.
Strange then that not so long ago Kroenke our new American owner himself was told he was not welcome by our illustrious chairman and now owns 62% of the shares and a seat on the board. So the board itself faces a fight from without it seems and how that will turn out is anybody’s guess.
The upcoming transfer window will, I think, be hectic, as our main rivals spread their millions around. The challenge for them all, is the same as ours, a top four minimum finish with the financial rewards it generates and the self-sufficiency that brings.
With the added proviso of course, that for City and Chelski it is a little different, as winning the CL is the avowed personal goal of their owners for which they are prepared to pay regardless of cost.
This is not to say that Arsene and the board do not want to win it. Of course they do, desperately, but must do so within the confines of a sustainable budget and with an eye for the financial future.
Not what most fans want to hear I fear. But regardless of the propaganda the club’s publicity department feeds to the market place, the bottom line is, like it or not, that it happens to be the truth.
Written by dandan
Arsenal News 24/7
arsenalarsenal.net 
I reckon we could do a Theo post a week for the next three months 🙂
Morning all
Thanks dandan for reminding us that the board have just the one objective – to maintain a good business model.
But surely a football club should have other objectives too – will we ever be able to find a balance?
I wan’t these co called Gooners to stop ringing Talk Sport moaning about our team that station loves it keep it in house
Great post DanDan, as always you are the voice of reason and balance.
We might not have the unlimited checkbooks of Chelsea or ManC, but what is more important is that we do not need to sell our top players in order to survive. If we are selling a top player, it will only be one, and it is done because we want to, not because we have to.
good post Dan dan.
I’m not going to second guess whats going to happen in the summer as my expectations are usually high and hopeful and i get dissapointed. I’m not worried about who leaves even the big guns, i just want to see change for the better. I still support the business model and would like to see it continue. i just want to see them iron out our obvious faults that any of us lowly fans can blatently see.
I am now a Chav as I want the CL more than anything. So for Micky it is electric gates, gold bling, a stupid watch and a total disregard for good taste.
“MOST DEFINITELY WENGER OUT, AND LET’S MAKE A FRESH
START”.
Sorry dandan,
Bad manners is a fundamental character trait of the new me. Thanks for the post. I think it will be interesting, and I hope not distructive, to see how the SK/AA power struggle/teamwork pans out.
dandan:
The voice of reason as always.
however I understand that there will be more changes than ever this Summer and kroenke is flexing his muscels to give Arsene a gentle kick up the arsenal 🙂
stevedot,
How about three astute signings, back to winning ways with plenty of bling.
Oh Kelsey,
You know so much more than you are letting on.
Depressing read Dandan as what you are saying here probably sums up the Arsenal philosophy.
Its a philosophy I disagree with because a club of Arsenal’s stature should also be aiming to win things not just remain in the top 4.
Silverware and financial prudence need not be mutually exclusive!
Kelsey,
I think we need to pop over your way and fill you with nine pints of truth syrum.
Morning Dandan,
That post blows the wind of reason, followed by the gentle post of uncommonsense.
Do some fans really think that we should potentially bankrupt the club to win a trophy…..then what.
Do some people really beleive that having made 2/3 signings at the most over the last few years we are suddenly going to buy 5/6/7 players ???…it’s not going to happen
What we KNOW will happen is this
a) there will be untold ‘stories’ this summer about Cesc/Nasri/Asharvin…take your pick
b) we will be written off as falling outside the top 4 as Liverpool and Citeh are heralded as the new super powers
I would like to see a tangible difference in how the TEAM defends in open play but particularly set plays
I would like to see us actually start scoring from corners
I would like to see Van Persie/ or someone else actually score from a free kick
I would like to see whoever goes on the pitch do the job they are paid to do to the required standard EVERY game, or at least be seen to be trying to.
I would like Wenger to show more respect to opposition threats
None of the above things are reliant on us spending massive amounts of money, but players who are not cutting it need to be let go earlier imo
mickythechav – Why are you so far away? You should be up here knocking on SK’s door and pleading with him to deliver the Champions League 😉
Hi Dandan, 🙂
As I read the post, without knowing the author, I knew it was you! 🙂
Well put, well explained and sure to set all the rabbits running.
Deep down I have a well of cynicism that sometimes wells up and has to be vented.
There is a saying that the last refuge of the scoundrel is to wrap himself in the country’s flag. (or words to that effect).
Hicks and Gillette tried to do something similar at ‘Pool, by claiming they wanted to run their club with the same self sustaining financial model as Arsenal.
Well, it seems to me, observing from afar, that their interest was rather more about the profits they could extract for themselves, from that club, having loaded ‘Pool with the debts they incurred in financing its purchase. OK, they seem to have failed miserably but that does not diminish the impression they gave about their true intentions.
I feel very uneasy when I hear the ‘tight budgetary, self sustaining model’ argument that gets reeled out to all the long suffering fans when they see their ticket costs going up, immediately after Kroenke buys a majority holding.
The ‘financially prudent’ way to run a company is a ‘truism’. That is to say it is an inarguably sensible statement that does not bear contradiction, but there are ramifications to this philosophy.
First, the financially prudent concept ensures that the shareholders are rewarded financially for their investment by observing fundamental economic and accounting laws, allied to entrepreneurship. And nothing wrong with that!
Secondly, it is also necessary to recognise a fundamental imbalance in a footballing environment where the ‘normal’ rules of competition are widely and wildly distorted, by sugar daddies, or state aided funding for certain clubs, with complete disdain for those clubs working in a budgetary responsible manner.
(Forget Platini’s attempt to level the playing field — there are too many powerful vested interests for that to work!).
The inevitable conclusion has to be drawn that the fans of a self sustaining financially viable club are doomed to never ‘winning’ the trophy prizes that will surely fall to those clubs who can cherry pick the best players,regardless of cost or financial sustainability, unfettered by sensible economic or accounting restrictions.
This is OK too, if the authorities accept this is permissable.
But those fans, like Arsenal’s, who support clubs which are on the side of the Angels, must realse this ‘truism’ also, and not be misled into thinking their clubs can compete, and win trophies, in the long term, in this desperately unfair environment.
See what you have sparked off Dandan? 🙂
Wonderman – can’t you get a coaching job at Arsenal please
well said wonderman, particularly about freekicks, theos improved, he should practice all summer, a decent freekick taker would be undroppable, especially with the amount we get around the box.
wow excellent comment Red… 🙂
when are you going to write a post?
Red Arse the sugar daddies you talk of are a reality and are not going away anytime soon. What Arsenal needs to do is react to this or forget about winning trophies altogether.
Noone is asking Wenger to bankrupt the club. What we need is spending the money that we are told we have on better quality players than some of the ones we currently have.
In business you need to accept reality in order to remain competitive. The reality is that players cost money! We have sold players in the past for good money ie Adebayor, Toure but have been to miserly in utilising it to bolster the squad at the expense of silverware.
Hey Gunnerzim, it is a little more suttle than that. Finishing in the top-4 is a necessity for the club to balance the books, and to both keep our players and attract new quality players. A lot of fans take this as our only objective, which is rubbish. Do you really think the BoD say to Wenger ‘ah don’t worry about winning anything, we don’t care, just finish in the top-4’?
The annoying thing is we could have strengthened the squad without new investment, like with the money from selling Adebayor and Toure, we have have been so close but unwilling to just get that bit extra we needed to close-up games and not concede last minute goals which have cost us. We don’t need to make stupid £30 milion signings like Chelsea and Man C but if we don’t improve he team our best players will leave and it will cost us more in money and time in the long run.
Come on Arsene/Arsenal, a few winners in this summer eh?
Dandan,
you and I have had words on this before, but there is one line in your excellent piece that is simply incorrect.
In order to differentiate us from the Chavs and City, you say that we
‘must do so within the confines of a sustainable budget and with an eye for the financial future’.
Once again, It is an undeniable fact that there is no more onus on Arsenal to do their work within a sustainable budget than there is on City and Chelsea. It is equally undeniable that there is more monehy in the pockets of the Arsenal shareholding and the club itself than little Roman could ever dream of.
Its is therefore simply wrong to say that we MUST work within such a constraint. Replace the MUST with CHOSE TO, and I cannot argue. But I really do feel that it is completely disingenuous to say that we are under any more obligation to opearate under these so-called ‘self sufficiency’ constraints than anyone else, and that includes City and Chelsea. Arsenals owners CHOOSE to opearate udner these self imposed constraints. Some, such as your good self, agree with this policy and that is up to you. Others, such as myself, see it as the financial equivalent of castrating yourself. Again, that is just my opinion. However, there is no longer any argument from anyone that the resources exist at the club to scatter ‘self-suficiency’ to the four winds if the heirarchy was willing to do so, at least until somebody in authority clamps down hard on the big spenders (believe it when I see it)
It just simply is not factually correct to say we are currently under any more obligation than our rivals to operate in this way. I feel that this kind of misinformation is damaging and would be obliged if you would correct this error.
Great post Dandan.
RA
“The inevitable conclusion has to be drawn that the fans of a self sustaining financially viable club are doomed to never ‘winning’ the trophy prizes that will surely fall to those clubs who can cherry pick the best players,regardless of cost or financial sustainability, unfettered by sensible economic or accounting restrictions.”
Very true if gloomy outlook. I have always held that it will be a very sad day, not just for Arsenal but the football world in general if the Arsenal plan failed.
Hi Peaches, I am sure I have’nt said anything that you and thousands that follow our beloved club cant see . It is witnessing these repeated failures without any tangible evidence that we are trying to correct them that frustrates the hell out of all of us
Morning,
Congratulations on a most dandanesque post dandan 😛
I hear everything you are saying, but I wish I could see a bit more ambition and a bit less pragmatism. I understand the prudent financial management, but whatever happened to the ‘speculate to accumulate?
The ‘risks’ we take now are in the form of buying an unknown player from the French 2nd division (and by the way I think Kozzer was an excellent acquisition) why not take a small risk on a couple of players with proven track records? – that alone would not bankrupt the club
Wonderman,
I agree on all your no-cost improvements to our play – do you think we have the personnel to implement them?
Hey RA, you are the other voice of reason! Reading DanDan and you together is like reading Socrates and Plato 2500 years later.
You said @10.10:
‘The inevitable conclusion has to be drawn that the fans of a self sustaining financially viable club are doomed to never ‘winning’ the trophy prizes that will surely fall to those clubs who can cherry pick the best players,regardless of cost or financial sustainability, unfettered by sensible economic or accounting restrictions’
This is only partly true, as spending a lot of money does often not work, or not work enough (Chelsea CL, Madrid Spanish League, CL to name a few). Obviously, having lots of money helps, but the ‘youth/evolution/spend sensibly’ model can work too, as long as we can hold on to our players and add a couple of sensible yet quality signing every season. There is no guaranteed formula for success, whatever the financial resources a club may have. Let’s keep the faith, the pots will eventually come our way, together with the plaudits.
Hal,
I despair when I read your comments when you take umbrage with the factually accurate and intelligent views of someone like Dandan.
Before you rush back to answer me, take a calming breath, and imagine you are in a Court of Law, where you have to substantiate your comments with facts and not just sweeping statements.
Have you ever read the published Accounts and Balance Sheet of Arsenal Holdings PLC? If so, did you understand them? — Careful, I might question your answer, if I could be arsed! Where are all the monies you claim are in the ‘pockets’ of the shareholders?
Are you aware, that if Silent Stan’s purchase of his shares is extrapolated, the total worth of the Arsenal group is approximately £732m?
Are you aware that the financial worth of Abramovich is conservatively put at some £12 billion?
So the value of Arsenal football club is £0.7 billion, and Abramovich’s wealth is £12.0 billion, meaning his wealth is 17 times greater than the value of Arsenal, and yet you claim; –‘ It is equally undeniable that there is more monehy in the pockets of the Arsenal shareholding and the club itself than little Roman could ever dream of.’ What?
Are you now confusing the ‘personal’ wealth of Arsenal’s shareholders with the ‘company’s’ value?
Oh go and lie down, think about it and come back with a rationale argument, if you can!
My guess is the board think trophies would be nice, but they’re not crucial to the business model, and not if it means spending some of that cash that keeps the share price so high.
The ‘financial constraints’ Wenger is supposed to operate under is also a little hard to swallow when you look at the wage bill. Tbis is how he chose to utilise the playing budget. A success of course if you think top 4 is enough, as the board clearly do.
The point about the club willing to accept over-inflated fees (e.g. Ade and Toure) but not pay them as a point of ‘principle’ is a good one as well.
Beyond monetary arguments there are the issues regarding neglect of the defensive side of the game. It’s not that Wenger doesn’t have the money to work on this on the training ground, is it. He’s just clearly chosen not to.
an accurate assesment of what will happen
one thing before i ask this i want to say i am not in the AKB camp, just a fan who wants to see us add trophys to our sometimes beautiful football. If Arsene goes then who would replace him? dont think for a moment it will be a new messiah to carry us to the promised land, because there isnt one
Morning all glad I was able to bring your keyboards to life so early, 🙂 ….. Hal You might like to read the post again and you will perhaps notice it says, “So what do we think the directors require of Arsene Wenger?
This post is in fact my take on how the directors do view the way forward and I deliberately finished by saying fans wont like it but it is true.
Morning Rasp,
Very good question.
I do wonder how much work is done on defending as a team when I continually see Arshavin and Walcott apply themselves so poorly in this area. Ditto Van Persie’s free-kicks, does he really want us to believe he practices with such a poor return ? Why was Henry so much more successful ?
In short I think we do with a few exceptions, but I really do believe the players need to start pointing fingers at serial under achievers
Hi TA, 🙂
I was not advocating the Manure, Chavs, Citeh, Spurs approach over good old fashioned accounting prudence, just trying to bring some perspective to the argument.
All clubs should play to the same financial rules (as per Platini) and then managers such as Arsene would shine, (he does anyway, of course), and all clubs would have a fair crack at winning trophies.
This current financial imbalance places far too big a handicap on clubs like ours, and the fans have to realise this.
I was not only referring to the EPL clubs, but also the Spanish clubs, in particular, Madrid and Barca who are given all sorts of support and special treatment by local government.
The most recent proof of what money can do, in the EPL, is Citeh. A nothing but a mid table club/team who have started winning this season, and will win more in the next few years, following the input of huge funds by the Sheikh, after following in the footsteps of Chelsea and Manure before them.
I have disparaged Platini’s plan for financial parity, not because he is wrong, but because he is doomed to defeat.
This stuff is not really my bag, but, Stan’s wealth is listed as 2.4 billion dollars, so in pounds only around double the value of AFC. However, it is almost impossible to substantiate this figure as Kroenke Sports Enterprises is based in Delaware where there is no regulatory requirement to file annual accounts.
On the other hand, his Missis is definately worth a considerable amount more. So, Up Walmart I say. Now that really hurts!
Excellent points Jekyll! Some of the ‘prudent financial model’ arguments are total crap. Why accept ‘inflated’ transfer fees for your players when you are unwilling to pay those fees. Those fees are the reality of the current operating environment. Accept them!
I find some arguments here quite condescending. Why ask someone if they have seen Arsenal’s financial statements or if they understand them?? Anyone with proper knowledge of accounting will tell you that there are certain things that you will never decipher from looking at figures alone. Unless you are the Arsenal CFO I suggest you spare us the ‘financial analysis’.
Great article, thought provoking as usual!
With regards specifically to the latest discussion regarding investment in Arsenal FC and transfers etc its probably worth considering the Financial Fair-Play Rules as set by UEFA.
I understand everyone’s frustration and willingness to just rip out the chequebook and sign every star player Football Manager can think of, but it isn’t realistic. “Buying a player isn’t like going to the supermarket”
It doesn’t matter how much money we have, some players just aren’t for sale.
In terms of what Citeh have done with their transfers, they have incurred massive lossed to the tune of hundreds of millions of pounds filling their squad in the last three seasons.
They haven’t replaced that cash through the revenue generated by the club.
The self-sustaining model is the only one that will fly past the UEFA rules as of next season. Sure they will be allowed a deficit for the next couple of seasons whilst they sort themselves out but its not enough to sign the likes of Benzema or Tevez.
Whilst the likes of Hal would like to suggest that we can just throw money at our troubles, it isn’t a model we have ever applied before and I can’t see it happening now.
Kroenke will want results and he’s even dipped into his own pockets to sign players for his other teams, but I’m sure he is very happy with the way Arsenal operate and will not change that.
WG
Rasp.. Don’t let me get you down my friend. Dream your dreams, for truly without dreams life has no purpose or direction. Even now you would be surprised how often I stride out to open the innings at Lords, and if Arsene had seen the hat trick I scored against the Manc’s last week, he would have put a few bob on us for the quadruple next season. 🙂
GunnerZim,
you say that; — ‘Some of the ‘prudent financial model’ arguments are total crap’ — and then; — Anyone with proper knowledge of accounting will tell you that there are certain things that you will never decipher from looking at figures alone –.
Do you ever think before you write? Seriously?
Dandan, quality and astute, will the unreasoned gooner understand the economics, limitations and philosopy of it all? Probably not, as proven by some already “Wenger Out” comments above…
Despite footy fans claiming its not a business but a football club, they should look at leeds as the biggest example of running a PL club as just a football club, financial ruin ensues…….
Although I wouldnt (secretly might just a little) want Alisher to throw 1billion pounds at us and bankroll a thousand unbeaten seasons, I do think a little captial slip into the mixing pot, just to ensure targets are not lost due to the odd million would make sense, surely, even to wenger?
We are not far away, but the frustration is we have been here in the same spot for 3-4 years now, too take that final step whilst maintaining all strategies in place, just needs that little change of direction, maintain the youth process, just add a little guile, strength and experience, then move on the sick lame and lazy……Make it more competitive and we will have a winning team again….
I suppose a question for some would be, would you swap a CL place for a FA Cup win?
Thanks Harry very kind of you….. and your final question is the one I believe all the top clubs would answer with a resounding NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.
You have a very high opinion of your own skewed opinion which is premised on pure speculation.What people are looking at here is spending just a bit more on proven quality and not paying mega bucks to sub standard players such as Denilson, Ebuoe, Squilacci.
Correct me if I am wrong but you are not an Arsenal employee are you?? From what I can see from Arsenal’s financial statements they can certainly afford to spend a bit more here and there to make the team more competitive. Noone is asking Wenger to bankrupt the club.
My understanding is that kroenke will take a more hands on approach not in the way Abramovich has done at chelsea,but will direct AW to buy quality players from within the PL and reduce the soft under belly in the team.How will AW react ?
Kroenke is good at merchandising, and to spread the global interest in arsenal will be his aim, but not many remember the runners up.We need to win a trophy soon, and i also believe that there is more friction and unrest amongst certain players,which has now been going on since Adebayor and Gallas days, and to a degree AW has lost the dressing room, and it shows in his face and actions on the touchline.
how would he react to interference from kroenke who let’s not kid ourselves is only in it to make a profit be it long or short term.
He may eventually sell out to the Russian.
Times are a changing and a happy balance has to be maintained.
Err Zim who are you talking to please?
Red Arse, it is you who is confusing yourself and the way you have invented a completely contrived inappropriate comparison to back up your argument is simply not valid. If YOU will bear with ME for a second…
You are happily able to isolate the worth of the ‘Aresenal Group’ from Stan Kroenke’s personal fortune. Fair enough – its absolutely irrelevant ot what I was saying, but is an accurate assessment of the ‘Arsenal Group’s worth. Yet, in the very next sentence, you blithely trot out a line Abramovich’s personal fortune as 12billion, withouth taking into account that his fortune is divided among a whole host of companies and interests in PRECISELY the same way that Kroenkes is???? Where is your assessment of ‘the Chelsea Group”s value? Nowhere! I wonder what your interest is, that you are so willing to use one method of looking at Arsenal worth, so as to minimise it. Yet in the very next sentence, you use a completely different way of assessing the Russians wealth, when it is subject to precisely the same restrictions and subdivisions? If you dont mind me saying so, to use your court room analogy, you would be turfed out by the judge in disgrace for wasting courtroom time with this type of confused logic. You are blatantly and purposely comparing apples with oranges in a bid to avoid a true comparsion, and I suspect you know it too.
Let me put this simply for you – Nowhere did I say that Arsenal FC was worth more than Abramovich. To compare apples with apples, if you like, you would take teh value of Chelsea Fc and compare it with the value of Arsenal Fc. And that would result in embarrassment for the blues.
Nor did I say even Kroenke was wealthier than Abramovich. I have stated, quite rightly, that the value of the Arsenal shareholders is greater than that of Cheleas. Thats right – Abramovich cannot be compared to Arsenal FC, but he can be comapred to their shareholders, because that is all he is at Chelsea, the owner of all of the shares, nothing more and nothing less. And the value of the Arsenal shareholders dwarves his wealth. FACT. And again, that is comparing apples with apples.
What I have said, all along, is that the wealth is within the hands of the Arsenal shareholders to easily outdo what is done by the Chelsea shareholders (Abramovich). If you wanted to take issue with me, you could argue that our shareholding is not united as Chelseas is, but again thats nothing to do with what I have been arguing. All I have said is that there is more wealth at Arsenal, if a will can be found to use it, than is available to spend. It is a matter for those controlling the club to decide to use it, BUT THE WEALTH IS THERE.
Indeed, events have already taken place which completely nullifies your argument. Or are you simply ignoring the fact that our second largest shareholder, who is INDIVIDUALLY wealthier than Abramovich, has already offered to put the money into the club. So it has therefore already beem demonstrated, not in a comments section, but in the real world, in the boardroom of the wealthiest club in London, that this kind of money is available to Arsenal.,
Or are you going to invent a fiction that that never happened too?
I am talking to Red Arse. Am typing in quite a frenzy!
haha
@ GunnerZim
You call Eboue sub-standard yet 5 years ago he was the best right-back in the world. He doesn’t get played often enough now to maintain match fitness, so to me your judgement is unfair. Yes he falls over too much but he never stops giving 100%.
You seem to be blinded to the fact that because of the stadium move Wenger has had to tie his squad down to longer contracts to ensure he has the players to put a team out if he didn’t have sufficient transfer funds to purchase new.
I’m sure he’d probably reconsider some of those contracts now, but hindsight is a wonderful thing. Two seasons ago I thought Denilson was a good player, even now I think he is a good player, we just aren’t using him enough and he’s shorn of confidence.
Your comments just seem a bit born of frustration rather than reason.
WG
Hi Harry 🙂
Commonsense with a little wishful thinking! 🙂 Me too.
I would not mind either Kroenke owning the club outright, except for a 10% tranche for Arsenal fans; or for Usmanov being allowed on to the Board of Directors, as he owns approx 30% of the club anyway.
The obvious solution to the problem of escalating transfer fees would be the enforcement of Platini’s Fair Play rules.
Failing that, if Kroenke and Usmanov agreed to restructuring Arsenal’s share structure, by increasing its share capital, more shares could be issued to shareholders, raising say an additional £250m which would mean the cash being injected directly into the club’s Balance Sheet, and not breaching its financial sustainability model.
Everyone would be happy as we would have more funds for investment in players — except Stan won’t agree to do this! 😦
@ RA
Silent Stan isn’t daft, by completing that share option he dilutes his stake and he would have to invest more money into the club to keep his stake at the level it is.
I think its going to be more of “Keep calm and carry on” for us Gooners next season.
WG
I certainly am frustrated WG because I do not believe that Arsenal are crap. We are not crap but are very very close to something special. However we have been close for the last 3-4 years but have missed out in exactly the same fashion year after year. There are some small small changes that are needed in the club’s philosophy but noone is making these changes on and off the pitch.
Eboue is a player I detest. He goes to ground very easily and seems to take everything as a big joke.
Its little changes we are talking about here people. Dan Dan and Red Arse seem to suggest that those who want a bit more action on the transfer front are morons who want to bankrupt the club! Nothing could be further from the truth.
Thanks for the post dandan I enjoyed it. I don’t think the FA cup is seen as second rate by shitty yet though. When they win the CL (a strong possibility) they may think that way. At the moment it is thier first trophy since the battle of the Somme. Thier fans are ecstatic.
RA, you are making very valid points. For Citeh, an FA cup and qualification for next year’s CL is the least you would expect for pumping shamelessly the best part of 1/2bn into a club. The next step will be so much harder for them and I so hope they fail miserably.
A good precedent for Arsenal is Ajax in the mid-nineties. Just like us, they build a team from scratch, based on a strong youth policy and on the pure principle of TotalFootball. They won the domestic league and cup and CL in 1995 and lost in the final on penalties to Juventus in 1996. A combination of the Bosman ruling, building a brand new stadium, and an inability to compete with salaries abroad, meant that Ajax did not dominate Europe for years to come, as was perfectly possible, but slowly started to rot away.
The difference for Arsenal is that we can keep hold of our players if we want to, and so once we get it right, we should be able to maintain it for a long time, and compete with the shameless money pumping mega-rich club-owners who just want to buy success for their large egos.
Let me be more controversial, if tomorrow the Arsenal BoD announces that it has freed up £250 million to buy 4-6 top-top quality players, I would be depressed as it is not the way a football club should compete with others, or be operated.
@Hal and RA allow me to mediate.
Hal what you are saying is that the personal wealth of all the share holders of Arsenal i.e Kroenke, Usmanov etc has been documented from indepedent sources to be worth more than Abramovich and in Usmanov’s case have offered to inject funds
RA what you are saying is that Arsenal’s current Market capitalisation stands at circa £732m and that accounts do not show this mountain of cash that Hal alluded to
Looks to me like you are both correct as you are arguing different points.
However I would caution anyone who advocates individuals splashing money in football clubs as this seldom comes without tax saving strings and conditions attached which we only find out about when it ios too late.
Remember Chelsea were once owned by one Mathew Harding who died in a helicopter accident, there were rumours of his widow wishing to withdraw completely from Chelsea therefore leaving them dead !! were it not for Ken Bates there would be no Chelsea.
I am all for spending what we generate, multi ownership and doing our talking on the pitch.
I ask the question if Torres does’nt cut it next season ( and there’s no gaurantee) what next?
Zin, I love the way people twist our words on here, spin they call it, your not Alistair Campbell in disguise are you.
Please take the time to reread the post and you will find I suggest there will be an intake of 2/3 new players.
Sure I laugh at those who suggest we should buy half a dozen of the worlds best players, assuming they are for sale. But then I am not alone in that, most thinking people are amused by such fantasies
Hal,
I do not understand what you are wittering on about.
My Abramovich response referred to your comment on him, and this is what you had written;
— It is equally undeniable that there is more monehy in the pockets of the Arsenal shareholding and the club itself than little Roman could ever dream of—.
[The Arsenal shareholding is the club itself!]
And in your latest;
— (you) blithely trot out a line Abramovich’s personal fortune as 12billion, withouth taking into account that his fortune is divided among a whole host of companies and interests in PRECISELY the same way that Kroenkes is????
[You are blithering man and seem to be arguing with yourself. You brought up Abramovich – not me].
Don’t address me again — I would get more sense out of a brick, and therefore I have nothing more to say to you.
QPR are pretty wealthy. Aren’t there rules to stopp sugar daddies at some point?
Wo, things are getting pretty tetchy here, and all after a typically zen-like and high quality post from the one and only dandan.
Is there really that much to disagree on? Of course the club needs to be financially sustainable, but is it being over conservative and damaging our chances on the pitch as a result?
Maybe it is.
Up until the debt position was resolved in the first half of 2010 (earlier than planned) with the confirmed sale of the Highbury flats, the club was absolutely right to be very conservative about spending. Frankly, the way the stadium and its financing were managed by Keith Edleman and Danny Fiszman is nothing short of exemplary.
But the club is happily now beyond that stage, so the same pressures don’t apply.
The whole point of the stadium move was to increase capacity so that more of us could attend games and generate massively improved revenues to be translated into financial muscle. It was about turning the club into a European superpower, without having to depend on anyone else’s largesse.
The club is now in the first year of being able to enjoy those revenues (i.e. clear of the previous debt commitments). And they are spending a good chunk of it already: the wage bill is high, not the highest around, and still very much in the right proportions versus revenues, but we have a big squad of players who are generally paid over the odds (a strategy to prevent losing them to other teams until and unless we wanted to sell, and therefore the price of squad stability). There is now both a footballing and a financial case for culling that squad.
On the pitch, that squad has shown both its potential and its failures this season, and we all think there needs to be a clear out this summer. That will generate more money, both for transfer fees and wages, and that can be combined with the accumulated, ring-fenced transfer account (balance thought by the AST to be in the region of £40m), so even without money from Kroenke or Usmanov, we will have plenty to spend this summer.
So we don’t need to be reckless in order to do some serious business this summer. The fear many of us have is that the club has got into a groove of buying fantastic but obscure and incomplete players like Koscielny, and are still too defensive in their strategy (winning the title is a like-to-have rather than a must-have). Following the examples of City and Chelsea is a complete dead end, but we can and should start to use our financial muscle to take a very good squad of players up to the level of being the best. And as fans, and as the ultimate source of all this money that disappears into the gargantuan wages of these players and their agents, we have a perfect right to demand that the club now start to show its ambition and determination to succeed.
Wonderman. Shame about ken bates saving the chavs that would have been funny. Thank god the spuds were greedy and he abromovitch) didn’t buy them. Could you imagine?
I’ve just seen a Tevez goal from last night. Very nice.
and a fantastic free kick too
blog fart again 😦
26 @11.48: great summary, I cannot disagree with anything in it. Chapeau!
@GunnerZim: I understand your views on Eboue, but the whole diving critique is out of date – he stopped doing that two years ago. He’s not the best player, but (a) he’s a useful squad player (every squad has players of that quality – look up the squads at Chelsea, United etc) and (b) he has a far more fan-oriented attitude than most of the current squad. Where most of our players (and most footballers generally) show no interest in the fans, wanting to disappear behind their blank stares and their massive surround-sound headphones, Eboue always, always goes round the ground applauding the fans. Frankly, the rest of the squad could learn a lot from Eboue.
Hi WG, 🙂
Your 11:27; my point was that if Stan will not pump more dosh into Arsenal by increasing the Share Capital, and thereby maintaining the club’s excellent budgetary control and financial management, while enabling funds to invest in better players, he most certainly won’t ‘put his hands in his pockets’ to do so, as this would wreck the Arsenal financial philosophy.
TA, I too would be depressed if Arsenal went against everything they have tried to do with financial propriety if they suddenly agreed to spend £250m they did not have. We agree! 🙂 And it will not happen!
Merci beaucoup, Monsieur Total!
On the Platini Fairplay Regs, it’s very easy to be dismissive, but the rules themselves are good. They aren’t drawn up by financially ignorant and naive football bureaucrats, they were developed by a specialist team at one of the world’s most prestigous accountancy firms, Deloitte. But the Regs will only have their full effect if UEFA have the guts to enforce them, i.e. keep the likes of Man City out of European competition if the criteria are breached. It’s not clear to me they will enforce as they should, but it is possible.
GM, interesting you should mention the Spuds as they intrigue me as the last few years they have avoided operating losses by selling players. No doubt being in the chams league this season has helped but I suspect if they dont get a new stadium soon they will be in trouble
(13*2) — Did you notice she is back in ‘House’? 🙂
The Platini Rules have been drawn up by an excellent firm, but the Chavs, Citeh and others also have very able professional advice.
You may have noticed that Abramovich has already started his Chelsea response to those impending rules. He has converted a large chunk of the ‘loans’ he made to the club, to buy players, into share capital, thus restructuring their Balance Sheet.
[A bit like I was suggesting may be a solution for Arsenal by bringing Usmanov on board, (literally), and injecting some immediate funding, quite legitimately.]
Wonderman.
Yes,close enough. But when you say Arsenals accounts do not show a mountain of cash, I am not saying that they do either. In respect of that point alone, I am saying two things:-
1. The accounts do not show mountains of cash ( but they do show that, relative to other clubs, as commercial entities, arsenal are extremely well off. Thus, if we we were to look at the potential ‘self-sufficiency’ of the clubs themselves, then Arsenal are head and shoulders above pretty much everyone else.
2. As we all know, its not that simple, nor are the playing fields so level. However, the combined wealth of the Arsenal shareholders is capitalised as second only to Man City’s. Not by me. By the Sunday Times I believe. Outside of what the club makes itself, it is the Shareholders that are the other source of POTENTIAL investment. Indeed we already know that at least one of our shareholders is eager to put his money where his mouth is. So events have proven that the money is available to Arsenal. It is nothing more than the choice of the shareholders as a group (as evidenced by the boards rejection of Usmanov’s financial package) that is preventing them from taking it.
So both from the point of view both of what the club makes itself, and from the amount of money available to its shareholders, Arsenal have more wealth than any club bar Man City. This is all based on information that is in the public domain. Of course there may be differences between various elements on the board, but as custodians of our club, that is something they must resolve.
And I apologise to Red Arse if my using the term Shareholding as opposed to Shareholders confused him. Taking this into account, my argument is valid. I dont pretend to be as elequent as some of you in here, but the bottom line is that every single piece of information available demonstrates that Arsenal have the money avalable. We are probably one of the, if not the, most organically profitable club out there. And our shareholdERS (the de facto owners of the club) are wealthier than anyone but Man City’s.
This is no disgrace in admitting this surely. If the club wants to opearte a self sufficiency model, that is up to them, and we can agree or disagree with it.
To say that this is somehow more of a financial necessity for Arsenal than it is for Chelsea is simply not true. It is choice, pure and simple.
GM: Re QPR, since the UEFA Regs only kick in if the team qualifies for European competition, I assume they’ll be irrelevant to QPR for the foreseeable future. So it’s a question of what the FA and the PL do.
And frankly, they are utterly pathetic. Richard Scudamore at the PL has presided over a shameful period, in which endebtedness has not only been allowed, it has implicitly been encouraged. All the PL has come up with is the weediest of disclosure rules on who actually owns clubs behind offshore companies etc, and even that regime was brought in late and under sufferance. The Football League has a better system for god’s sake.
Anyone who saw the not-too-bad Alan Sugar documentary about football finances the other week will have seen some of this spelt out. The English football authorities are shockingly complacent, and the sooner these bastards are chucked out and we get a sensible Bundesliga-like system in place, the better.
Wonderman,
Sorry, I forgot to thank you for your earlier attempt to mediate.
I was responding, initially, to a criticism of Dandan’s post, but, regrettably, I allowed my exasperation to show.
It was totally pointless anyway, and I will restrain myself in future. 🙂
It’s more fun to argue with 26, but he has been absolutely spot on lately! 🙂
@RA: Please, don’t start me on Thirteen in ‘House’, I’ll only become lecherous! But yes, I had seen that she’s back…
Quite right re Abramovich, he has started the process of putting everything in place so Chelsea don’t violate the Regs. The funny thing was hearing Platini say that Abramovich was one of those lobbying UEFA for theRegs to be brought in – pots, kettles etc!
The interesting question will be how City will respond. We all expect them to embark on another blitz of the transfer market, but they do have problems in terms of balancing the books. They’ll need to sell a lot if they want to spend a lot and stay the right side of the line. That’s all assuming the Regs are actually enforced of course.
Hal,
I have broken my earlier decision not to chat to you, because your comment at 12:13 is well thought thru’ and though I do not accept that the wealth of individual shareholders and the market value of the club should or can be treated as one, I can now better undeerstand where you are coming from.
My professional background makes me, and others like me, pernickety over details, particularly financial matters, and I apologise if this has caused us to talk at cross purposes.
Perhaps, in future, I will take my own advice, and take a deep breath, and ascertain what was meant, before jumping in! 🙂
26,
My cynicism is well known about the Fair Play Regs, altho’ this is mainly caused by my dislike for Platini the politician.
He is trying to ensure he will be re-elected as UEFA Chairman in the future, and further on become the FIFA President, by sucking up to the smaller nations and leagues, hence the CL pre-qualification rules, however worthy they seem on the face of it.
Please let Platini become FIFA President, there’d be a chance that that disgustingly corrupt and self-aggrandising organisation might be improved.
On CL qualification, the changes are right: a European competition should be truly European, and the competition has become too much of an Anglo-Italian-Spanish carve up. As Shakhtar have shown this year, and others like Porto have shown in the past, there’s quality elsewhere.
Red Arse,
To tell the truth, I do understand your frustration at a level. I imagine its quite infuriating to come onto a football site and see us layfolk arguing about something the types of things you are intimately familiar with. i only try to put together some kind of a story out of the information that is is the public domain, I dont come onto sites like this that often, and I certainly dont want to fight with fellow fans (debate ok, but not fall out). Its a funny time to be an Arsenal fan – there appears to be more ill feeling towards our own than to other clubs, and I suspect it comes down to frustration.
I just feel strongly that there is a perception that we are still in the same position we were three or four years ago, before the Lroenke and Usmanov share purchases and when we were genuinely labouring with the interest repayments. It needs to be appreciated that we have moved on from that. And to tell the truth, I think that the club itself must take a lot of blame. They are not great at rallying cries and getting fans united or, indeed, exited about the future. I dont think any election has ever been won with the war cry – ‘were gonna do exactly the same thing as we’ve been doing for the past 5 years’, so Kroenke and Co. could work on that a bit.
Anyway, no hard feelings on my part. At the end of the day, we all still want success for the Arsenal – I look foward to cheering along with your good self when Benzema scores his third goal for Arsenal in a 4 nil hammering of Barcelona in next years CL final!!!!
26,
Not against expansion of the CL entry pool, in principle, as the competition is already a misnomer.
But, I think to make it truly ‘European’ wide there would have to be a pre-qual ‘knockout’ open to all clubs finishing 1st or 2nd in their respective national premier leagues.
Won’t happen tho’, because TV ratings would plummet and no one will advertise with them, and we all know the name of the game is …….. money!
Oh, cynical me!! 🙂
Hal, 🙂
Well said.
You have made me feel bad, all over again, that I sometimes forget I am talking to fellow fans on here, just as committed as I am, and not in an office knocking ‘technical’ spots off the ‘opposition’.
Sorry, again!
A lot of the stuff that’s going on here today seems to based on whether we allow a cash injection from Usmanov or whether we continue with self sustainability.
My view is that for the good of the club, and it’s continued integrity, that we operate as we have done and spend what we can generate rather than accepting a handout.
If we accept a handout we are then beholden to Usmanov. Say he bankrolls £100m of transfers, what does that guarantee? Nothing. Look at Chelsea, £50m for Torres = 1 goal + no trophies. Another example are Tottenham. They’ve a net spend of over £90 million in ther past 5 season yet they’ve only qualified for the Champions League once.
The fact is that not everything is solved by big transfers. It’s not how our success has been built and I’d be uncomfortable if we changed that. We’ve spent the Chelsea and City years criticsing them for doping the game yet we now have fans who want to jump into bed with anyone who offers us a bumper pay cheque.
I’d rather carry on as we are but work harder on the field to right the wrongs that have stopped us winning trophies. One day the Football bubble will burst and we’ll still have a club to support.
Finances aren’t a fun thing to talk about when we’d all rather speculate on Fantasy Football transfers but it’s part of the modern game. You can’t just demand something and fail to understand all the implications of it.
Please, think about the future implication before you dismiss sustainability and argue for lavish expenditure. It comes at a price and more than just a financial one.
After this mornings misunderstandings, and because TA will ask me about poetry, anyway, ( 🙂 ) I thought a sad little snippet from Thomas Hardy may be appropriate!
“Two linked loiterers, wan, downcast:
Some heavy thought constrained each face,
And blinded them to time and place”.
He is suggesting the tragedy and regret of human life as it effects us all! 😦
Jokes later! 🙂
Hal, RA glad to see you two have kissed and made up.
@Smith 14
‘I’d rather carry on as we are but work harder on the field to right the wrongs that have stopped us winning trophies. One day the Football bubble will burst and we’ll still have a club to support.’
Spot on my friend. I would also like to add, there is so much going on behind the scenes that fans never get to hear about, yet assume it is not happening because they can’t see it. Irrespective of what model we adopt had our players defended properly in 5 or 6 key games, would have been champions…not that far away in my opinion
Smith14,
I empathise with your view, in that if every club spent hundreds of thousands on players, a la Citeh and Chelsea, there can still be only one winner of the EPL and one winner of the CL, so spending big money will not and cannot by definition guarantee success.
On the other hand the disappointment and frustration of fans who love our club and want to see them at the pinnacle is also understandable. I for one would love to be able to celebrate and brag about our success as I unashamedly have done in the past.
Not spending on ‘special’ players is seen as the reason we have not won anything for 6 years, and this is probably true, but to do so would cost huge money in this inflationary footie world, and I would not like to see us endanger the long term future of our great club.
My solution, mentioned above, was to try and square the circle, and to generate the necessary funds to buy 2 or 3 world class players, all without breaching the club’s financial probity, would be to restructure the Share Capital and issue more shares, to the fans, to the existing shareholders or to new investors, thereby injecting liquid funds into the Balance Sheet without upsetting its budgetary controls and to avoid being the ‘toy’ of one individual.
RA
That is a fantastic idea re issuing more shares and probably the way forward
Im off for awhile
Smith 14 good call, well done.
I like hal’s 12.46pm, lots of good points in there.
Poetry and economics. There definitely isnt another club that could marry the two in one comments page.
Smith14, my issue with self-sustainability is that it should be viewed as an ideal, but not as a dogma. Because we are doing relatively well financially at the moment, we are in a position to countenance the possibility of running the club without extra funding. My fear is that that will not always be the case. I think many of use can sense the trapdoor of 5th place is looming somewhere beneath our feet in the next few seasons. So if we are looking at an absolutist adherance to self sufficiency, we may, all of a sudden, have to budget for say 20-30 million less for slipping one place in the premier league table. I dont see how the club can safely plan for a self sustainable future when such a massive hole could be blown in our income simply for slipping one place in the table. In this case, a complete reliance on the self sufficient model would become an unwanted albatross around our necks. So I would like the club to aim for self sufficiency, but to make everyone aware that, should circumstances arise, the clubs owners would have no problem in making up the shortfall caused, for example, by our failure to make the champions league. If no such provision is made, and the club had to be completely self sustainable, then failure to make the CL for one season could be genuinely disasterous. It would probably require, for example, the sale of LJW and such a lack of ambition could see both the results of the club (and, importantly for the owners) its value, spiral downwards.
I think therfore that some pragmatism needs to be added to the vaunted ‘self-sustainability’ model. If the manager needed funds to mount a return to the CL after a season of failure, the club should most certainly facilitate him, even if this deviates to some degree from absolute self-sustainability. Equally, if this summer the manager decided that he needs money to ensure CL football into the future (whehter this is for higher contracts for cesc and Nasri, or for the purchaes of new players), then he must be accomodated.
IT may be the case that the club is already thinking along these line, but the rhetoric does not seem to suggest so. Also, I should add that I am not advocating limitless spending. The opposite in fact. A sensible approach at this stage, while we are in a position of strength would likely stave off any worries such as falling out of the CL places, when there would be a much greater danger of panic buying. I just think that a sensible approach needs to be taken, and for me, it would be sensible to take a pragmatic approach to self sufficiency.
Red,
All good points, I wouldn’t look to argue with any of that. I would however echo Wondermans view above that regardless of world class signings, a bit of work on defending set pieces might have saved us a few points that would put us nearer the top of the table.
I’m as frustrated as anyone at not winning trophies but it really shouldn’t be the main reason anyone supports a Football club. If that were the case everyone would support United and no one would ever bother to attend a Football match outside the top flight. It’s frustrating but life goes on. I just want a club to support each season, the problems that are being discussed in all corners of the internet are being blown out of proportion.
On a final note, and not to big-up my new found friend Red Arse too much, but the final paragraph of his 1.17 post should be taken, cast in gold, turned into a plaque and left outside the Emirates stadium for Stan, Alsiher, Arsene and everyone else to worship as long as they are at the club.
Good solid common sense, and a suggestion which puts the club first. A financial instrument that the fans can see a benefit in – The rarest of all beasts in the corporate jungle we have all been dropped in.
Hurray, Wonderman 🙂
Someone likes the solution, at last! But then you are another flipping accountant. 🙂
Stan the man would not want to do it, because he would be exposed to more public scrutiny and would not be able to take the club ‘private’.
I suspect Usmanov would want to do it as he has made similar suggestions before.
Now, if all the fans could be convinced this is a good idea, we could have a ginger group campaigning for it, and I would propose you and 26 to be joint campaign managers, with GIE to provide the muscle and Peaches and Evonne to provide the glamour! 🙂
[with Dandan to be the Sage!] 🙂
Interesting Post Dandan,
Always one to speak your mind and one that usually isnt the popular consensus.
I think you subtly raised some valid issues re: Embracing the Russian. Which I whole heartedly agree.
But im not sure its completely clear you answered the question.
Where do we go from here?
Hal,
Just read your response.
I have to say it’s all very reasonable and I don’t really disagree; it’s clear that something would have to happen if we didn’t qualify for the Champions League however, we are on course to qualify again. We have the joint best record in Europe of qualifying for the latter stages of the Champions League and I personally don’t see any need to sweat that at present.
As Arsenal fans, we’ve heard the doom and gloom for the last god knows how many seasons that this might be the year that we don’t qualify for the Champions League. Every year we do qualify. Ok, one day that might not be the case but equally, next year might be the one where we win the League. The Premier League is so competetive that either scenario is emminently possible.
My major concern in recent weeks is that there seems to be vitrolic discussion amongst supporters about everything – from finances to new shirts – and it seems to have seeped to the fore since we fell out of the title race. So much of the anger is off the back of not having won a trophy and I find that unreasonable.
My view, as a fan of 25 years, is that our club is run better than pretty much any other. There are improvements to be made but nothing is so broken that it requires a radical overhaul. We’re all upset about results but we do need a bit of perspective.
This exemplifies exactly my point about poison sweeping through the core of the club, the division and ‘nasty’ in-fighting among supporters, when it could all be cleared up by the club itself actually communicating with their supporters exactly where we’re at, and clearly defining where exactly we should pitch our expectations. Wenger has never finished outside the Top four, but by the same token, since Abramovic took control at Chelsea, we haven’t looked like winning the title either. Only Man Utd have been able to go toe-to-toe with them and succeed. Now we can add Man City, which now accounts for the top three places. Had JW Henry and Dalglish started the season in control at Liverpool, we’d probably be fifth. People keep saying “we’re so close, 2 or 3 players away…”, and yet for the past few seasons we’ve seen the season collapse in exactly the same way. There has been very little ‘champagne’ football during that time, and buying the likes of Silvestre, Squillaci, re-signing Sol Campbell and a 41-year old former GK who had retired makes Wenger look desperate, if not a little foolish. If we are truly fighting for the same prizes as Man Utd/City and Chelsea, the club without bankrupting themselves, need to prove this in their player-transfer policy. If we’re not able to challenge them for the same prizes, the BoD at Arsenal are surely duty-bound to ask us collectively to aim our expectations a little lower.
Thanks Hal,
There are always solutions where there is a will, but there are also many greedy sods, with vested interests, who would try to block something like that even tho’ it is financially sound, equitable and would strengthen the relationship between fans and the club and benefit all.
You can see why I am a cynical bugger, can’t you? 🙂
London says:
May 18, 2011 at 8:34 am
26
I respect the fact that you rate Theo more highly than I do, if you think that a player at his age can learn close ball control then so be it but as a solicitor I expected something a little more convincing than “Messi said he fears him”
—————————————-
Mr. Walcott’s numbers speak for itself.
Before he got injured it was either a goal or an assists a game.
Close control means absolutely fuck all in the overall picture.
If that was the case, A player like Adebayor wouldnt be playing for Madrid.
London: As far as pro-Walcott arguments are concerned, I had already set out a few points (around 2pm yesterday), the reference to Messi (cited merely as an example, as I said). Plus I referred to Ghost’s points and said I’d agreed. So there was a bit more to what I said than you acknowledged.
Not that I really mind, gives another chance for a pop to be made at lawyers! 🙂
Lots and lots of discussion.
We can’t see the wages of other clubs until probably July/August or later when Deloittes post up the info. I think we should take a rain check on the criticism of our wage structure until we know the rest of the market place.
Some have aid they font expect 2/3 players at £30m but want Wenger to spend sensibly, well he has done that in recent years and anywhere up to £10m is probably a gamble in this overinflated market. One which can pay off…Hernandez, Koscielny….or one that bombs Bebe, Obertan, Squillacci.
The board will take the view that CL football provides sufficient income to cover the wage bill and debt.
Some have suggested spending £40-£50m will keep us in CL football, what if it’s not enough, what if we speculate and then still fail to qualify, not just speculating in transfer fees but also on contracts with wage demands met for 3-4 years for the new star signings. Which if the revenue dries up become unaffordable…do we dig deeper into Shareholders pockets, will we pay increased ticket prices to see them play?
A fine balance indeed running a football club, perhaps the way forward is to adopt City and Chelsea’s approach maybe we should have put a hotel around the ground or a casino to increase revenues into the club.
A share issue however much business sense will not happen IMO as the existing shareholders will have their stake waned a seat is given to Usmanov.
When the money leaves football…..look at Serie A it can happen where do we go?
Sky do not have to keep throwing money at the PL anymore they have a captive audience who as proven with Setanta and ESPN aren’t bothered about matches on those services. Sky have close to a monopoly and could probably reduce the money they pay to the PL in future.
Ramble over
Looks like we have been saved,the cash machine is starting to roll.Lehmann might stay on 🙂
Were do we go From here .down hill that’s were we will be next season its all down hill from now on with Liverpool on the up and man city we won’t get in the top four .Arsene will keep most of are crap players and will not sign any major signing.you’ll be able to tell they ways it’s going to go if he keeps denilson rosicky eboue bentner and a few others .if he keeps these players at the club he has totally lost his way.arsenal are in big trouble next season mark my words .
Consider your words marked, Mickeyk, the end is nigh.
Ghost face 1:43. Thank you for your comments.
As I have said elsewhere among these posts the article was meant to reflect how I felt the directors were thinking about a number of issues. The question where do we go from here was in fact directed at the blog and our bloggers and as you can see we have had some fine debating.
My own view since you ask is very much that of Smith 14s,GIE, Kelsey and a few other of the regulars. We need some experienced leaders, some up and at em types for when the times get tough. Just 2 or 3 to bring a mental toughness onto the field to underpin AW’s superb football, with a bit of belief that no matter what the opposition or ref does we will overcome. Because we are not far away from some more glory days
Viera+Petite “retribution with pace” are the examples I would quote, plus a finisher to convert 20+ goals a year from the many chances we make.
The financial side is in good hands and I do believe as per Hal’s question that one year out of the top four would in fact be handled with ease by the directors. That does not stop me believing that top 4 is the starting point for each season.
Arsene will be well aware of our shortcoming and new faces will arrive. The defending will be improved, but whether he ops for defensive solidarity as per the English model or collective closing down and ball winning a la Barca as his defensive option, I am not sure.
This summer will surely answer all our questions.
Dandan – excellent summary of the state of affairs at Ashburton Grove. You reminded me of PHW saying a few years ago to Kroenke that ‘we don’t need money from the likes of you’. What changed his mind??
Will Usmanov really make money available to buy players? Why would he do that?
GunnerZim and others – paying silly money does not guarantee an instant success. Look at Torres and 50mil price tag. It takes much, much more to build a successful team than to buy most expensive players.
Michael the Chav – Red Arse is right to blame everything on you!
Arsenal’s money pot is in a fix,
Who should put their money in the mix…..
Self sustain, is the game,
But winning trophies is a must gain….
Alisher is loaded upto his eyes,
Onto the board he thus tries.
Big Stan has a plan whilst
Arsene remains his man…..
Players come, players go,
Steely fire we must grow…….
Loyal Gooner’s are so fed up,
Just want goes on in Arsene’s head?
Falling short at the end, into fourth we slip,
This season is merely a blip, next season, the title we will contend………
Regards, Theo, it really is simple, play to his strengths and he is truly devastating……
Utilise him within the confines of a set rigid format like we do and only see half of him…….
He has weaknesses and has much to learn agreed, but we so stifle him, its actually criminal…But most issues are not his fault……
Oi Evonne,
“Money does not buy success”. Eh, come on gal, what are you talking about. We are going to spend £60m on four players (re-coup about 25 of that in sales) and bingo, we lash out £35 big ones. Pah. That’s small change luver.
Dandan, please stop describing Wenger’s football as ‘superb’. Very rarely do Arsenal produce ‘superb’ football, and never when it really counts.
Oh no, that won’t do at all. My bad. I meant £80m.
He’s plain common that chav bloke, and Evonne, don’t listen to RA.
Dandan
Thanks for your reply. Excellent post.
I am actually quite shocked i find myself agreeing with 95% of what you’ve said.
Ive always felt we were 2 or 3 quality players from getting us to where we need to be.
Where we differ, and this is obvious for the sake of debate and nothing meant as derision is that I feel Arsenal have not been able the defensive problems that you say we have.
This is due to Arsene’s philosophy imho. Financial debate aside.
No doubt i will not like to trade this style of football for the world.
But there comes a time where we have to pay attention to the defensive side of things to which Arsene has talked about in numerous occasions and has consistently failed in this area.
Correct me if im wrong. I might be.
And also for the sake of the debate.
I will go a step further to say Im fully convinced Arsene is incapable of fixing the defense or at least I hope so.
If it was that he knew how to fix it and was just being negligent is a far more criminal offense.
HCAA I am sorry but as one who stood on the terraces through almost 60 years of the Arsenal, I feel I am qualified to know good football when I see it, you are of course entitled to your opinion. But then any one reading your posts in recent weeks, would not need to be an Einstein to realise that to call you a glass half empty merchant as far as the Arsenal are concerned would be more than generous. On top of that I was not aware I needed your permission to say anything on here.
Dandan, you definitely don’t need my permission. How can crab-like passing football be superb if it has no end product? You say we are 2 or 3 players in, Lee Dixon reckons we need about 7. Considering this collapse has happened for the last 3 or 4 years, you are obviously easily pleased.
Ghost face, as I said earlier this summer will answer many questions.
Off for dinner now
Micky – I know that Chavs and City bought their trophies. And I hate them passionately for it, but it took them a couple of seasons to win anything. So what I am saying is that even if AW bought some top players (which he won’t do), that won’t guarantee us a trophy next season. And what the likes of GunnerZim are going to say then?
Red Arse recons everything is your fault, I believe him 🙂
HCAA
It’s a bit unfair (and quite fashionable on other blogs) to bring up Lehman. Outside the transfer window we would have to get special permission to sign a keeper and which club woukd ket anyone go without being able to get a replacement?, Lehman was out of contract. Chesney has already said he’s learning from him all the time. I agree that the club and manager treats us like morons sometimes though. (not that that’s exactly what you said).
GM
Quite right re Lehmann, and I agree re the club, they are still (even with Gazidis in post) very poor at communicating or taking our views into account. But I don’t see how Wenger treats us as morons. He has his own views on how to assemble and run a successful football team, and we (in our omniscient wisdom) often disagree, but is that really treating us like morons?
26
Morons may be a bit strong. Some of the things he says like “if I buy so and so I’ll kill Denilson” I’d kill Denilson myself. We always hear about how we nearly bought(insert world class player here) or we were tracking so and so. He says he didn’t think TV was going to be out for long but Samba says Arsenal made an approach for him.
With respect to Lee Dixon he isn’t a successful manager so I wouldn’t take it as gospel. 3 players or 7 players the result will be the same unless we get over some basic mental attitudes. Maybe we should get paul mckenna
I always manage to clear this place 😦
Cheer up Folks, 🙂
Have I told you the one about the Golfers? Yes? No? Maybe? 🙂
A Catholic Priest, an Indian Doctor, a Chinese Businessman and an Australian were waiting one morning for a particularly slow group of golfers in front of them.
The Aussie fumed, ‘What’s with those guys? We must have been waiting for fifteen bloody minutes!’
The Indian Doctor chimed in, ‘My goodness gracious me I don’t know, but I’ve never seen such poor golf!’
The Chinese Businessman called out ‘Move it, move it, time is money!’
The Catholic Priest said, ‘Here comes George the green keeper. Let’s have a word with him.’
‘Hello, George!’, said the Priest, ‘What’s wrong with that group ahead of us? They’re rather slow, aren’t they?’
George the green keeper replied, ‘Oh, yes. That’s a group of blind fire fighters. They lost their sight saving our clubhouse from a fire last year, so we always let them play for free at anytime.’
The group fell silent for a moment.
The Catholic Priest said, ‘That’s so sad. I think I will say a special prayer for them tonight!’
The Indian Doctor said, ‘Good idea. I’m going to contact my ophthalmologist colleague and see if there’s anything he can do for them!’
The Chinese Businessman replied, ‘I think I’ll donate £50,000 to the fire-fighters fund in honour of these brave souls!’
The Aussie said, ‘Why the F*** can’t they play at night?’
Those Aussies, eh, straight to the point? 🙂
Hi GM, 🙂
In fairness, AW said that in September, he did not think for a moment that TV would be out for so many months. He also thought, in January, that he would be coming back imminently.
Sounds like a medical team screw up to me.
You are right about AW’s off the cuff quotes. I have said many times, he would be better served by not commenting on hypothetical questions, or ‘manage’ the media the way Red Nose does!
HCAA,
It is true that our football has not been up to the usual standard in recent weeks, except for the Manure game.
I think other than that the football this season has been generally very good.
By the way, Dandan deserves respect for his views, so less of the; — ‘you are obviously easily pleased.’
That’s not necessary.
“I’d kill Denilson myself” 🙂
I don’t read much into the “I nearly bought” comments, Wenger’s consistently (and probably deliberately) naive in helpfully answering journos’ questions, and I put these things down to that more than anything.
Re Samba, who knows the truth of whether an approach really was made, or whether any such approach was an enquiry or an offer?
I honestly don’t think Wenger treats fans badly, and neither do I think he goes out of his way to treat us well either. He answers questions from journos, and they use that as material for creating whatever story they want to create. The only thing Wenger does, other than write those fairly bland columns in the programme etc, is make himself available for the shareholders’ Q&A (something other managers don’t do). But then some of the shareholders abused that, so perhaps that won’t be repeated.
All in all, there are plenty of criticisms to make of Wenger but I don’t think what he says to fans is one of them.
We need a post for tomorrow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Did Lehman put a foot wrong when called upon? No….ergo good signing right….also Wilshere and Szczesny have expressed positive views on his introductionto the squad.
Also there has been a lot of talk of losing the dressing room and unrest.
Bac Sag has said today the team is 200% (Maths not his strong point) behind the manager. And that he believes Ceac will stay.
Now Bac could with every right at 28 be looking for a move away, he doesn’t strike me as a player who wants an easy ride, he is competitive and ambitious, he is one of the few who could walk into most sides in the PL (City and Chavs could both use a RB and afford him) yet he is backing the manager.
If there is one criticism of the Board it is that they are engineering the loss of soul throughout the fanbase, the likes of Stoke, Norwich, Portsmouth have support because they are the heart of the community, and a common cause that unites residents.
Arsenal atmosphere and crowd unity suffers from new fans and a more diverse following than most. This benefits the club as it can lead to a young family (like my Cousins) turning up for one game a year and spending a bomb in the club shop.
Peaches,
I’ll do you a Friday Style post, by that I mean of little or no value to the football enthusiast. Email me if you do as I’m off out now, but up at the usual ungodly hour.
Right are we watching young Afobe in the play off semi final or are we watching Europa League final.
Peaches you cleared the blog, I’ll see if I can muster up a post for you.
GM – Paul Mckenna 🙂
It always happens GiE – I try not to clear it when everyones having a good time though. I think watching Afobe could be a plan.
I’ll get micky to rustle something up for tomorrow (as he’s obviously got an idea) but if you can do something for Friday that would be good please
Ok will do
GIE,
Really enjoying the Hudd/Bourn game. Young Afobe looks strong, skillful and full of beans.
Should be brought into the first team squad next season. 🙂
peaches, I have done some work on the post in drafts…
RA,
I’m not disrespecting anyone for their views. I wasn’t a personal or abusive attack, more like tit-for-tat. Just as he referred to me as a ‘glass half-empty merchant’, I countered that given how positively he taking our spine-less collapse he must be easily pleased. Lehmann played one game, and if the referee had seen the incident, would have conceded a penalty and possibly been red-carded too. Any other ambitious Premier Lge club queueing up to sign a 41-year old GK?
HCAA, YES Red Nose has been trying to convince Van Der Saar to sign all season. 😀
RA I agree on Afobe, still some rough edges to smooth, but like that he is staying central in the main. As you say he is very strong, tidy with ball at his feet, holds defenders off and brings others in when he can. Eager to run beyond defenders too.
One criticism would be he is on his heels a bit when the ball is in around the box from set plays, needs to get up on his toes a bit more and react quicker.
Cracking match though
This is some game of football. Afobe just had a glorious chance but lost footing, if i was Lee Clark i’d be giving him some proper studs to put on for the second half of ET.
GiE,
Ferguson has accepted that after 6 years of solid service, van der Sar is retiring at the age of 40, so that isn’t even a debate. What a difference he and Tevez would have made to our club!
Are you incapable of being amused by anything HCAA? I was trying to lighten the mood…ho hum.
But as you want to argue I’ll agree they would have made a difference but Van Der Saar signed for Man Utd in 2005, we still had Lehmann performing well so we would never have signed them.
And unlike West Ham or Liverpool I don’t think we would have done the deal with Tevez’s agents to get him. Or for that matter meet his wage demands.
The grass is always greener elsewhere for you HCAA, and I’m sure you feel our club has gone downhill or backwards but the way you express it by exercising the wonderful benefit of hindsight is annoying.
If you really want to talk about ambition, lets talk about the ambition and looking forward of using a squad of youth players that have been nurtured for years at the club and trying to win something doing it that way, it is both ambitious and looking forward. Before you ask I am not talking of the current squad, I am talking of Wilshere’s group and those coming through under his generation. To me the future is bright whether trophies come or not as I will enjoy watching those players develop.
Man Utd had Tevez for free, on a 2 year loan, and whist we all know West Ham did some dodgy deal, before they signed him, he was available to buy for £20-22m. Around the same amount we paid for that club-legend Jose Antonio Reyes! Jack Wilshere’s ‘group’? Who are they? Or are you referring to players who seem to be forever getting sent out on loan, like Bartley, Lansbury and JET? Jack Wilshere is the stand-out player, and already we’re becoming over-reliant on him. Is there any evidence that the rest of that ‘group’ are good enough to step up and play in the top echelons of the Premier Lge?
HCCA
You know why he signed Lehman. We could also write a list of every transfer that has gone well for other clubs and said we could have had them. All the other clubs fans are thinking the same.
According to newsnow we are after every defender that owns boots and can walk. The window isn’t open yet. This summer is going to be mental. One thing (among others)that really annoys me about our club is not getting our transfers done early.
HCAA
United certainly didn’t get Tevez for free, far from it – they paid Kia Joorabchian something like £20m for that two-year loan, £2m of which went to West Ham when they resisted releasing Tevez’s registration to United. (And I do have some inside information on this one, so it’s not just press nonsense.)
GM,
new signings are supposed to mirror the club’s ambitions. If Silvestre is no longer good enough, what makes him good enough for us? Re-signing Sol Campbell is not progressive. Ditto Squillaci. And Wenger shouldn’t have got us into a situation where we had to ask a former 41-year old GK to come out of retirement. Can you think of any other PL club who’ve had to use 4 GK’s this season? After conceding 41 goals last season Wenger admitted it was far too many if you want to be champions. We’ve conceded 41 with a game to play. That isn’t progress. Last season we scored 83 compared to 70 this season. That isn’t improvement, it’s regression.
Re Silvestre,
it should have read if he is no longer good enough for Man Utd, what makes him good enough for us?
26,
why would Man Utd pay £20m for a loan deal? They might as well have bought him outright, so that doesn’t make a lot of sense.
I don’t know who Exile had in mind when he referred to Wilshere’s group but here are my suggestions: Szczesny, Gibbs, Ramsey, Frimpong, Emmanuel-Thomas, Lansbury, Afobe, Miquel, Henderson, Coquelin, Miyaichi and Bartley. Looks pretty good to me, that.
About half of them are on loan right now but the likes of Wilshere, Szczesny, Ramsey and Gibbs have all benefited from being out on loan earlier on. So, looks like the loan system’s working pretty well, agreed?
HCAA
I agree, it was an appalling waste of money, even to secure the services of an excellent player. But that is precisely what United did. And it is precisely why Arsenal and a number of other clubs were right to steer clear of Tevez and Joorabchian.
He didn’t buy Ramsey to send him out on loan, he only went this season to ease him back after breaking his leg, so that doesn’t really count. Kieron Gibbs? Not sure about him, 26!
So you’re saying that had Man Utd taken up the option to buy Tevez it would have cost them in the region of £45m yet City paid £25?
D’oh! £25m.
HCAA
I agree with you about re-signing Campbell (though I have to admit, he did ok), and I know no-one who thought at the time that signing Silvestre was a good idea. Not because he was a cast-off, we’ve done well with other team’s cast-offs down the years (Thierry Henry anyone?), but because Silvestre was simply not good enough. Definitely an error of judgment from Wenger on that one, but one made in financially straitened times.
But I have to take issue with you on Lehmann, his re-signing doesn’t show a lack of ambition. Fabianski had been ruled out for the rest of the season and Szczesny was injured going into a crucial stage in the season, meaning we only had the Waiter. Unless you seriously think we should have relied on James Shea? And getting Lehmann in proved to be a very good move, given that Almunia got injured and being able to call on an experienced keeper was essential. A you say yourself, which other team has got down to their fourth choice keeper? Needing to get someone in (who had to be someone out of contract given that the transfer window had closed by the time the crisis had arisen) wasn’t something “Wenger got us into”, it was an episode of pure bad luck that Wenger managed well.
But I also agree that there is an argument that the team regressed last year, especially in the attacking part of the game. And that needs to be dealt with. Just don’t tell me that having three injured keepers provides any evidence of any such regression, it has nothing to do with it!
Kieran Gibbs: What aren’t you clear on? That he went on loan, or that he’s good enough? He did go on loan (to Norwich), and I accept that his performances this season have generally been disappointing. But he’s an England international and there is evidence he could become Clichy’s replacement (second half on Sunday for example).
Tevez: Correct. After wavering, United wanted to take up the option to make Tevez a permanent signing after the two-year loan period, which would have cost them another £25m wedge to Joorabchian. But City ended up paying it to Joorabchian instead, and United got nothing back for their £20m.
26,
Instead of pissing about trying to haggle for Schwarzer and allegedly having a £20m bid rejected for Reina, he should have just bought a quality GK such as Stekelenburg, who may or may not have got injured.
Oh and on Ramsey, sorry, I’m not having that, you can’t pick and choose which loans “count”!
Your criticism was that we have too many people out on never-ending loans. I’ve shown you that in fact the loans have produced the goods for us, whether in bringing on the development of young players and giving them a chance to play higher level football, or in Ramsey’s case, the chance to recover from his injury.
Not every player who goes out on loan succeeds, but that’s sport for you, and the objective isn’t for every one of them to succeed, it’s to develop a group in order that we get a few developed talents. Which is precisely what we’ve got.
26,
not sure Gibbs is good enough. Heskey and Crouch are living proof that you can be useless and play for England, as are Geoff Thomas, Keith Curle, Luther Blissett etc. We should have bought Tevez before he went to West Ham.
HCAA
I agree that going after Schwarzer was a bad idea, but Reina is a quality keeper, I’d have been delighted if we’d got him in. Steklenberg looks very good too, and I’d have been pleased to see him join but once Ajax qualified for the CL Group Stage, he committed to staying there, so he wasn’t available last summer. He might have been available in January (by which time Ajax had gone out of the CL), but by then Szczesny had proved himself, meaning the need to bring a keeper in had receded. Except that after the January transfer window closed, we were hit by an injury crisis, hence Lehmann.
See, no criticism to be made on keepers?! 🙂
Geoff Thomas, good call! And wasn’t Curle City’s most expensive signing?! Just shows they never learn.
Gibbs may come good, he has to prove himself though.
And if the club (and other clubs) ever looked at the Tevez and Mascherano deal that West Ham went for, they were absolutely right to pass on it; way, way too dodgy, it absolutely stank and deals like that are now officially against the laws of the game. And it should have seen West Ham relegated.
“if people only see the negative in you, whatever action you may take will only be perceived in a negative way”
Nicked that from Cedric Evinas twitter feed as I thought it was apt to today’s comments.
You can substitute negative for positive clearly.
26 got most of them there for me I think.
I hear Rangers are trying to keep Bartley for another season, and Bartley himself has said Arsenal are talking. Seems a shame as I’d like to think spells at Sheffield Utd and Rangers with good reviews on both would lead to him coming back.
HCAA on Silvestre do you think he was signed as first choice or cover? Last year we had Gallas and Vermaelen as first choice. I’m not saying it was a good signing but do you think Wenger would have signed him or Campbell in January if he had been given a pot of money to spend on transfers?
The Samba and Reina situations this season should tell us what we need to know about Wenger and the Board. In my view Wenger says he hasn’t tried to sign either at the time, yet in one instance the player himself says an approach has been made and in the other Bob Wilson has come out and said so, in my view you can reach a few conclusions from this:
A) Wenger wanted the players
B) Wenger didn’t want to upset his own players if the deal fell through
C) the Board wouldn’t sanction whatever fee/personalterms were being asked for
D) Wenger protects the board by saying he doesn’t need signings and is happy with what he has got
D also goes back to B.
And finally
E) Not many other managers would hang around to operate under such circumstances, SAF is the only other who is being forced too.
What was SAF last ambitious signing? Given most of his current side have also been gambles and he has bought some drinkers along the way too.
You’d have to admit that AW has brought more quality into the club than he has bought poor players.
I’m sure if you went back over the transfer history of players brought in te positives would outweigh the negatives. And not just in attacking positions but defence too.
Szczesny is more one for the future. Yes he has great potential, but he shouldn’t have been thrown in at the deep-end. And Thierry Henry wasn’t so much a cast-off as someone who Juventus wasted by sticking him out on the left-wing.
GiE,
SAF’s last ambitious signing? Hernandez for £6m. Don’t agree with you that Wenger has signed more quality than dross. At best it’s probably 50-50.
I disagree, Henry was definitely a cast-off. And last summer, Wenger probably thought about Szczesny the way you and some others do; but I definitely see a keeper who is ready now. Just as Casillas was at the same young age when he became first choice at Real. And Szczesny started the season as third choice keeper, so it was only circumstances that required him to be thrown into the deep end. And the boy has flourished since he was thrown in.
2010/11
Man U GS 74 GC 35
Chelsea GS 69 GC 32
Man City GS 58 GC 33
Arsenal GS 70 GC 41
Spurs GS 53 GC 45
2009/10
Man U GS 86 GC 28
Chelsea GS 103 GC 32
Man City GS 73 GC 45
Arsenal GS 83 GC 41
Spurs GS 67 GC 41
GS = Goals scored GC= Goals conceded
I always like a healthy dose of context when stats are looked at, in the simplistic measure of goals for and against everyone in the top 4 this season has regressed from last year, except City’s defence.
HCAA, how can you say Hernandez was an ambitious signing? Had you heard of him before this season? If you had, you’re a major football geek, and I’d be interested to know what else you know about Mexican football.
Hernandez was a speculative signing that worked out very well. Unlike Obertan and Bebe. I agree with Exile, Ferguson has steered clear of big signings (Rooney, Ferdinand, Berbatov etc) for a while now.
Not sure how to judge the dross vs quality ratio: some signings are inherently more speculative than others, with a lower possibility of success. And some change over time (eg, Flamini or Edu, crap for ages, then suddenly come good; or Arshavin, brilliant at the beginning and then falls away). Overall, I don’t see the transfers Wenger has made as being much of a source of criticism. The signings he hasn’t made, perhaps (though bear in mind the no net money thing for 2004 to 2010).
Okay HCAA i call Hernandez a gamble at the bottom end of the market, admittedly it’s better than a £30 m gamble at the top of the market for Dzeko or Carrol, or £50m for Torres. But what about Bebe and Obertan signed by SAF at the sane time as Hernandez? Gambles or ambition?
What’s the difference between our signing Koscielny and Squillacci one worked one didn’t.
26,
If you recall, for some odd reason Mascherano wasn’t an automatic first-choice for West Ham, and Liverpool bought him outright in the January window. We could have done the same with Tevez.
Exile: “everyone in the top 4 this season has regressed” – I think that is pretty accurate; ok, perhaps not City, even accepting their massive decline in goals scored, they have gone up a notch. But Chelsea, United and Arsenal have all gone backwards this season.
I don’t give a toss about the other two, but I find it galling that our lot have regressed.
HCAA
I’d forgotten that Mascherano wasn’t a regular pick at the Whammers. What nutcases they were, quality player.
But he didn’t sign permanently from Joorabchian’s company for Pool till some point in 2008, he was on loan there for at least a year, perhaps longer.
Re Tevez, who knows what was possible, but I think Joorabchian saw Tevez as his major source of cash and would exploit that to the full. If we’d had David Dein around, I’m sure he would have looked at trying to get Tevez in, but then Dein also oversaw some distinctly dodgy deals in our past (Silvinho, Edu and the Latvian striker whose name I forget all arrived on forged passports during the time Dein oversaw transfers).
I’d love us to sign Tevez now (though he’s off to Real, I’m sure), but am delighted the club didn’t go for him while he was tied to Joorabchian. That would have been pure poison.
I agree with you regarding the Tevez-Joorabchian link, 26. Maybe that’s why Mourinho didn’t buy him. He was supposed to have flown to watch Corinthians to tie up a £22m deal for Tevez.
Why didn’t the mancs buy Tevez? Outright before west ham or instead of or after the loan? The whole deal was so dodgy. They had an option to have him at the end of the loan but tried to knock them down and didn’t want to pay the wages. Tha mancs haven’t made any ambitious signings for a while. If you want to praise them (I don’t) you could say chickadick was inspired but not really ambitious.
I’m off to bed see you later.
Yup, that’s my lot too. Night all.
Night 26, GiE, GM, and anyone else tuned in.
Guys!
Stop trying to get rid of wenger.Someone did a post somedays ago forecasting the future without him and still you don’t understand the amount of risk involved in sacking him.
Ah, at last I have had a chance to read Dandan’s fine post.
I have also read every comment, I liked the “Hal” debate, I thought that one was there for the winning RA, to me the logic was on your side, compairing Kroeke and Uszmaov to Abramovich is not comparing apples with apples.
The funniest comment was “If close control mattered Adebayor wouldn’t be at Real Madrid”
Hahahahahah this is too easy
Shub
Don’t worry, Wenger isn’t going anywhere.
Just watched the city stoke highlights, if ever evidence was needed to show that winning a trophy lifts confidence, there it was. We better start hoping that Tevez actually gets his dream move to Madrid.
Morning London,
City will undoubtedly be a force next season with or without Tevez. We are currently 4th favourites to win the Prem title next season just ahead of pool and totnum, it is likely to be a 5 or 6 horse race again, we need to get off to a good start.
Am I the only blogger who thinks we do not have designs on any new players at this time?
Morning Rasp
I find it difficult to believe that we do not have designs on ANY new players but I expect anyone who is expecting big money signings is going to be very disappointed.
Morning all
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