I sat down in front of the game at 14.05 (kick off times are getting stranger and stranger), with a sense of optimism. I know that’s my default setting but I had good reason. We had got the monkey off our backs by beating ManYoo at home, right? A clean sheet against the league leaders last time and our superior record on the road this season led me to believe that we could get something. Stoke would also be preoccupied with their forthcoming date with destiny at Wembley, wouldn’t they?
A first half where we dominated possession, but failed to hit the target when we chanced a shot, and ended up going in at half-time 2 goals down ensued. There was, as always, some attractive link play with some individual flourishes, but in the end our performance was cosmetic, Stoke’s was surgical. There were positives: Arshavin trying to tackle back and RvP leading the line with spirit spring to mind but as the game wore on an image started to form… Stoke were playing like George Graham’s Arsenal side on their Cup Winner’s Cup run. They won every tackle, every aerial ball and shepherded our players back away from the danger zones. The team defended as a unit and wasted little time in turning defence into attack. And we had nothing to offer as a riposte, no tactics, no spirit. We couldn’t even muster a man on the near post for the set piece that led to their first goal!
Second half and Wenger brings on both Bendtner and Chamakh for Arshavin and Ramsey respectively. A bold move from the manager, who I have often urged to make earlier subs. But the combination of these two with RvP has yet to work in any game it has been tried and it smacked of desperation. And so it came to pass, or rather, we failed to pass well in the second half, conceding possession and trying to play Stoke at their own game. The futility of this approach got me seething as every dead ball situation was wasted, crosses didn’t reach their targets and Stoke cut out every threat with determination.
A lot has been said about Stoke’s approach to football, but what I saw was a far better team than the Allardyce-esque team of last season. They are confident, well-organised, neat and efficient. They can play ball to feet or in the air and allow very few risks to their own goal whilst causing our defence a real headache or two… from Pennant, Jones and Walters in particular, all of whom got on the scoresheet. I, personally, was filled with a hateful admiration of their strength and their belief in their game plan- I supported a team very like it 18 years ago!
Throwing yet more caution to the wind, the renowned game changer Tomas Rosicky came on for Alex Song in the 80th minute and shortly afterwards our best player on the day was finally played into enough space to score from just to the right of the penalty spot. “Thank the gods for Robin Van Persie”, I thought, hoping against hope that we could turn it on in the final 10 minutes. With that hope rekindled, I turned back to the screen to see Djourou floundering against Walters in our own box and instantly restoring the 2 goal advantage. Hope shattered, and so did my chair which will be kindling itself now I’ve kicked it to pieces!
I turned it off and walked out into the sunshine in disgust. If anything of note happened after that, please let me know in the comments. I had a fury towards this team that I cannot quite rationalize. Why should I be so upset when the actual result of the game was unlikely to mean anything? I put it down to 3 reasons:
Firstly, the team whose style of play I actually identified with was the opposition’s. I understood their formation, their strategy and desire. Their mentality was admirable and they played as a team with a common sense of purpose. Someone in the comments yesterday said that if we had Shawcross and Huth at CB we would have won the league. I am not sure that is the case. Neither of those players are better that JD and Kozzer in my view. The difference was the coaching they have received and the “no-one shall pass us” mentality that has been instilled.
Secondly, our team’s style of play- with heads dropping once the first goal went in- with the emphasis on individual skill and “trying to play football” yet getting turned over by a proper team of (less skillful) professionals reminded me of a team I have always hated. Yep, you’ve guessed it, they who shall not be named from down the road. We cannot continue in this vein. We are The Arsenal. We are in the business of winning games. The result is more important than the manner in which it is achieved. Were it the other way round, we’d go weak at the knees for players wearing lillywhite! (If we can win with style, so much the better and I will always be grateful to our current manager for having managed to do so for so long, but…)
Finally, it was evident from the way the players communicated with the referee and the way their heads dropped that we have a “victim culture” developing in the dressing room. This has got to stop. The worst tackles yesterday were perpetrated by OUR players, yet from the almost whinging way some of our players pleaded with the referee I discern that they felt it was the other way round. It was not a dirty game yesterday, but you could see that some of our players were saying to themselves. “not fair” like sulky teenagers.
I am angry, and I am sure it will pass. It always does. I love the club but the tactics in particular, and the heart and determination in general HAVE to improve. This is The Arsenal and THAT wasn’t good enough!
Written by CarlitoII
Arsenal News 24/7
arsenalarsenal.net 
First my reply to Rasp at the last knockings of precious post:
“I agree to an extent Rasp, TotalArsenal has added to debate.
HCAA however only appears on the blog in down times from experience which unsurprisingly winds me up a bit. But I’ll still enter conversation with him as he is not offensive or abusive (just misguided 😉 )”
Now to read the dissection 😀
Thanks GiE, and this was my response to your point from yesterday’s post….
…..It’s easy to get wound up when we’ve just watched a performance that dire
As I have said many times, we will look weak and defensive if we seek to drive away articulate supporters who just happen to have a view that conflicts with the majority.
I would say the same to our regulars as I do to newcomers – by stating one side of a debate you create the opportunity for others to argue the contrary. and that can only be a good thing.
Thanks Carlito,
Not only did you step up to write a report, but you’ve produced a superb analysis of everything that was wrong yesterday (whilst mentioning the few good points).
We’ve all said that something needs to be done. Whether personnel changes over the summer are led by the club or forced by players leaving is academic. It is not only an injection of new blood on the pitch that is required but a change of emphasis in the whole way we play.
Theo came in for a lot of stick yesterday. He is excellent in a couple of areas and average in others – so why not play to his strengths? You don’t use a chisel for screwing in screws!!!
Our ability to slow games down and ensure we face a packed defence is brilliant to the point that we prescribe every opposition’s tactics for them the week before the game.
Morning all and a bravo to Carlito for volunteering to write up yesterday’s abomination of a performance by our so-called players.
I’ve gone past the raging/anger response to insipid Arsenal performances and only laugh quietly and slightly hysterically at the scoreline.
How damming it is that a team who I hate only slightly less than the manks and the Brum Scum have my grudging admiration for how they went about their task yesterday?
That is wrong on so many levels, but that is what my team have done to me.
Carlito a cry from the heart I know, but how sad to see words and phrases such as Hate, Anger, Winning is more important than the manner of the victory, from a writer and thinker as gifted as yourself. After all this is a game we are talking about not as many would have you believe a war.
Yes we performed badly yesterday, yes our 19 year old over hyped young prospect. lost his head and was lucky to stay on the park. He like you IMHO was overcome with frustration by a season that promised much and delivered only some delectable football at times and the promise of Champions league again next year.
Not good enough you say, we are the Arsenal you say, and having said it, unbelievably in my opinion, yearn not for the classic beauty of the Wengerball glory years that delighted all but the most disingenuous of opposition fans. But the stark cynical spectacle of those human JCB’s, automated and programmed by the phlegmatic George Graham, footballs, equivalent of that other cynical Scotsman Gordon Brown who likewise believed that the end justifies the means. Our club without Arsene would now be where our country is today.
So we lost a match, we have not played well for a number of weeks and a number of players have appeared less than interested, although to be fair not many have beaten us. Yes our defense is suspect, but had Arsene known how bad TV’s injury really was no doubt he would have strengthened the backline in January. We didn’t and have paid the price, no doubt a lesson learned by the club.
It seems that a great many changes are on the way, new ownership with whatever that may bring. Pat Rice after many years yeoman service is apparently on his way, a new man will sit in his seat and will probably also bring a different prospective to the club. Our large playing staff will be weeded out and coming and goings are to my mind certain. Whether they satisfy the “lets do a Leeds brigade” and play the burgeoning number of big spenders at there own game I doubt. But targeted replacements in the oft discussed critical area will in my opinion arrive.
So things have gone a bit pear shaped, expectancy and ambition have fallen foul of reality and we as fans are at odds with each other, the club and our distinguished manager that has served us so well. That as they say is football and underlines the you only sing when you are winning mentality of many who watch the sport. No doubt battles will commence on myriad blogs today and throughout the coming close season, but lets hope that we on AA can keep the arguments, friendly and constructive and without the crazed vitriolic garbage that will undoubtedly rage across much of the blogosphere.
Excellent Carlito. 🙂
45 seconds of hope they gave us yesterday before snatching it away with yet another defensive blunder. Liverpool at home repeated.
This morning sober and rational (well, as rational as I get) I still believe the correct word for that display was ‘gutless’. I know it’s an emotive word, but that’s how I saw it from the terraces yesterday and still see it a day later. It’s a shame the players can’t be paid by some sort of performance-related, win bonus system.
Still very angry.
I commend you Carlito for not only having the motivation to write a post but putting it in such a way that is in line with no doubt how so many of us feel/would have felt.
My mind is already on next season as for me our season finally died at the home game against Liverpool.
What is begining to really piss me off is the continual feeling of groundhog day.
So we concede a goal from losing our marker at a corner AGAIN !
So we concede a goal from a long range shot not being closed down AGAIN !
So we concede shortly after scoring AGAIN!
For me we what we are lacking is enough players with a fighting spirit. Yesterday I only saw Jack, Robin and Song with it
We were obviously not good enough against Stoke.
I don’t understand how a team can be good enough to beat Barcelona( if it were not for that referee) but still make Stoke City look good. Their players were obviously much more motivated and probably ours thought that it’d be a stroll in the park considering the FA Cup distraction. How wrong were they. Never seen such a disappointing performance from you boys. And this is coming from an optimistic fan. Something has got be wrong.
Yesterday really did sum up 2010/2011 for me.
– Possession football with no real direction or drive.
– Defensive frailty.
– Still no plan B
Yes I can see the potential, with 6 games to go we could potentially win the league but we’ve contrived to throw it away.
I’m just so disappointed. I haven’t even published my blog post from yesterday as I need to edit out some of the bad feeling and frustration.
On a day when Chelski just couldn’t handle ManYoo this was a chance for us to creep up closer to 2nd place and we didn’t make it stick.
Just super disappointed.
WG
Carlito I’d say that was very restrained I’m sure many of us would go further.
Wenger has said “something has gone” in my opinion he has absolved the players of responsibility for too long. I understand why he has done it. But it is time for them to grow up.
It is often said that good players don’t need to be told they are not doing their jobs they should know. To get into the first team at Arsenal you should be a winner already and you should have to fight to stay there.
Why did the Stoke players look better? Because they are not lavished with praise so they are out to prove a point every week. Why have our players not proved their detractors wrong? Because Wenger has convinced them it’s not their fault.
Morning Carlito, 🙂
Fabulous stab at reporting on a game we all had high expectations of, which following that dire performance and result was dreadfully anticlimactic. Well done 🙂
Rasp, for what it is worth, I will never be buttoned holed into being or belonging to a ‘group’ or ‘set’ or ‘camp’ or ‘follower’.
I am an individual with my own, hopefully balanced, opinions which I am happy to debate with an open mind.
There is nothing ‘one sided’ about my opinions, other than my intolerance of anyone continually slagging off my club, that is not open to debate!
I think they went on to the pitch thinking they’d already lost everything. They never really looked up for it.
Morning RA,
I wasn’t singling out individuals. There are times when I choose not to place a comment because I know that my input will not be constructive, so I just wait for things to calm down or for the debate to go in a different direction.
Sometimes it is better to keep schtum and other times we need to defend what we hold dear – it is an individual judgement, we are all different.
There are issues to be adressed in the summer. I think a lot of it is training more than personel.
When the oppo get a corner we always look like conceding
when we get one we never look like scoring
We need to learn how to concentrate after we score
We need a plan b
We need to shoot more
Our full backs need to practice crossing
We ned to be more direct (not in an allerdice way) Like we did for the 2nd goals against barca and wolves.
Great post BTW. I don’t know how you can motivate yourself after that display.
Arsenal must get a director of football with the emphasis on tactics. I am afarid the gunners passing style is the no 1 reason for the decline. I think the gunners are the only team in the world trying to pass 1000 one thousand times befoer shooting and scoring.That is why they find it difficult because the defenders have time to regroup.
The aim is to score asap and not indulge in excessive overplay. Who said it?Ronald Koeman. a
In short, it was just terrible 2 watch!!! Do they really expect people 2 pay a further 6’5% for that CRAP!!! I don’t think so. Credit goes to Jack & VP, by far the best players on the pitch, the only bunch who show the passion needed to play a football match. Someone really needs to install that attitude back into the team, these babies need to know that they have to earn to wear that jersey, I’m tired of looking at the same academy-like football week in and week out. WE NEED REAL FOOTBALLERS OUT THERE! Wenger, youi are full of crap & I’m sorry to say this but I’m glad that w r loosing to a bunch of amateur rugby players so that you end up realizing that your pathetic philosophy is full of CRAP!
Guns out!
Leaving false modesty aside, I can tell AW exactly what is wrong with this Arsenal team, and he would do well to pay heed.
We all have our varying opinions about this player or that, the need to buy this player or that and so on ad infinitum.
I offer this explanation for out troubles, but I leave the solution to others more gifted than me.
The slow, patient buildup, with sideways and backwards five metre passes from wing to wing and back, allows every team (especially the more limited ones) to mass in defence in the sure expectation that we will lose the ball.
The resultant counter attacking punt downfield leads to a goal or a desperate defensive lunge giving away a free kick, from which the oppo scores from a set piece headed goal.
The proof of this theory, if any is needed, is that when good, confident teams (Manure, Spuds, Chavs) attack us, they leave space for our own counter attacks that often make us look the class football team that others talk about.
This explains the continual dismal performances against ‘lower’ clubs who have rumbled us, as opposed to the exhilerating games against the ‘better’ teams.
The solution? I don’t know. That is where the strategists and tacticians out there need to apply themselves. Please?
Hiya Carlito the Brave, I bet there weren’t many volunteers to write today’s post. Well done, very good article!
BUT, do you really mean: ‘The result is more important than the manner in which it is achieved’ ?
Dry your eyes glory-seeker…there’s always next season!
Up the Potters!
Hi Tom Jones – which “glory-seeker” are you referring to?
Is he/she here ?
Hi TotalArsenal, 🙂
That was a brilliant comment yesterday from Will Shakeyspear, ‘As you like it’
‘Sweet are the uses of adversity,
Which, like the toad, ugly and venomous,
Wears yet a precious jewel in his head;
And this our life, exempt from public haunt,
Finds tongues in trees, books in the running brooks,
Sermons in stones, and good in every thing.
The metaphorical reference to the bitter sweet loss of position. Absolute classic! 🙂
I presume your allegorical reference is to Arsene Wenger as the deposed Duke?
Tomjones – don’t be an idiot…glory seeker…..really? We’d be supporting someone else.
Well done on your victory yesterday the btter team won, which Carlito says. Best of luck on Cup Final day.
GIE – proverbial hat off to you 🙂
Tom Jones – we really don’t care if you win the FA cup, we just want ManU to lose
Hi Red Arse,
There are several ‘technical solutions’ all of which need to applied randomly so that we do not appear to be so predictable
Attacking
1. Get into goal threatening positions quicker – whether it be via quick,1 touch forward passes or long lofted passes
2.vary types of crosses according to opponents. I commented after the Man U game that we kept lofting crosses in for Vidic and Ferdinand to gobble up. As soon as we started to provided low crosses or cut backs we started to cause problems
3. Have the humility to observe how Chelsea and Man U deal with teams like Stoke and copy it!!
Defensively
I think our biggest problem is our attitude to defending. We have conceded 39 goals so far with 2 games to go, 42 last season and 37 the season before …I believe this is team issue not just the back 4
GM whilst I agree with most of your points, the one I can’t is the need to shoot more….
PL Shots:
Chelsea 523
Arsenal 461
Man Utd 429
Tottenham 416
West Brom 411
Unfortunately we have the ball for so loing it seems like we never shoot, whereas Man U and others get there so much quicker (less passes) so appear to shoot more in relation to time on the ball.
We are the most accurate getting 49% on target compared to Chelsea’s 44%, which means we only had 6 less shots on target than Chelsea, and scored 2 more as a result, so overall we shoot enough and score enough it would seem. Man U on the other hand scored 3 more than us from 199 on target shots, compared to our 68 from 224 on target, perhaps its an issue of thrust again?
I know stats aren’t everyones cup of tea but my point is its not lack of shooting, its the perception that we rarely shoot that comes from having so much possession relative to others.
What is clear is teams will not commit men out of their organised groups of four because it plays into our hands.
But by continuing to send full backs on and leave ourselves so open to the counter attack we make it very easy for opponents to damage us.
If we did not commit our full backs it would do a few things:
A) give the opponents less opportunity to counter
B) force our attacking/creative players to take more responsibility instead of making the easy pass to the spare full back, maybe forcing them to be more direct.
C) force the opposition to commit more men forward as presently we give them too much encouragement to break 2 on 2
How could this have happened ? “This is my best team ever.” the manager told us. Arsene knows, right ?
Thanks for the match summary, I agree with everything you say. I’m not a regular reader or contributor to blogs but something about our current team has led me to look up how other Arsenal supporters are feeling. In over 40 years supporting our beloved team I have never felt so much frustration. My overiding emmotion is one of anger and no matter how hard I try I don’t seem to be able to get things in perspective. If my old Dad was still alive he would be telling me that it’s not that bad, were in the CL again etc etc but I’m not consoled by that anymore. If things carry on like this next season I can see ‘support groups’ setting up across North London to help the growing number of Gooners with mental breakdowns.
Spectrum – did he say that?
From This is London 28 Jan 2011:
Wenger said: “The squad will be stretched but I have 25 players of the same quality – I have never had a squad of this equal strength in my life. I want to take advantage of it and go for every single competition.”
Find me a quote where he says its the best team he has ever had. I’ve just googled it and I only get the rehash on blogs as they have chosen to interpret it.
😀 Arsenalchamps
Perhaps there needs to be a support group for the players too.
Right I’m commenting to much on this blog right now so i’m offski’s to do some work rather than hog the clients internet connection for blogging 😀
Thanks Wonderman, GIE,
It seems we are in general agreement, but it is the ‘how’ that is missing.
At heart, it is the too slow build up that causes the original problem, it seems.
Even with the full backs raiding forward, because of the lack of pace in going forward, the oppo defence is already back in numbers waiting, and we are hopeless at crossing, with our only tall CF playing on the wing.
I think GIE’s point about restricting our full backs going forward would make the defence have a more stable platform, but then we are back to the ‘how’ question.
How do we compensate for the lack of their attacking options? The solution might be that we need ‘genuine’ pacey wingers who can cross. Would AW agree? I doubt it. (Incidentently, Theo is neither a ‘genuine’ winger and neither can he cross).
My own solution, which is probably cobblers, is to retain passing possession in our own half, rather than the oppo’s and lure them out.
This would create space at the back so that we could counter attack at pace with a Thierry Henry type CF.
(Wishful thinking?) 🙂
Kind of agree RedArse.
By limiting attacking raids by our full backs means if the opposition have any desire to win they will have to push more men (from midfield probably) forward which then creates space for us to play.
Although this could easily become a stalemate with the opposition happy to take a point.
lol gotto say Djourou has performed an outstanding optical illusion which has duped 90% of Arsenal fans.
Before he came back we were still shipping goals and as soon as he comes back and has like one or two decent games largely because the defence was untroubled – he’s suddenly our saviour and hero.
He is a truly awful defender and will always be exposed. Always lets his man run across him, Jones yesterday. Comical for the 3rd, and against bolton he was at it too.
I always knew how bad he was since he was on loan at birmingham.
Welcome ArsenalChamps89,
One function of blogs these past few years has been to offer an escape valve for the frustrations felt by mnay supporters.
AA came about partly because of our dislike of the extreme overreaction in some quarters but we still feel the pain of performances like yesterday’s very deeply.
Carlito,
Really good job. “Our performance was cosmetic, Stoke’s was surgical” is an excellent line. I also totally agree that we are developing a fairly chronic “victim mentality”.
I will not be around much as I have a little rendez-vous with my accountant on wednesday, and raher harshly I feel, he expects my accounts to be in order.
Pushy lot these accountants 🙂
Rocky7,
I think you are being too harsh on Djourou.
I agree he is sometimes too ‘soft’, unlike Vidic or Terry, and needs to bring out the beast, but he is our best in the air.
Incidently, the apportioning of blame for Jones’s goal always seems to miss RVP.
He was the ‘tall’ one marking the near post and allowed the ball to skim over his head. Nothing anyone could do then.
Still, RVP is not a defender, I suppose, and was there because everyone in our defense, other than Djourou, is a midget.
Mr Carlito your thoughts are echoed by all Arsenal fans,….I would hope!
6yrs without a trophy and sackfuls of excuses from the manager about youth development, lack of experience and potential. Mr AV could have been talking about a Children’s Centre but no its ARSENAL a proud British football club with a glorious history, once with the word Royal introducing its name, and originating from the Woolwich Arsenal.
Ok! football isn’t war but strategy is paramount to winning and succeding in anything. AV has lost his way! The Marble Halls of Arsenal should stand for something?!
We are fans who are passionate, without the freedom of divorce! Love and hate is part of the mix of endurance. In the city of London they say “we are paid lots of money but we have to work for it. Apparently, they work all hours to achieve material status”! Yesterdays, performance would be anathema to Ian Wright, Tony Adams, Martin Keown, Patrick Viera, Dennis Bergkamp and the like but AV changed a winning formula to dig out youth over experience, porcelain china dolls instead of gladiators, little mice instead of lions!!!
Arsenal fans are sick of mediocrity and like people have said: it was gutless, an abomination, and the players were absolved of responsibility!
JD did a great impression of a Doorman at the Ritz Hotel gracefully standing aside for the first goal at Stoke. Why didn’t he pass him a cup of tea and a bloody scone too?!! He should be court marshalled for being a traitor! THAT’S HOW ANGRY I AM!
If Alex Fergerson had been managing Arsenal I am sure we would have had different results! AW weekness is he is too stubborn and nice at times, although I concede he has done a lot for Arsenal and would not want him to leave. BUT I AM GETTING IMPATIENT!!
Defensive frailty must be fixed, plan B & C must be implemented as a contingency plan, and the team must be more clinical. On the bright side RvP has been magnificent since his return from injury and has now scored in 8 consecutive away games! Bravo!
It is madening watching Arsenal but that’s because of expectations.. great skill..brilliant execution at times.. think Chelsea, Barca at home only for hopes to be dashed on the stones of lacking grit and determination. However, you make reference to 18 years ago when we won two of the most dire finals (three games including one replay) ever played at the old Wembley. I was emabarrased being an Arsenal fan after those matches v Shef Wed and never want to witness an Arsenal side play like that again. Wenger has done brilliantly and things need to change and we need an injection of steel but PLEASE not Morrow, Jenson, Hillier etc.and the style associated with them.
Nice write up for a dreadful performance Carlito, well done to you.
Like you, I despair of the attitude of some of these players. It’s just not good enough. We can cope with losing, with not winning trophies, but which football fan would tolerate their players not trying? The fact we have expensive tickets only underlines the point. Yes, our failure is still superior to almost everyone else’s success, but to see our players give up chances of winning the title, or even just the chance of winning one match, just isn’t good enough.
I understand dandan’s call for perspective, but if this group of players just won’t try to play to their potential, a significant portion of them has to go.
I don’t think any of us is competent to say what changes to coaching need to be made (and certainly not whether a “Director of Coaching” would help). But we can judge from the results (two wins in nine games in the run-in) and the gormlessness of some of the performances at critical times that serious change needs to be made. I believe in Wenger’s ability to do that, but I no longer believe in this group of players.
I think a full return to 4-4-2 would reap rewards. We struggle to get in behind teams like Stoke because they sit deep and RvP has to fight a 4 man defence by himself.
The problem with 4-4-2 is that we would lose the effectiveness of Fabregas. Make no bones about it, the 4-2-3-1 formation is purely for him. To give him time and space in between midfield and defence to try and unlock something.
Fabregas isn’t enough of a worker to be part of a central midfield pairing, you would need Jack and Rambo for that or Jack and Song with Nasri and Arshavin on the wings with instructions to battle in midfield and break with pace forwards.
Song also has an identity problem and he’s not being helped by Arsene, Song needs to be told to defend. Thats it. Defend like your life depends on it and then give the ball to someone else to go forwards and hold your defensive position.
Our game at the moment is based on getting the midfield up to support RvP. So, like yesterday when attacking we’d have up to 8-9 players in the Stoke half. When it breaks and they counter we are bare at the back.
We need to be more solid than that. We risk conceding every time we go forwards by being so gung-ho.
I think a change in formation and mentality is required. Beautiful football can be played in 4-4-2 and we won trophies doing it.
WG
Djourou is neither that bad nor that good: those who slag him off for yesterday and for Bolton etc forget how superb he has been at times, including against Chelsea, when he absolutely dominated Drogba. But his positional play has always been wayward and I’ve seen nothing to suggest he’ll overcome that tendency consistently.
We could have won the title with the defenders we’ve got but truth be told, only Vermaelan and Sagna are up to scratch. Koscielny might be if his progression continues. Sorry to say it, because I like them, but Clichy, Djourou and Gibbs cost us too much.
WG @ 12:05
Spot on. Some say we need a plan ‘B’ or ‘C’. I agree with you, we need to rethink plan A.
It would not surprise me if we did not see fabregas in an Arsenal shirt again and so the idea of a team being built around his admittedly outstanding ability will be superfluous.
I think I agree with WG that our 4-2-3-1 formation is part of the problem. I really wanted it to succeed, because I believed in the idea of us becoming the new Barca, of sides being carved open, not by single thrusts but by multiple passes. Death by a thousand cuts etc.
But the truth is we’re just not good enough for that. It’s clear not so much from defeats like yesterday’s, more from the painful defeat at the Nou Camp. They have not just the technical brilliance and team dynamic required to make that system work, they also have incredible pace and fitness to be able to press the ball anywhere on the pitch. Looking at our players, I don’t see enough evidence of that.
Perhaps it is better to dial back to the simple structure of the Invincibles. We’ve still got some fantastically talented players but changing our default structure would mean having to recruit a true left-winger and sell at least one, perhaps two, of Fabregas, Nasri and Arshavin.
Hi 26, WG, 🙂
They always said of brilliant international and club teams in past years, Brazil, Italy, Argentina; Milan, Real, Barca etc that they were technically brilliant but sometimes played as if it were a chess match, when necessary.
A generalisation, of course, but founded on fact.
Many in the UK dismissed this interpretation of the beautiful game, preferring the rambunctious, athletic, gung ho style of ‘Britsh’ football.
The result? They kept on winning trophies at international and club level while we won bugger all.
This ‘chess’ style is, perhaps, what we need now at Arsenal, to unlock the packed defences of Bolton, Stoke, Blackburn et al.
Unfortunately, for all their technical prowess, not many of our players have the ‘nous’ to understand a chess like approach, sadly! 😦
RA
It’s not often I disagree with you (except on those tendentious issues of which accounting rules to use, ooh that gets my blood boiling that does…..). But I beg to differ on the chess match analogy.
One thing we’ve seen become a real problem is the slowing down of the game. This is a relatively recent development in our style of play, given that 1997 to 2005 saw Wenger’s teams use a lot of pace and directness – just think of Thierry’s angry, end-to-end goal against Spurs back in the day, or how often we used the defence of a corner or free-kick as a launchpad for a lightning attack. Can you see that happening now?
And equally, can you see us consistently, across a 60 match season, teasing open defence after defence and clinically finishing any chances we get? Perhaps if we had someone of Henry’s genius, or in a different style, Drogba at his best. But anything short of that, and we aren’t going to be able to dominate sufficiently.
I do agree, for a whole host of reasons, that the worst thing to do would be to go back to Little Britainism. That’s for team that want to survive, not succeed.
Those is my thoughts anyways.
Afternoon all- glad to have stimulated some debate. Olderarse- I take your point about our “cup double” at Wembley and the style, or lack of, in which it was won. However, the complete absence of defensive nous at the moment is killing our hopes and raising my blood pressure to unsustainable levels. I wish I could see the other team attack us and feel a calm sense that the attack would be repelled. That was how I felt about that Arsenal team, and it is no doubt how SCFC fans feel about their well-drilled team…
On the winning over style comment. Of course both would be good as I mentioned in my piece. But those spuds would always sack managers who could win but in no style, and always had flair individuals but no winning team ethos (at least in my lifetime). To my mind it is vital that we do not go down the same route!
Back off to work 😥 – catch up later…
GoonerIn Exile@11;38 – Seems pretty clear to me. (quote) ; “I have never had a squad of this equal strength in my life.” Note the phrases “I have NEVER” and “in MY LIFE “.
Most of the blogs seem to interpret his words as having “his best squad ever”. Perhaps you’ve been in exile a little too long, Gooner ?
Older Arse. I am with you 100%, thanks for stopping bye
Hi 26,
Actually, I was pursuing thoughts I had aired earlier with Wonderman and GIE, that you may not have read.
Slow, ‘methodical’ rather inept, wing to wing and back passing is anathema to me. This what we produce when playing ‘lower’ teams, rather than the fast paced exciting play we exhibit against the ‘best’ teams.
My suggestion to overcome our stultifying approach to mass defence is to retain possession in our half, to lure out the oppo. Then to attack at pace into the space created behind them when they do come out.
This requires a more cerebral (chesslike) approach to achieving success, masterminded by a ‘generalissimo’ (Cesc?) rather than the idiotic snail paced nibbling at the oppo defence, only to lose the ball, in the way we currently play.
Ball skills? Fine, but allied to intelligence!
Apologies for throwing the dummy out of the pram yesterday.
Like all of us, had a shitty day after THAT performance by our boys, been made to listen to Rambo being booed by the Neanderthals of Stoke (I was at the game last season, and will never forget what Stoke/Shawcross did), and then seeing Man United – who this year have simply been the ideal cure to insomnia – play just about the only decent game in the PL all season to clinch the title. It should have been Arsenal’s this year, but we frankly did not deserve it, ONCE AGAIN. Yesterday, was a culmination of all of this season’s frustrations, and this got reflected int yesterday’s blog by most of us.
Thanks also for your encouragements to stay tuned in.
I am not sure whether it is worthwhile analysing yesterday’s game much more: the bigger picture of the season has not been altered a lot from this game. There are many views on how to change things, and I am sure we will dicuss these to death over the next few months.
Spectrum, to be fair to Exile, you originally claimed Wenger had said this was the best TEAM he’d had, which as Exile pointed out was incorrect: Wenger was talking about the SQUAD (hence reference to needing 25 players etc).
And if you compare our current squad with that of our highest level in living memory (2003-04), Wenger has a point: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003–04_Arsenal_F.C._season. Of course, the first TEAM from the Invincibles period is indisputably superior to the current team.
Not that I’m especially impressed with anyone wearing an Arsenal shirt right now. Other than the women’s team, they bloody know how to win a game….
For those days at work when things were not going well and I could feel the storm crowds gathering. I kept this on my office wall, it has sustained and calmed me on many occasions when I have felt like murdering a member of staff who had let me down. Perhaps it will help one or two angry Gooners.
Desiderata by Max Ehrmann
Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
and remember what peace there may be in silence.
As far as possible without surrender
be on good terms with all persons.
Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
and listen to others,
even the dull and the ignorant;
they too have their story.
Avoid loud and aggressive persons,
they are vexations to the spirit.
If you compare yourself with others,
you may become vain or bitter;
for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.
Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans.
Keep interested in your own career, however humble;
it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time.
Exercise caution in your business affairs;
for the world is full of trickery.
But let this not blind you to what virtue there is;
many persons strive for high ideals;
and everywhere life is full of heroism.
Be yourself.
Especially, do not feign affection.
Neither be cynical about love;
for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment
it is as perennial as the grass.
Take kindly the counsel of the years,
gracefully surrendering the things of youth.
Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune.
But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings.
Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness.
Beyond a wholesome discipline,
be gentle with yourself.
You are a child of the universe,
no less than the trees and the stars;
you have a right to be here.
And whether or not it is clear to you,
no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.
Therefore be at peace with God,
whatever you conceive Him to be,
and whatever your labors and aspirations,
in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams,
it is still a beautiful world.
Be cheerful.
Strive to be happy.
The main differences between AWs winning teams and this current one is pace, discipline and responsibility.
We don’t use the pace we have to its full potential.
Players are not disciplined enough to do their defensive duties.
Not enough players take responsibility for results or on the pitch to get us a win. choosing the easy option passing to teammates rather than beating the man in front or finding the difficult ball)
As well as RvP played yesterday if he takes his first chance when put through by Ramsey we are 1-0 up after twenty minutes and the game changes. The biggest problem is we seem incapable of finding early goals at the moment which plays into opponents hands. Ok I know even when we’ve managed that it hasn’t always ended well but I’m sure we’ve probably won more than list when achieving an early goal.
Hi Dandan, 🙂
Your response in agreement with OlderArse’s comment;
— It is madening watching Arsenal but that’s because of expectations.. great skill..brilliant execution at times.. think Chelsea, Barca at home only for hopes to be dashed on the stones of lacking grit and determination.–
Et tu Brute? 🙂
Welcome back TotalArsenal,
If you would like to formulate some of your views into a headline post, we would be delighted to publish them on the site.
Hi dandan,
I thought you’d recognise a kindred spirit in Older Arse 😛
So Spectrum, what do you want, are you going to put forward your views as to what you would like to see happen or are you just going to whine?
Hi TotalA, 🙂
No need to apologise, tho’ it shows class, we were all a bit frazzed after the game.
Anyway, your Shakespeare quote gets you a big welcome from me! 🙂
Whine and Roses, London? 🙂
I’m rather surprised that no-ne has picked up on my ‘it wouldn’t surprise me if we don’t see Fabregas in an Arsenal shirt again’ comment?
Spectrum, you choose to interpret the words “never” and “in my life” as some justification that he said its “the best team he has ever had”. You have to add the middle of what he said to understand the whole sentence.
” a squad of equal strength ”
What is he saying? Well in my opinion he is saying that the players are all of similar ability and as such interchangeable, not that they’re his best players ever.
I have no problem with you expressing dissatisfaction as to the quality of the squad but I do have a problem with putting something in quote marks that hasn’t actually been said.
He probably does not hold those views anymore, if he did we would have seen far more rotation in the starting eleven.
RA, I absolutely agree with your sign off, “Ball skills …. allied to intelligence”. But I’m not convinced playing a possession game is going to be in our interests – lesser teams (at least the ones we struggle with) tend to be well organised and work off the principle of minimising risk. If we don’t take the game to them one way or another, they’ll be quite happy to have the game happening in front of them, even if it means they don’t have many chances to score.
However we do it, we need to put pressure on our opponents, both to force them into errors and to eke out our scoring chances. I’m sure we still need to play quite a bit of the tippy-tappy game, in order to move defences around, but we need to rediscover some directness too. The failure in the run-in has more than anything been defined by not having enough chances against Blackburn, Sunderland, WBA, Bolton and now Stoke. More of an attacking game and psychology in those games and things might be so different right now.
Dandan,
You have made me a happy man.
I love The Desiderata, by Max Erhman, but sadly have not read it for many years. Each stanza is a wonderful quotation in its own right.
Well written that man! 🙂
Hi Rasp. It will be interesting when the storm passes and equanimity returns, to see how the evaluations mature and change.
Arsenal is part of a Gooners life, not the meaning of life and we will all still have to get on with it. At that point when reality sets in and we have some knowledge as to how the market is moving during the close season. Then perhaps we will be able to evaluate where we are.
At present it is all to new, close and raw, emotions and disappointment like pernicious demons cloud our judgements and need to be exorcised, your blog is ideal for this.
@Rasp 1.02pm: Is it such a contentious thing to say? Not only are there still plenty of Arsenal fans who think Cesc is likely to leave (as they’ve been saying for years), there are now some that think it would be a good thing.
26,
We are sort of arguing the same thing.
Pace, skill, intelligence are all necessary.
To see our guys climbing like ants up a sandy incline only to slide back down when near the apex, only to resume the same clueless, pointless climb is very sad ……. and stupid.
Like boxers, they need to feint left and right and then strike like lightning for the jugular when they have created an opening.
Where’s the disagreement. Anyway I have said all I can on this subject! 🙂
Hi RA
Glad you liked the WS contribution. A few years ago, I visited the Ancient Bristlecone Pine Forest in California – the oldest living ‘things’ on earth – and saw this quote by him. In order to stay alive and progress, adversity has an important function. It was because of the adverse weather conditions that the Californian Bristlecone Pines were able to ‘weapon themselves’ and became so strong to survive for so long.
I think Arsene is a genius – his vision on how to play the game is second to none in the UK, maybe even the world. When Arsenal play really well, I am the happiest man around. He has been struggling with executing the final part of his vision though – the bit that lands us trophies.
He seems stuck, and it appears he is very stubborn (inherent to being a genius?) to accept any of the advice given to him. He is not yet, as you suggested, the deposed / to be deposed Duke, but the current adversity we are experiencing might just be strong enough for him to accept that he needs to make a few significant changes, consult with others, show some humility, let in some doubt, and find some answers ‘outside’ his normal thinking and environment. If so, the current adversity might have had ‘some sweet uses’ as Shakespeare calls it, afterall.
Oh ok then, we agree then RA. Just when I needed a bit of a row!
Anyways, have to zoom off now. All the best to one and all.
Hi 26m, I’m not one who wants to see him go, but I would like us to drop the idea that the team should be built around him, he may have to adapt his style to accomodate a different system.
Thanks dandan, I can’t see any set of results in the remaining matches that will dampen the ‘storm’. I fear we have a summer ahead full of turmoil, angst and speculation.
Wenger’s power at Arsenal reminds me of Abramovic’s at Chelsea, and I’m not comfortable with that.
Well done Carlito. A passionate report and I have to say I agree with most of it.
Funnily, I had a moment during yesterday’s game when I thought “Oh my God! We’re turning into the Spuds – gifted players, some flair, no character and always flatter to deceive.”
I am consoled by the fact that I really think AW now knows his project can not succeed as is. Even at the end of last season (after that now-familiar collapse) I think he believed that all this group of players needed to win the league was a bit more experience and some luck with injuries. Well, they’re all one year older and we entered the final quarter of the season with almost everyone fit. We still failed. So now I glean from what he is saying that the boss knows he has to to do something radical. I hope so, anyway.
Also Carlito, when you mention the GG years people are quick to talk about Hillier, Jensen, Morrow et al. Why don’t they talk about Rocastle, Davies, Smith, Wright, Thomas, Merson etc? GG’s champion teams of ’89 and 91 played some fantastic football built from the base of the best defence ever to play in England.
HI Total. you obviously got a good night sleep. I can find nothing to argue with at all in your 1:16 post 🙂
@ Total
Welcome back. We all get overheated at times.
@ Rasp
I think there was little reaction to your Cesc comment because (today at least) there’s a bit of a sense of indifference among the faithful. Cesc’s going? Is he? OK. Cesc’s staying? Is he? OK.
26 MAY,and Goonerinexile – an extract from the article (quote ) ; Wenger said: “The squad will be stretched, but I have 25 players of the same quality – I have never had a squad of this equal strength in my life.”
First point; Is the starting eleven not PART of the OVERALL squad of 25 players ? And he says they are of the SAME QUALITY, i.e. identical.
Second point ; note the words “I have NEVER” ( had a squad, e.t.c. ). “Never” means not ever, that includes all other squads. Most blog writers seem to see it the way I do.
If this is not what he meant, he should have chosen his words more carefully.
The point is, that this demonstrates poor judgement on Wenger’s part.Which has been borne out by the team’s failure again this season.
Rocky I think you are right the whole Cesc situation has entered the realms of cry wolf.
Hi Rocky, I agree. I suffered from Vieira fatigue, then Henry fatigue and now the ongoing is he/isn’t he, Cesc saga is draining my enthusiasm.
I only want players who want to play for us – or am I being naive?
Rocky I agree with you about GG’s teams, I had the conversation with a ManChav who was saying “you didn’t complain when you won the league that way”.
The 1-0’s and the turgid long ball came during the cup winning years. His early days (and league successes) were filled with an attacking side which had a solid backside, his later teams had the same backside, a less than enjoyable middle and a prolific striker.
Total
You may have seen the not entirely successful Oliver Stone film, “Alexander”, from a few years ago. In it Ptolemy (played by Anthony Hopkins) says something like true visionaries remain true to their vision, but despite that, neither he (Ptolemy) nor any of Alexander’s other acolytes ever truly believed in Alexander’s vision of an early multi-cultural, pan-European/Asiatic empire, and as soon as he was dead, they carved up the empire Alexander had assembled.
Perhaps that’s a good (if overblown) parallel for Wenger in the infinitely tinier, less consequential world of football. We see stubbornness because we don’t really believe in the vision he has, or rather, we worry about the price to pay to realise it.
But then perhaps all the anti-Wengerites are right, perhaps Wenger is a busted flush, perhaps we shouldn’t continue to believe in him.
In the end I don’t know. Right now, my faith in Wenger’s abilities continues, but I can’t pretend it isn’t being sorely tested by the players’ failures of the past weeks.
Total A. “the bigger picture of the season has not been altered a lot from this game.”
Agree completely. The problems evident this season have been evident for some time, for at least 3 years AW has struggled to establish a sound defence, and any quality side is founded upon it’s defence.
26/Rasp. How can Cesc leaving be construed as a good thing (not that you say that;-) )? He is head and shoulders the best player in the squad (though RvP is true quality). AW must pull out all the stops to keep him at AFC for at least 2 more seasons, until AR & JW develop the required level of tactical maturity.
GIE I still wake up sweating as that long ball whizzes over my head although I am running my heart out in midfield 🙂
Spectrum
You misread that quote: he is saying that he has never had a squad of 25 of the same quality as each other. And if you look at even our best Wenger side, the Invincibles, after the geniuses of Vieira, Henry, Pires and Bergkamp etc, you see names like Wiltord, Cygan, Jeffers and Aliadiere. So you can see why Wenger said what he said.
If he had been asked if the first eleven in 2010-11 is as good as any other he’s had, he might have said so. But that’s not what he said on that occasion.
Unfortunately the general tone/mood around the club right now makes it more likely that Cesc, Nasri and possibly even RvP will think about a move elsewhere.
Hi Raddy, I agree he is the best player in the squad, but I don’t agree that his presence always makes us the best team we can be when other players are disadvantaged by the system deployed to maximise Cesc’s abilities.
Spectrum, 26M and GiE
For your next topic, can you please discuss how many angels can balance on the point of a needle? 🙂
Raddy
Like Rasp, I want players who want to play for us – anything less than that and they are a drain on morale and resources. If Cesc still has the hunger to fight for us, yes, I definitely want him to stay.
Ha ha, very good Rocky! But be careful, I might just do that!!
Spectrum you win….i’m not going to continue an argument on semantics or meaning.
But……
He NEVER said BEST, he NEVER said TEAM. Which was your original quotation of his words!
He said what you (and I earlier) just quoted and its hard to argue with it, they are all of similar quality, there is little to choose between players in each position.
Are they good enough….that’s a different question….was he right that they are of similar quality….maybe not on evidence of matches where the squad has had to fill in.
26.Rasp.
Of course I agree with you both. However, it is a truism that Cesc like all our players is a professional and whether he wants to stay or go SHOULD be irrelevant. As a professional he should give 100% whether he plays for the youth team or at the Nou Camp.
Hi 26, RA,
I think Nasri can play out on the wing, he has the pace but he needs to be told to get stuck in a bit. Arshavin has already tried recently to add a bit of bite to his game, whether that intentional or as a result of frustration I don’t know but both of them can be effective midfielders.
I remember a daft comment by Wenger about Nasri saying he’d even play him as a defensive midfielder. Thats a step further than I could possibly imagine but a more determined, tactical performance on the wing is certainly not beyond him.
So I would hope to see us like this..
Sczcesny
Sagna, Vermaelen, Koscielny, Clichy
Arshavin, Wilshire, Rambo, Nasri
Walcott, RvP
OK, so no Cesc…lets face it, I don’t think physically he’s up to 4-4-2 and if he really wants to go let him go to Barcelona.
Imagine Walcott feeding off of RvP for 90 mins up front. There’s plenty of goals in that. RvP can drop deeper and collect and release Walcott all day. Just like Bergkamp would do to Wright, Anelka, Henry, Ljungberg.
Is that rose tinted glasses? I do think RvP can play that role.
WG
TotalA,
I agree with your 1:16, I am also wobbling a bit with what appears to be AW’s intransigence.
I suppose it is natural for him to be a bit defensive in the face of a great deal of criticism and unhappiness.
On the other hand, he does seem to have moved a bit, in recent days, over the need to bolster his squad with more experienced players.
My concern is that underlying everything he does are very restrictive monetary considerations.
Keeping to a budget is fine, but I hope he does not try to square the circle by buying ‘experienced’ players who are ‘cheap’ and useless.
The old rub about being ‘older and wiser’ is, for many, absolute rubbish. People who are young and stupid, usually end up being ‘older and stupid’. 🙂
The info about the Bristle Cone Forest is interesting. I have visited the Sequoia National Park a couple of times and been gobsmacked by the sheer size of those beautiful trees. 🙂
Arshavin for me has run his race and a new winger with pace is needed, the young Japanese lad would do it were the club able to get a work permit.
In the way we play at the moment we are trying to force results by piling players forward and outnumbering teams rather than outplaying teams.
Two different things, especially when they hit you on the break and score two out of three from it.
If we outplayed Stoke and the like they wouldn’t get that many shots on target, let alone goals.
I think I’m in denial about how bad we actually are…perhaps we are worse than we realise?
Next season will define how good/bad this season was.
WG
I now realise I’m slipping into Arsenal depression..
Ignore me.
WG
Gooner in exile – As I said, the implication was that they were his best.That’s how most writers in the press saw it too.
“little to choose between players in each position”? Is he ( and you ? ) saying that Denilson is the SAME quality in his position as other midfielders ? Or Diaby the same ? Or Almunia the same quality as Szecnesy ? Or Bendtner as good as RVP ? Because that is what Wenger/you are implying, (if that is your interpretation.)
This makes Wenger an even bigger fool.
I’ve just been told by my Italian neighbour that the talk in Italy is Inter are going for Guardiola hence the interest in Fabregas
Hi WG, 🙂
Interesting points you make. Apart from the Theo scoring loads of goals, I agree with a lot of what you say. 🙂
Looking thru’ the blogs this morning it is fascinating to see, in the general malaise over our recent poor performance, how many ‘solutions’ bloggers are coming up with.
Some want a tactical change, others want new defenders, others, again, better midfielders or strikers, or a new manager. One way, or another, they seem to have all eventualities covered.
A billion pounds should cover it! 🙂
There is a glimmer of truth in there somewhere, trouble is which bit is aglimmering?
I do not really know, myself. 😦
Spectrum,
Give it a rest. My boredom threshold has long been exceeded by this non discussion of minutiae.
Wonder if Guardiola would like the MU job when SAF is forced into Rehab?
RA. A billion hasn’t done MC much good
We don’t realy know if Guardiola is any good yet. (cue the derision)
Wigan
I rate Nasri very highly and agree he can (to use an ugly phrase) “do a job” on the wing. But he’s not really a winger. Perhaps he could be the new Pires (who also wasn’t a true winger) but I see him more naturally at home in the centre.
But he wouldn’t be our best CM or attacker in a 442, which to me is the problem with going back to 442 – our personnel are not built for it.
If we did revert, I’d be very happy to recruit someone like Ashley Young. Miyaichi looks fantastic for the future but surely it’s too early for him to be a first teamer – 8 months ago, he was playing Japanese schools football.
GM,
He already has a CL success on his CV, his Barcelona team beat MU in 2009, comfortably.
Hi 26May,
I have not seen Alexander by OS, but can see where you are coming from (do you recommend it?). I think we all desperately want to believe Arsene’s vision, because winning trophies in style is the hardest thing to do, and it’s the only approach that leads to football immortality (Ajax in the early 70’s for example).
Louis van Gaal also said that winning with attacking, attractive football is the hardest thing to do before last year’s CL final with FC Mourinho, and style lost to strategic destruction by the master of pragmatism and result-orientation. Van Gaal is now jobless (mainly because he is almost impossible to get along with).
Like you, I still want to give Wenger another chance and prove that his vision will lead to trophies (and in style). I just hope that he does not believe that he simply can continue without making any significant changes.
HCAA
You could probably manage that team to beat the mancs. He didn’t put the team together and it helps when you have the best player in the world playing for you.
Hi RA
The Sequoia trees are stunning towers/giants; the bristlecone pines are like old man and women, almost bony and crippled, but of a serene beauty. If you ever have a chance, you should go and see them.
As said in previous posts, I do believe that we need a couple of 30-plussers who have won everything in our team. they should guide/mentor our promising players to the top level that they have within them. I know that my preferred option of getting for example Mark van Bommel or Clarence Seedorf – which we could afford – into our team is not very popular, but I do think that this would make a difference: as much as on the pitch as in the dressing room. Younger, established winners such as Xavi, Iniesta, Alonso or Gerrard are simply to expensive for us.
Cracking post Carlito.
Back later to comment
GM,
True, but Wenger promised to revolutionise us into a footballing world-wide force when he arrived 15 years ago, and that hasn’t happened. I still think it’s a cultural thing. Look at how the English have almost dominated the European competitions. Wenger’s record with us in Europe is shocking.
All agreed Total – not easy being an Arsenal fan on days like this but here’s hoping AW gets his cleaver out.
As for “Alexander”, its somewhere between ok and good. Given Alexander’s expansive and murderous exploits took him from Greece to Egypt to Babylon to Persia and then all the way to India, all within seven years, the subject matter is a tough one to squeeze into a film, especially given the need to explore the characters and not just name check the carnage of the many battles. And Stone doesn’t entirely succeed, but it’s still an interesting film.
Since 1999 English teams have won it 3 times, that’s not really domination. English teams won 7 on the trot before the ban if that’s what you mean. I agree our CL record is shocking. Playing group games at Wembley was stupid too.
My brother worked on that Alexander film. It’s pants!
I know all you fans are a bit low. Arsenal always does this to us.Here’s an article just to cheer you up:
One of my favourite sporting quotes, from brilliant darts broadcaster Sid Lowe:
“”When Alexander of Macedonia was 33, he cried salt tears because there were no more worlds left to conquer… Bristow’s only 27.”
GM,
i’m talking over-all, European Cup, the now defunct CWC, and UEFA Cup. Since their inception, English club’s record stand up against the best. Winners, losing finalists, semi-finalists, we’re probably top of the tree. It angers me to the point of blood-boiling that we don’t have at least 1 European Cup/CL, especially after 14 successive years of “competing” in the competition.
Just noticed I’d left my name from Saturday. I’m not lonely really.
We’ve obviously been finalist although we’ve gone backwards since. It depresses me more than angers me.
What gets me is that most Arsenal fans seem to be very accepting of that. As if to say, “It’s ok that we haven’t won the European Cup, at least we’re trying…” Something akin to Wenger’s rhetoric. If you judge losing at Braga and not winning a ‘gimme’ group, and the inept performance at Camp Nou as a “worthy” attempt at winning the competition, I fail to see the relevance of qualifying every year. Either put in a barn-storming effort to get the thing won, or simply give it up.
Total
Your talk of ancient Bristlecones tweaked my interest. I’d always thought the Sequoias in California and Kauris in New Zealand were the oldest. But wiki bears out your reference as far as non-clonal trees are concerned (no, I haven’t checked what that means). However there is apparently an older tree, a pine (apparently a clonal tee) in Sweden thought to be 9500 years old. See http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_treesfor more info.
HCAA
When you say “most” I think it’s realy “some”. I’m not happy and I don’t know any that are.
Can I play devil’s advocate and suggest this is the worst case scenario for our transfer summer?
No objections ? 🙂
OK here goes:
Vermaelen – back from injury, he’s “Like a new signing” so there’s no need to sign another defender.
Cesc goes – Rambo back from injury , he’s “Like a new signing” so there’s no need to sign a replacement.
Arshavin goes – Vela back from loan, he’s “Like a new signing” so there’s no need to sign a replacement.
We half heartedly pursue a winger and a new goalie but don’t want to kill Martinez or Ebecillio so we sign no one.
Denilson, Almunia, Eboue, Bendtner and and Diaby get new deals and there’s no cash left in the kitty.
Can it be any worse than that ?
TotalA,
I’m a bit housebound at the mo’, but I hope to go back to the US for a couple of months next October, and will try and fit in a snowy trip to see them. :=)
I think there was a bit of a misunderstanding about Van Bommel etc. What I did not make clear was that all the talk from the fans who I think Arsene might try and placate, is about Subotic, Cahill, etc, and they would probably see Van B and other 30+ acquisitions as sops to keep them quiet.
Looking back, I realise I did not make that clear. Sorry.
What any of those guys would bring, of course, is leadership, in spades. Let’s see what happens.
CharyB,
And to think I used to think you were cynical! 🙂
Yeah, I am being teeny-weeny bit world-weary about our transfers RedA.
I do fear the use of the “Like a new signing” phrase in our August pre match peressers.
Arrgghh…I can hear it in my head already.
How about we send Chesney on loan and say Fabianski and Almunia are like new signings?
Wow, hadn’t thought of that one GM – makes sense, send our most improved goalie out on loan and bring Moonie back.
Good times. 🙂
HCAA,
So let’s sum up?
a) You hate Wenger with a vengeance and do not have a good word to say about him.
b)You think all Arsenal players are gutless, overpaid and have a cheek wearing the red and white shirt.
c) The club management are mercenary b*stards and keep rooking the paying customers … sorry, fans.
d) As a club we are unsuccessful both in the EPL and in Europe, and you see no likelihood of that changing.
a) You hate Wenger with a vengeance and do not have a good word to say about him.
b)You think all Arsenal players are gutless, overpaid and have a cheek wearing the red and white shirt.
c) The club management are mercenary b*stards and keep rooking the paying customers … sorry, fans.
d) As a club we are unsuccessful both in the EPL and in Europe, and you see no likelihood of that changing.
Oops, you repeat yourself so often you have got me doing it.
Please feel free to add any further diatribes to the list, and then perhaps we can move on.
You are hurting my metaphorical ears, rather like Katherine in the Taming of the Shrew.
Incidentally, and I’m not sure I’m bothered, with all your issues, why do you support Arsenal? A better question might be – do you really support Arsenal, and if so how do you show it?
CharyB, 🙂
No. No.
HCAA, with the best will in the world, I find I am not bothered, treat the questions as rhetorical and don’t respond.
RedA, amidst the fall out from yesterday’s humiliation by the Stoke cavemen did we all wish each other Happy (officiall) St Totteringham’s day on Saturday ?
BTW, who are we rooting for tomorrow when the N17 Swampies play Arab City ?
Actually, CharyB, I would be telling porkies if I pretended I did not have similar thoughts coursing thru’ my brain sometimes.
You missed out on; — I will only bring in players who improve the quality in the squad. Qu’est-ce que c’est?
Or, — my squad will be a year older and more mentally mature. The Arsenal Board of Quotes for thr Fans, Page 31, Para 3b.
[I am being wicked, but there is an element of that in Arsene’s utterances each Summer!] 🙂
A draw or a spud win as I really think it would be rubbing salt in the wound coming 4th in a piss poor league.
CharyB,
For me the Citeh are nouveau riche and I am both jealous of their wealth and yet I despise their money centred grubbiness.
For me, I want the Sp*ds to miss out on Europe, and if they beat Citeh, they will still have a chance. Yeuk. So, Citeh for me, however reluctantly. 😦
The usual Chary. Draw. Massive punch up. Both heavy points deduction.
Afternoon all.
Well done RA! Top marks for that. I did put forward a synopsis yesterday, but with everyone licking their collective wounds whilst still 100% supporting the chosen one, people maybe weren’t in the mood. Obviously 2nd, 3rd or 4th is good with you, and in spite of many many performances like those yesterday, how dare we question our manager’s ability. He got us to the last 16 in CL you know.
I was just talking to my manc colleague. He says he feels sorry for Wenger as he thinks the players let him down big time. He also thought yeaterday was the worst Arsenal performance he’s seen in a long time.
I’m a bit surprised at that GM.
If the Sp*ds make it into Europe, the Twitcher will be hailed as the Great Messiah, and the swampies will bask in the reflected glow!
I think what I’m feeling/expressing about our summer 2011 transfer activity RedA passes for gallows humour at the moment.
We all know it’s going to a grim time, regarding players out and in this summer so it’s probably best to prepare ourselves for the worst case scenario.
Help me out here.
I really do see the appeal of Theo central, with RvP in the DB10 role. Here is my problem. No height. How do we work the system. Wrighty had Smudger. Can RvP play Large to Theo’s Little?
MDi89 – I think Robin has got a pretty good spring in his leap, it’s certainly worth a punt I reckon.
The spuds won’t get into the CL. Stoke and Brum are in the other one. Fulham and Boro got to the final. Nothing to brag about
Micky micky micky…to quote Doc in BTTF
height? where we’re going we don’t need height….
Theo is small and quick so he can run in between those huge centre backs legs when RvP plays him the ball with so much deft and spin that the centre backs fall over themselves
Hi HCAA,
I’m afraid that in-fighting is the inevitable consequence of disquiet. I’m pleased with the way people have conducted themselves on AA compared to other sites and I include you in that.
If we were a Tennis player, we’d be Tim Henman. Why don’t you tell me how to be an Arsenal fan RA? Please explain to me why Wenger hasn’t delivered on his promise to make us a world force, and after the performances of the last three years, why you think Wenger still has the tactical nous to win the PL or CL, instead of chucking your toys?
I say we have the players for 3-5-2!
So an injury/red-card ridden nil nil in tomorrows game it is then.
It would be horrendous if we dropped to fourth, although not inconceivable the way we’ve folded in the 2nd half of the season.
Thank you Rasp, much appreciated.
Oh jeepers Chary. Are you saying we want a Spurs win tomorrow?
HCAA,
There you go again.
— ‘everyone licking their collective wounds whilst still 100% supporting the chosen one, people maybe weren’t in the mood. Obviously 2nd, 3rd or 4th is good with you’ —
How dare you presume to know my views?
Anyway, I don’t care about the ancient Jedi legend that foretold the coming of a Chosen One who would restore balance to the force because I don’t believe for one minute that they meant Arsene Wenger.
So there!
Does the 100% include you? No, of course not. Everyone is stupid, except you.
I guess this is where my problem comes, the infighting caused by the disquiet is causing problems at games, definitely at the Emirates and as I experienced away at the Reebok.
We are not united in our defence of the team, some would say they are beyond that anyway.
But this serious split in the fans, regrettably will eventually lead to Wenger’s downfall. If enough negative noise is made on Sunday perhaps he or the board will call time on this era and some fans will get their wishes answered.
I am sick and tired of the press telling us we are bad, its an easy hack job, i don’t want to hear our fans doing the same, constructive criticism is better than beating whatever remains of our belief.
I’m beginning to think Wenger should go, at least we would know one way or another about how good or otherwise he is. Points will be proven one way or another.
I know I and most on here would still be there supporting them wherever the change takes us. But if it doesn’t work out what of the fans who have called for his head, where will they be?
No Mdi89 – a draw will be the best case scenario and as long as we get something from Villa we should at least get 3rd(he said not too conifdently.)
Which reminds me, anyone know the preliminary attendance for Sunday’s AA end of season piss up at the Tavern?
RA,
I was told yesterday this is a pro-Wenger site, and I wouldn’t be so disrespectful as to assume any individuals level of intelligence. Instead of negatively criticising, I refer you to my 4:44.
HCAA,
I have not at any time criticised you.
Well, except I am just bored by your repetetive slandering of AW and telling us we are lemmings blindly following the Chosen One.
Why don’t you try and say something positive about the club, or the players, even if you cannot bring yourself to give AW any credit.
At the moment you come across like Violet Elizabeth Bott in Enid Blyton’s Just William. If you don’t get your way by forcing us to read your endless prattling, you seem to be on the verge of ‘squeaming and squeaming’, just like her. 🙂
HCAA
a “broadly” pro Wenger site. Not a blindly hero worshipping site Or A K B as some would like to say.
Have any of you noticed that for all our seemingly brilliant youngsters in the youth teams, relatively few have come thru’ to the England U16’s and upwards.
Could this explain why Young Guns are reporting that Samir Bihimoutine, our latest whizz kid has rejected England and opted for Morocco instead.
Loads of other kids, born in the UK, are choosing to represent the countries of their parents.
I wonder why? Not as good as we have been led to believe? Or is their another reason.
Maybe they will all become Yanks! 🙂
HCAA
No one has ever said this is a pro Wenger site, once again you have chosen to focus on just part of an original sentence.
If you could choose between playing for Ghana or playing with rooney etc who would you choose? Ghana have more chance of succes in the WC than that shower of sh**
Well done micky and chary for adding some humour to todays somewhat repetetive moaning – you forgot about Frimpong 😆
Never want a scum win!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I was expecting a more intelligent, reasoned assessment than that RA. Never mind. I personally think Arsenal are lost and in a dark place, and it concerns me to the point where it affects my well-being. We need major surgery. Not next year or in two years, now, and it is my humble opinion that Wenger is incapable of performing such surgery. After 15 years in charge, his team should not still be performing as they were three years ago. Watching Arsenal is like watching a replay of a goal you concede, and convincing yourself on the 5th or 6th viewing that it won’t go in this time, but it does of course, because it’s a replay. I have asked you to tell me how to be an Arsenal fan and why you think Wenger still has the tactical ability to deliver the big trophies, but you have come back with nothing. If you don’t like what I say, I am happy to stop visiting your site.
Someone please explain to me how on earth Walcott could play through the middle?
Peacher,
Who forgot about Frimpong? 🙂
The kids I was referring to are; Connor Henderson, Daniel Boateng, Ben Glasgow, Steven Smith, Phil Roberts, Calum Webb, Chuks Anneke, (and there may have been others). Oh, and PingPong! 🙂
Peaches
They are all scum
HCAA – as I told you last night there are many on here that have felt the need to criticise AW recently. Some are happy to come out and say what they think whereas others are more reticent.
We are all Arsenal supporters and its that that binds us, someone put a first comment on this morning and I wondered how he had managed not to turn to the blogs for support during the last two years. For some the realisation has come later than for others.
RA – it was chary’s/mickey’s “new signings” 🙂
HCAA,
Look, it is not my site, and I have no wish for you to stop commenting on here.
It is obvious from your comments, and what you have just written that things are getting on top of you.
Join in with the debate, say your piece and it will be respected.
We do not all agree with each other, despite what you seem to think, and we do not all slavishly kow tow to AW, (see my comments with CharyB at 4:24 and 4:30).
You need to lighten up and join in with the humour, it will do you a power of good. We all feel cheesed off and we all love Arsenal (including you, too) but it helps to try and see the good as well as the bad and also have a laugh.
If you stick around you will find some very good and amusing company on here, just give us a chance. OK? 🙂
London,
I was para-phrasing, that’s all. Peaches – Realisation of what exactly? Wenger promised to make us a world-force, and 15 years later we’re still no-where near. Is there some doubt with that assessment?
Thank you RA and well done 😀
HCAA – I reckon AW is pretty shocked himself at how things have panned out this season.
I just thought it was interesting that someone only decided to turn to the blogs this morning – that was what the guy said – I’ve been moaning about stuff for nearly three years!!!!!!!! Letting Gilberto, Flamini and Hleb go in the same summer was enough to push me over the edge 😆
London, I expect we are as one on this ‘Theo thru the middle’ lark! 🙂
I saw him take our youth team apart for Southampton, several years ago, and he was also a fantastic finisher. I was thrilled when we bought him.
Now, out on the wing, he seems to delight in running into the oppo full backs. In the centre? I dread to think how he would get on. I hope GIE is right and I am wrong … could be the making of him, because he is wasted out on the wing.
Realisation that things have gone wrong – that the team lack strength and a winning mentality that maybe building the team around Cesc shouldn’t have been the ‘be all and end all’ that having a striker like Nik and using him as a winger time and time again was madness …….. I could go on and on and on ……. as only a woman can 😆
RA,
I appreciate your comment, and I have a sense of humour like everyone else. I do take football very seriously and am from the Bill Shankly school of thought. Times have changed, of course, but The Arsenal winning and losing is everything to me. I really am convinced that Arsene Wenger has not utilised what he’s had at his disposal to its full potential, and as an Arsenal fan, that is the very least I expect of any manager. We only have to look at the GK and defence to see that. I apologise if my emotions sometimes get carried away and it pisses you all off.
Peacher, you have undermined my male sensibilities, I think I absolutely agree with your 5:47 comment, does that …. does that…. make me a ….. a woman?
(hides his face in shocked embarrassment)! 😦
London 5:27,
My problem with Theo is that he cannot cross, so is of little use should we switch to a 4-4-2, and I don’t think he is that effective on the right of a 3, so that leaves me trying to find somewhere central. My earlier comment was supposed to imply that I do not see a place for him in the same side as RvP. Unless of course we find him some high heels, in which case he starts up front central with RvP just behind.
Micky Most people including Theo thinks he should be through the middle. Wenger is doing what he did with Henry I think.
RA I’m afraid I am in your campsite with London. My comment (about running thru legs) was meant to be humorous maybe today it’s necessary to add a wink for clarity. 🙂
You raise an interesting point about youngsters choosing to go and play for the country of their parents. I’m guessing it stems from something HCAA said about our non-British approach. Or is it a Giggs situation where they played England schoolboys because that’s the rules about where you go to school (like Frimpong) rather than what your national identity is.
Not at all HCAA. 🙂
You will soon come to know all of us and, in truth, letting off steam really does help.
Many will agree with your sentiments and you are certainly not alone with your concerns, and I think even AW would do things differently if he could have his time over again.
I am probably the village idiot on AA, with incorrigible humour, and I delight in teasing everyone, so provided you occasionally laugh at me, and my nemesis, Mickydidit89, and don’t take me too seriously, we will get on famously! 🙂
Promise me you will try and say something positive, even if it is only that Peaches and Evonne are gorgeous, at least once a day! 🙂
Welcome to the gang.
I know you were kidding, GIE, but it’s satisfying to blame you flippin’ accountants! 🙂
Right enough of this sadness, time for a terrible joke to make you realise there is something worse than losing a footie game! 🙂
Three golfing partners died in a car wreck and went to heaven. Upon arrival they discover the most beautiful golf course they had ever seen. St. Peter tells them that they are all welcome to play the course, but he cautions them that there is only one rule:
Don’t hit the ducks.
The men all have blank expressions, and finally one of them asks “The ducks?”
“Yes”, St. Peter replies, “There are millions of ducks walking around the course and if one gets hit, he squawks then the one next to him squawks and soon they’re all squawkin to beat the band, and it really breaks the tranquility.
If you hit the ducks, you’ll be punished, otherwise everything is yours to enjoy.”
After entering the course, the men noted that there was indeed a gaggle of ducks everywhere.
Within fifteen minutes, one of the guys hit one of them. The duck squawked, the one next to it squawked and soon there was a deafening roar of duck quacks.
St. Peter walked up with an extremely homely woman in tow and asked “Who hit the duck?”
The one who had done it admitted “I did.”
Immediately, St. Peter pulled out a pair of handcuffs and cuffed the man’s right hand to the homely woman’s left hand. “I told you not to hit the ducks,” he said.
“Now you’ll be handcuffed together for eternity.
The other two men were very cautious not to hit any ducks, but a couple of weeks later, one of them accidentally did.
The quacks were as deafening as before and within minutes St. Peter walked up with an even uglier woman than before. St. Peter determined which one had hit the duck by the fear on his face, and cuffed the man’s right hand to the homely woman’s left hand.
“I told you not to hit the ducks”, he said, sadly. “Now you’ll be handcuffed together for eternity.”
The third man was extremely careful. Some days he wouldn’t even move for fear of even nudging a duck.
After three months of this he still hadn’t hit a duck.
Then St. Peter walked up to the man at the end of the three months and had with him a knock-out gorgeous woman, the most beautiful woman the man had ever seen.
St. Peter smiled at the man and then, without a word, handcuffed him to the beautiful woman and walked off.
The man, knowing that he would be handcuffed to this woman for eternity, let out a sigh and said “What have I done to deserve this?”
The woman responded “Well, I don’t know about you, but I hit a f**king duck.”
Peaches and Evonne are gorgeous, obviously.
HCAA, 🙂
It’s been a mental day at work and I still haven’t had time to read all the comments. I just want to say that I completely agree with Wonderman’s comments about tactics and team responsibility for poor defence. In my rage, I advocated the GG style of Arsenal but in reality- all I want is the defensive side back- pretty much the early Wenger years. I fully agree with WM that it’s not a case of personnel but a training, tactical and teamwork thing….
London, RA- Theo through the middle- it would be a lovely thing but not a hope of it happening if we keep a high line- counter attacking football pure and simple is the only way I see it working…
NIce one RA! 😆
The good news is: my wife finally gets back from Italy after a long month helping her convalescing mother- it’s gonna feel good to be in those handcuffs again! Incidently- the Spanish call handcuffs “esposas” which is derived from the same stem as our “spouse”!
Carlito,
That’s why I have been advocating retaining possession in our own half, with defence splitting balls when the oppo comes out to get the ball, and this will enable Theo (?) to use his speed to break the oppo’s defensive line.
Arsene’s tactics putting tall, cumbersome players like Bendy on the wing, is incomprehensible, as we have said before.
Hi 26May
I tried the link but it does not seem to get me anywhere. I will look into it and get back to you though.
Later everyone. I’m off home.
Carlito,
I am pleased for you, (re your wife). Being cosseted by the missus is every man’s wish and delight! 🙂
That will make you feel better, and you have had time to come up with a suitable excuse for the mangled chair! 🙂
HI RA
I can totally see that the fans would be peed off if the only signing this season is Van Bommel (especially if superCesc would leave). But what if we got say Alonso and Van Bommel, or even Scott Parker and Van Bommel. Then straigthaway we might feel better and yet we do not have to totally break the bank to get these sort of players.
Did you know, by the way, that over the weekend Van Bommel became the first player to win a championship in four different countries (Hol, Ger, Spain, Italy)?
TotalA,
Don’t take any notice of 26, he is our resident lawyer and a right show off! 🙂
TotalA,
I did not know that, about Van B.
Actually, if AW bought a combination of those players the fans might well be v. happy, and more importantly might be just the thing the team need.
Between you and I, I would be happy providing we make a positive move forward.
More of the ‘same, same’ is not acceptable, obviously.
Having bored the arses off everyone today, I am now off for some yeuky medication!
See you tomorrow! 🙂
TotalArsenal- you may be right that VanBommel or a player of that standing in the international game could be the missing ingredient in being the catalyst for developing the “winning mentality”. A real shame to think that if we could have held on to big Pat (above all the others we let go) we may never have had to resort to this 😦 ❗ btw 26M’s link ran into the next word of his post. If you delete the last word off the link you’ll get there…
Thanks RA 🙂 Chair was crap anyway- should hope that she won’t even notice!
Thanks 26m & Carlito re oldest tree link. Point taken on the ‘non-clonal’ trees. Yes, there might be individual trees that are believed to be older, but the bristlecone pines are still growing together in ‘colonies’, and as such are being ‘collectively the oldest things’. Haha, I never thought this morning I would be talking about this…
Carlito11, yes it is a big shame that we let Viera go so soon and subsequently Gilberto.
There are a few good precedents in Holland on how bringing in an experienced 30+ player for a couple of years can help a young and talented team make the final step up. The best one by far is back in 1993 when Frank Rijkaard returned to Ajax and captained the side for two years. Young, supertalents like Edgar Davids, Ronald de Boer, Clarence seedorf and Patrick Kluivert looked up to Rijkaard, and he had a big impact on Ajax winning absolutely everything in 1995 with effectively a youth team.
Of course, there are no guarantees that this would work for Arsenal now as it did for Ajax back then. It would also be difficult to find somebody now who is of the calibre of Rijkaard back then.
I think that’s the biggest problem TA.
Whoever comes in has to believe in Wengers philosophy on football, be able to encourage rather than abuse the youngsters and lead by example.
To be fair Sagna is 28, Arsh 30, Rosicky 30 are already in the squad with experience, but without winning experience (except Arsh)
Is Puyol or Abidal going to become available both in 30’s may look for new challenges, swap deal with Cesc?
Id also would like someone like Muller (altho young) who has drive (or thrust as Micky likes).
Flamini I’d bring back at a heartbeat, Gattuso could come with him.
But if we add it has to be steel it has to be winners but they have to be team players.
Been travelling today (to New York).
Things were still a bit fractious on here when I left but it’s nice to see harmony has now broken out.
Of course, harmony is not the same as conformity. We all have different views although (to paraphrase Orwell) some are more different than others.
My view for tonight is that Redders’ joke is very funny.
And that maybe we could help van Bommell become the first player to win the league in FIVE countries.
TA
I like the abbreviated form of your name: TA – an Arsenal legend.
HCAA
Can’t fathom yours out. Herbert Chapman Always Arsenal??
He Cherishes Arsenal Arsenal?
26may 😀
😀 26
Here Comes Arsenes Axe?
Herbert Chapman’s Arsenal Army.
This pic is from inside the stadium, part of the ‘arsenalisation’.
http://twitpic.com/4vs4at
Morning Chas, that is very good ‘It is laid down by the law that the team that scores most goals wins’
Simples
Morning Chas and Evonne.
Ah but Evonne, you did not read the small print in the Chas link. It bangs on about being built on a solid defence, which brings me nicely on to an issue. How can we possibly know how good our defence really is, when given that the understanding between the two CB’s and GK is paramount, and yet we have never seen them in action ie Ches, TV and JD?
Chas,
Exactly how extensive is your Nigella picture library, and does she need to be concerned?
Come out and playay..
Oh bugger, back to accounts then.
morning Evonne and Micky
haha, Nigella needn’t worry.
“….you must make sure the defence is sound”
Good morning all you good peeps, and Micky, 🙂
Morning Micky – I did read the small print re defence, but the ‘team that scores most goals wins’ says it all – you scored more goals than the opponent and therefore you won the game. Team that won most games during any season wins the League, even if we let a few in
Simples 🙂
Not necessarily, Evonne, 🙂
In a 20 game league for example;
A = Played 20, Won 11, Lost 9, Drawn 0 = 33 points
B = Played 20, Won 10, Lost 0, Drawn 10 = 40 points
The team that won most games lst the league. N’est-ce pas? 🙂
Trust an accountant to prove a mathematical quirk 😉
Red Arse the Argumentative – morning!
Team A lost 9 games, ‘my’ team always scores most goals and therefore loses no games. Easy, no 🙂
Morning all
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