Where is the respect?

The world of football has changed in so many ways since first I clambered up the steps at Highbury and looked down in awe at the scene before me; an oblong of green set at the bottom of a man made bowl, the concrete sides towering above it. There it was the home of my schoolboy dreams, the canvass on which I had for all my growing years drawn  in my mind’s eye the daring deeds which I, “Roy of the Arsenal” had performed heroically, defeating all and sundry with magical skills and wondrous last minute goals.

It had not been easy being a gooner, raised in a family of spuds and living  many miles from the ground despite having been born In Walthamstow. Indeed in those days I don’t remember being called gooners, we were the Gunners and proud of it.

But in the fullness of time a gooner I became, the umbilical cord of that born again experience, when first I discovered the team that played with the cannon on its chest, still keeps me joined some sixty years later to the wonderful club that has meant so much to me over the years.

Still from those far off days, it is the humour I remember from watching the Arse, the banter with the oppositions supporters was, pointed, cutting and at times downright hilarious . We had the morons of course, but they were few and far between and usually dealt with by the crowd itself.

The days of the football hooligans that led to all seated stadia lay well in the future, these were the days when we didn’t win anything but still the humour remained, It was a scouser who I first heard tell an Arsenal player “he was as much use as a chocolate teapot” and another as “useful as a third tit on a nun”.

Arsenal fans at King’s Cross to catch the special trains to Huddersfield for the FA Cup semi final against Grimbsy, 21st March 1936. Arsenal won 1-0

So where I wonder did the hatred come from, the obscene chants that are classed by many as funny these days. Even our refined, cultured, intelligent manager is bombarded on a weekly basis by brainless choirs regurgitating accusations  far too vile and scurrilous for repetition on any blog with aspirations to quality.

Tribalism is fine, it helps the common cause and binds the supporters together in a collective quest to play their part in motivating and driving the team onwards and upwards, supports them through tough times and rejoices in their success.

But why the sectarianism, racism and the vitriol poured on rival supporters, particularly in our case the spuds and Chavs

Yes I know there are those that will say football grounds are not the home of knitting circles. But where is the respect for the skills of opposing players, who if the truth was told, we would love to see in our shirt, and the supporters who had they been born, like us in different places would in all likelihood support some other team.

I have never been to the Emirates, but read constantly the comments of those that do, that we don’t support or cheer our team enough, maybe, and here I can only surmise, maybe the trend to abuse more than support, and attrition rather than respect, is what keeps the much derided corporate customers embarrassed and quiet.

Writen by dandan

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155 Responses to Where is the respect?

  1. oz gunner says:

    morning all.

    haha chas, good choice!

    Evonne, bugger nigella or the weather girl i don’t rate them. Give me my mrs, then miranda kerr any day.

    @ Dandan

    great read, always love reading kelsey and your stories of Arsenal.

    as for respect, screaming abuse at our team is not on, other teams it’s fine by me as long as it’s tasteful. For rooney + terry…fair game i say.

  2. Arsenal to face AC Milan in Champions League

    http://wp.me/p23rJI-13

  3. TotalArsenal says:

    DanDan, thanks for a good post :)

    Of course, in principle, I agree with you on showing respect to our and opposition players/teams. Football is a way for people to let off steam, to shout in public, to vent their anger about the general disappointments of life, work, relationships, etc. In that way football, and especially referees, does a lot of good for society. I can live with that as long as there is no racism or the abuse gets of a very personal/painfull nature.

    My first major English football game was Everton – Aston Villa, back in 1993. Everton were all white and Aston Villa had a few black players. I was shocked to hear the vitriolic racisim around me, and felt I had gone back in time by 20 years or so. Luckily, this has now mostly disappeared.

    Also, there is a thin line between being respectless and being funny. The Fulham away fans sang a few weeks ago: ‘we are winning away, how shit are you’ – a good example of that thin line.

  4. Rasp says:

    Morning,

    Thanks for the timely reminder dandan – playing AC doesn’t seem so bad now :P

    http://www.teoti.co.uk/sports/99255-football-fans-19001940.html

    I came across this site when looking for pictures. There are some wonderful old B&W pics of football supporters. I was particularly impressed with the seemingly effortless balancing act of the Burnley supporters.

  5. TotalArsenal says:

    Chas, what are you doing to us! From the lovely Nigella, who would devour Miranda Kerr in a flash – Oz she is a pussycat compared to the Puma Nigella – to the brutal, brazen ugliness of Rory DeFlap!!! Absolutely shocking – you must like Evonne a lot to make such a sacrifice! :P

  6. oz gunner says:

    crazy TA, give me a pussycat over a puma any day of the week.

    Perhaps megan gale is more to your liking then?

  7. TotalArsenal says:

    Hi Oz, yep she looks tigerish. Is she one of Australia’s finest?

    Rasp, great pictures. I love the one you used for DD’s post!

  8. evonne says:

    Dandan – very good post, made me stop and think. Hmmmm…..there isn’t much abuse thrown at the opposition at Emirates, mostly booing of ex-Spurs and some ex-Arsenal. Only those sitting near the goals and corners give it a large one.

    Why the hatred of some teams? I am not sure, but I think because of their supporters. I didn’t hate ManU or Spurs until my team was abused by their supporters. And there is the different hatred towards the Chavs and the Oilies, becasue of the way they climbed to the top, not through hard work and skill, but slid there on the greasy money.

    Thank you for the post.

  9. Rasp says:

    Morning TA,

    If I had a time machine, I’d love to go back to one of those early games when the camaraderie seemed so much more ingrained, they seem to have had a much better time than the angst which surrounds going to football these days.

  10. oz gunner says:

    Yeah TA, Oz’s first supermodel

  11. evonne says:

    I am sure that most of you know this little trivia, but in case you don’t – did you know that we, the Arsenal played our games during the WW2 at Shite Heart Lane?? It couldn’t happen today, they wouldn’t let us, no way

  12. Red Arse says:

    Morning Dandan, :-)

    I have always been a fan of your Posts partly because they have often dealt with the more difficult aspects of delicate subjects.

    This Post is no exception and has highlighted an unsavoury footballing problem which sadly is a reflection of contemporary society at large.

    You do not need me to say that your way of expressing yourself is straightforward, precise and is beautifully written.
    But there, I have said it anyway!!

    You can tell that I enjoyed it. :-)

  13. TotalArsenal says:

    Morning Rasp. I can see what you mean. In the top picture, there seems to be a guy in his stripy PJ’s or has he just returned from jail? :)

    Morning Evonne, I did know that and yes it would not happen again :)

  14. pat says:

    oz what about elle – to me she will always be my first ;-)
    http://www.celebpicturesnow.com/img-elle%20macpherson%20wallpaper%2001-2951.html

  15. Red Arse says:

    Oz,

    I thought Elle was the first Aussie model?

    There are some who would claim the first attractive models were those nice cuddly sheep with long eyelashes that fulfilled their ultimate desires, when all else failed.
    (Ask TerryM! :-) )

  16. goonermichael says:

    Great post. Sadly life in general has changed and respect has gone probably forever. Everything is instant gratification.

    Evonne
    Bruce Forsythe actually supports us and the spuds as aresult of seeing both teams play at shite hart lane. I think Highbury was used as an anti aircraft battery.

  17. Red Arse says:

    Evonne,

    I think First Division football stopped in 1939, because of WW2, and did not restart until 1945/46.

    Games that were played during the war were really only friendlies composed of players from the Armed Forces etc, even tho’ representing the First Division clubs.

    Arsenal lost 9 players, killed in action, from the team that won the 1938/39 title — so AFC playing at WHL may not be quite what it seems.

    (I have not Googled the above – so some facts may be inaccurate, but I remember my dad talking about this when I was a kid).

  18. goonermichael says:

    http://www.zimbio.com/dating/N4OxJxl58Fa/Devon+Aoki+engaged+James+Bailey/Devon+Aoki

    Devon Aoki for me any day. And her dad owns Benihana.
    :)

  19. MickyDidIt89 says:

    dandan,
    An excellent piece of writing that highlights some of the problems within society at large.
    I have very high hopes that a good five years of deep austerity cuts might knock some vaules back into the “I got rights yer know”‘s.

  20. MickyDidIt89 says:

    Ooo er GM,
    I fancy the bloke more than the woman!

  21. MickyDidIt89 says:

    Can’t see the video. I think you need to have signed away your life on facelift to view it :-(

  22. goonermichael says:

    I loved that film in the seventies

  23. MickyDidIt89 says:

    Okedoke,
    Off for a non football day.

  24. goonermichael says:

    Mickey it’s from “everything you wanted to know about sex” the Woody Allen film.

  25. gunnern5 says:

    AW: Losing young players painful

    Saturday 17th December 2011 8:58

    Arsene Wenger feels he is always brave to give young players a chance – but that it was painful to watch Manchester City raid his squad again.

    Midfielder Samir Nasri, 24, and full-back Gael Clichy, 26, followed striker Emmanuel Adebayor and centre-half Kolo Toure from Emirates Stadium to join the Blues, who have set the pace at the top of the Premier League.

    After taking a chance to bring all of those players through with Arsenal, Wenger admits there will always be a sense of frustration at potential lost.

    “At the end of the day when you sell a player, you cannot complain after because at some stage you say ‘yes we let him go’ and you have to do the right thing for the club, but it is always painful to lose players at 23 or 24 years old,” he said.

    “The financial difference between us and teams like Manchester City has become too big to hope to keep the players for eight, nine or 10 years.

    “Okay, we lost Thierry Henry, Patrick Vieira, other players before, but they had played for eight or nine years at the club.

    “It is the first time now that we lose players at an age where they start to produce, like [Cesc] Fabregas and Nasri, who were both 24 years old. That’s where you start to become a football player.”

    Wenger added: “You need to be brave as well to put a player in at 18 years of age, and you need to make room for them, which means you not only need to stand up for the players you put in, but as well you have to kick somebody out.”

    While Wenger may be looking to the future with a young squad, the Arsenal manager maintains he has not given serious thought to a possible return for former captain Henry, who has been training at the club following the end of the Major League Soccer campaign with the New York Red Bulls.

    “I haven’t even investigated that. I cannot tell you even if there is a chance because I haven’t even made any approach, nor to him nor his club,” said Wenger, who played down reports he would move for FC Koln’s German striker Lukas Podolski in January.

    “I do not always master all my thoughts, so [I guess] it has to come through my brain at some stage – but I haven’t been concrete on the case.”

    Fired by the goals of in-form captain Robin van Persie, Arsenal head to City on the back of seven wins from the last eight league games which have lifted them back up to within striking distance of the top four.

    “There is a good, good spirit there. I am sure we will give absolutely 100%,” said Wenger.

    “The game on Sunday will show how far we can go. I am sure this group will fight to go as far as they can.”
    .

  26. 26may1989 says:

    Dandan, as one who is decidedly old fashioned on the issue of respect (generally and in football), I applaud your post, excellent stuff.

    Some of the changes are societal; the decline in class and age based deference, the growth of a rights-based culture, consumerism and individualism. Technology has been part of it too – we love having little “places” like AA to “meet”, but one of the reasons the regulars here tend to like it is the absence of the abusive, enraged bloggers who dominate the mainstream. And I don’t just mean in football-world: I remember seeing a parents’ online forum on the topic of kids’ TV, and there were some vitriolic, personalised attacks on CBeebies presenters. Many people seem to think being hidden by a keyboard means they can behave in a different way.

    But within football, we should acknowledge our opponents achievements and successes, especially when they’ve triumphed against the odds. It’s a sport and achievement deserves recognition, sometimes regardless of tribalism. A few of us who sit near the players’ tunnel always stay behind to applaud off the victors when we’ve lost to a visiting team. I also remember being in the (Highbury) Clock End and seeing Harry Kewell score for Leeds with a superb half-volley, a goal that put the title beyond our reach that season. And yet quite a few of us stood and applauded that goal.

    One thing that seems to have gone is clapping a visiting team’s keeper before the game: always used to happen in the 70s and the 80s but has completely disappeared now. Pity.

    And re our rivalry with our N17 chums, you’re absolutely on the button. The intensity of the rivalry always allowed some space for humour, a space that has disappeared now, with vicious abuse the order of the day. Bruce Forsyth isn’t the only one to have shared north London loyalties; as I’ve mentioned before, as a kid in Muswell Hill and Wood Green, I remember there being a fair few older guys who had season tickets for both clubs: one week they’d get the W3 bus going to WHL, the next week the same bus going the other way, to Finsbury Park. As a teenager, I often went to WHL as a neutral and enjoyed it (well, they were a lot better than us for a chunk of that time). Seeing Maradona play in a Spurs shirt in the Ossie Ardiles testimonial remains one of the earliest experiences of real quality football.

    So, while it’s a pipe dream, I agree, it’d be great to see more respect at football matches.

  27. TotalArsenal says:

    G5, I would love it if Arsene signed up TH14 for three months. It would make perfect sense as he can play in Chamakh’s and Gervinho’s positions. And boy would he give everything to Arsenal again :)

  28. 26may1989 says:

    In catching up with yesterday’s discussions, I saw Exile ask whether Milan had injury problems. They certainly do: One of their main centre backs, Yepes, is out till March with ligament damage, and I think Nesta is also injured, so CB is a problem area for them. And one of their strikers, Cassano, is out for the season with (I think) some sort of heart problem that required surgery. I think they may have a few other injuries in the squad. I don’t know whether it’s due to injury, but I think Flamini also has yet to play a a game this season.

  29. Carlito11 says:

    Morning all!
    Just popping in to register my excitement at drawing Milan in the UCL. Brilliant stuff! Should be a better atmosphere than the dull 0-0 last time (and the only time?) we drew them at home. If we want to do well in this competition these are the teams to beat.
    The rossoneri have always been the glamour team for me as the gullit/ van basten team were the best I’d ever seen at that impressionable age when judgements are made that stay with you for life!
    Cannot wait to be at the ground for this one!!! COYRRG!

  30. gunnern5 says:

    TA;

    The guy in the prison garb was a Spurs supporter which appalled the Judge. However the Judge, being of sound mind, decided that an exorcism was required. His sentence was to attend Arsenal games until the evils of Spurs were eradicated.

    Looks like it worked!!

  31. gunnern5 says:

    Vermaelen – The reasons for our resurgence

    By Chris Harris

    Thomas Vermaelen puts Arsenal’s resurgence down to two things: self-belief and an influx of experience.

    The centre back missed two months near the start of the season through injury but since his return the Gunners have won five out of six Premier League games with Vermaelen scoring three times.

    The Belgian’s influence is obvious but he believes the deadline-day signings of Per Mertesacker and Mikel Arteta, plus the confidence boost of some big wins, have propelled Arsenal up the table.

    “I think it [momentum] just happens,” he told Arsenal Player. “If you are winning games then you are in the mood, you are positive and your confidence just goes up. That’s what’s happened with this team.

    “Maybe because we had a bad start some of the self-belief wasn’t there as much for some players but when we started winning again it came back. That’s why we’re more confident on the pitch and we’ll get better results.

    “It’s hard to say which moment or which result but I think the new players have been really important for us. They’re doing a great job at the moment and they bring experience.

    “People like Mikel have played a lot of games in the Premier League and Per has played a lot in the Bundesliga and for his country. Both are really experienced and I’m really happy with them. That was good for the team I think, when they settled in well, and we’ve been getting better results.”

  32. gunnern5 says:

    TA, One never knows, I for one, would love to see him back.

    …………………………………………………………………………

    AW not ruling out Henry return

    Saturday 17th December 2011 11:56

    Arsene Wenger has not yet investigated the idea of re-signing Thierry Henry but says he is still good enough to play in the Premier League.

    Henry became Arsenal’s record goalscorer during an eight-year spell with the club before leaving in 2007 to join Barcelona and later New York Red Bulls.

    He is currently back training with the Gunners during the MLS close season, leading to reports that Wenger could look to tie up a short-term loan deal when the transfer window reopens.

    The Arsenal manager has previously insisted that he will not be signing Henry, but that stance now appears to have softened.

    While Wenger has not spoken to Henry or New York Red Bulls about a move, he is not ruling out the idea and is still an admirer of the 34-year-old’s abilities.

    Asked whether Henry could join on loan, Wenger said: “At the moment, Thierry Henry just practices with us. I haven’t even investigated that.

    “I cannot tell you even if there is a chance because I haven’t even made any approach, not to him nor his club.”

    But asked whether Henry is good enough to play again in the Premier League, Wenger replied: “Yes.”

    Arsenal will be left short of attacking options in the New Year when Gervinho and Marouane Chamakh link up with Ivory Coast and Morocco respectively for the African Cup of Nations.

    Robin van Persie has been in sparkling form all year and it is reported that Wenger will only attempt to bring in Henry as emergency cover if the Dutchman suffers an injury over the busy festive period.
    .

  33. gunnern5 says:

    – Mikel Arteta eyes an upset against Premier League leaders

    The former Everton midfielder believes the Gunners can beat Roberto Mancini’s men on Sunday, and claims striker Robin van Persie can do ‘absolutely anything’ on the pitch

    Dec 17, 2011 7:26:00 AM
    EXCLUSIVE
    By Francisco Delgado

    Mikel Arteta says Arsenal will be right “back in the race for the Premier League title” if they beat Manchester City on Sunday.

    The Spanish midfielder, who joined the Gunners in a deadline-day move in August, has called on his team-mates to beat the league leaders in their own stadium and reinforce their title credentials after a rocky start to the season.

    Arteta told Goal.com: “We’re improving with every game and on Sunday we have a very hard test away to Manchester City.

    “We can show it is possible to come back after losing those games at the beginning of the season. If we win on Sunday, nobody can doubt we are back in the race for the Premier League title.”

    Arsenal have recovered after suffering their worst start to the season to collect 22 points from their past 24 and are now fifth – nine points behind their opponents this weekend.

    Arteta said Arsenal’s 5-3 win at Stamford Bridge showed they are capable of beating the toughest opponents away from home.

    “We beat Chelsea at their place, so why not repeat the experience against City? That City lost at Stamford Bridge last week isn’t good or bad for us.

    “We must always approach games looking for the three points and that won’t change, even though they are first.

    “It’s true that City have a great team. They are better than last season. The new players are more adapted and they are more familiar with Mancini’s system.”

    The 29-year-old praised his fellow Spaniard, David Silva, whose form, goals and assists have been vital to Manchester City’s table-topping form, and said he was looking forward to a “duel” with the ex-Valencia man.

    “People speak sensationally about David Silva’s play for City, but for me it’s no surprise,” Arteta said. “I was convinced when he arrived that as soon as he adapted to English football, he would be a star. And the same thing will happen with [Juan] Mata at Chelsea.

    “It will be a good duel with Silva on Sunday. I think that’s good for Spanish football because many people will be looking out for this match.”

    Arteta also singled out Arsenal’s captain and prolific striker Robin van Persie for praise: “Whatever you say about Van Persie falls short.

    “From a distance I admired him before, but now I work with him every day I can confirm he is able to do absolutely anything on the pitch.

    “He’s a vital player for Arsenal at the moment.”

    The Basque said he hoped he could establish himself with the Arsenal fans on his own terms.

    “Every day I feel better. And the most important thing is to have the coach’s confidence in my work,” he said.

    “With Arsene Wenger I am learning many new things but I still think I can bring more to the team.

    “When I arrived everyone was asking me about Cesc Fabregas and they compared me to him. If at the end of the season nobody asks me about him it will be because I have done well, but each of us has his own style on the pitch.”

  34. TERRY MANCINI HAIR TRANSPLANT says:

    Dandan, love the article. Ime not realy into giving other clubs and fans stick. Does respect have to be earned?, probably, but as fans we do tend to go over the top sometimes.

    Redders, you know me to well, ime actualy banned from North Wales and there is an arrest warrant out on me in New Zealand, Baaaaaaaaaaah.

  35. Red Arse says:

    TerryM,

    You and Blackadder both!! Don’t let GLIC know he will be jealous of your infamy!! :-)

  36. fatgingergooner says:

    Great read Dandan,

    Unfortunately I feel that society has gone too far in the wrong direction to get back to the respectful days you speak of. What scares me even more is the amount of change since I was a young un, which is only 15 years ago. A large number of kids today have been brought up unruly and with an attitude that anything goes. Its scary to think of what the future holds in this country.

    When I first heard about Henry I have to say that I wasn’t keen on him coming back to the Gunners. He is a bit like Lennox Lewis or Joe Calzaghe, he left Arsenal at his peak and when there was very little left for him to achieve. I wouldn’t want him to come out of retirement for one last fight just in case he lost. However, the more I think about it the more I think it could suit all parties. Wenger would have himself a decent striker during the ACN to cover for Chamakh and Gervinho, plus, he would probably play for peanuts do the board are happy. The fans would love to see their idol back at the club, espescially the very young ones who might have only heard fairy tales about the great man.

  37. ozgunner says:

    oops forgot about her.

    @ G5

    cheers for the articles

    In terms of henry i say sign him up. It worked a treat when we brought in big sol. His experience on and off the field would be a great asset also. Just imagine what he could do for walcott, afobe and the other strikers. His presence would be IMMENSE! not to mention he could help RVP get a breather or two

    @ 26

    that was me that asked, cheers for the clarification.

    After asking i thought i’d look for myself and i only found the information on Yepes. I thought i saw the article on cassano the other day but couldn’t find it again. I was on rossoneriblog.com and a supporter said flamini and mexes have been hardly used due to a lack of faith by the manager. So that’s two quality players that hopefully won’t be involved.
    I’m definently not worried about them, their squad is experienced but will struggle with our pace.

  38. LB says:

    A very classy post as ever Dandan, please keep them coming, I enjoy them so much.

  39. evonne says:

    LB – that’s it?? You have mellowed lately :)

  40. Gooner In Exile says:

    DanDan a fine read thank you and I understand where you’re coming from.

    I went to a supermarket today as the wife is poorly with my man-flu. The amount of times I was cut across, ignored, stepped in to by older people was ridiculous. Politeness and manners are not there in society anymore, I often smile at the look on people’s faces as I hold doors open for them, or step aside. People have become selfish and do not think of consequences of their actions on others.

    As for football I like 26 miss the days of applauding the opposition keepers, it used to be funny watching keepers playing at Highbury thinking about not going to their goal, and the applause invited them in. I started to clap during the Bolton game and no one else joined in…very sad.

    As for songs and chants I’d they verge on the side of humourous there is no problem as you say its when it turns to spite that there is a problem.

    My favourite song from my youth:

    “Ryan Giggs is a spotty virgin” when the young Welshman was arriving on the stage. I sung it with gusto despite the fact I could’ve been singing about me.

    However I have never been one to finish the anti Spurs songs as I find the Y word offensive.

    Anyone think the media have exaggerated the effect of rivalries and that has led to the decline of respect.

  41. Herb'sArmy says:

    What a huge subject to breach Dandan, well done you.
    I was brought up during the Victorian ‘don’t spare the rod’ attitude, which of course was done away with around the early 1980’s.
    Back when I was a kid, unless it was tipping down with rain (and when we weren’t at school), every waking moment was spent playing football, whether it be annoying the neighbours with a kick-about in the street, or a 20 -a-side game on the rec after school that used to last til we couldn’t see the ball. Nowadays the parks are derelict because parents are too scared to let kids out of their sight. There has been a huge fundamental mind-shift, and those halycon days are gone.
    Was Mrs Thatcher to blame, with her emphasis on greed being good, encouraging a ruthless win at all-costs mentality? Subsequent Prime Ministers have either endorsed that stance, or have done nothing significant to halt the slide of moral decline. But when you have a world where money is the most prized possession, and 10% own 90% of the wealth, I’m amazed people appear so tolerant.
    Your post reminds me of the example set by the public during and after WW2. People had no money, had rationing forced on them and yet they were happy.
    It’s a shame, because human-beings have the intelligence and potential to be so much better.

  42. SharkeySure says:

    In a word DanDan…I miss reading your HPs and comments. More please…

    I agree with GiE and others, re the lack of common courtesy in nearly all walks of life. No one seems tio think about the impact of their behaviour on others.

    Recently I got on the bus behind a woman who was actually carrying her baby in her arms. Not one person offered her a seat. I remarked quite loudly that someone really needed to. The lady herself told me ‘don;t worry I’m fine’. I replied, ‘no its absolutely disgusting that everyone sits there pretending they can’t see you. They’re even sat in the seats marked as to be offered to those more in need’

    Finally someone got up.

    I didn’t bother to thank them, I just toddled off upstairs*

    * Google Image – ‘London Buses’ if that last bit has confused you ;-) .

  43. gunnern5 says:

    The lower class in Britain today are more oppressed, and therefore depressed, than they have been since the end of WW2.

    The gap between the haves and have nots grows by the day.

    Their traditional job’s have been exported to low cost market places.

    Their educational opportunities are limited due to their lack of
    finances, and without a viable education they have little or no chance to take advantage of the high tech jobs that are available.

    They are left with dead end low paying jobs that barely offer sustenance so they choose to use the welfare that is available instead.

    Those who leave and have left school without an advanced education are a part of a lost generation.

    I find it difficult to understand how they are expected to show respect to those that have helped to create the imbalance and those that think of the lower class in derogatory terms.

  44. Gooner In Exile says:

    Sharkey that is probably my common bugbear with public transport. I see elderly folk get totally ignored on crowded rush hour tubes. The attitude appears to be “you shouldn’t have got on in rush hour”.

    That said after the Dortmund game I got ignored by three london taxis (with lights on) after the bus had terminated early. When the fourth finally picked me up I asked if I was standing somewhere difficult to pick up, he said “No it’s your scarf, some cabbies won’t pick up football fans”.

  45. LB says:

    Evonne

    Do you remember that slogan that went with the old Jaws film?

    Just When You Thought It Was Safe To Back Into the Comments.

    Gottcha.

  46. 26may1989 says:

    10 minutes to go in Chelsea’s match at Wigan. Chelsea are winning, Sturridge having scored a lovely goal, but are finding it a challenge to deal with a not very good Wigan.

  47. 26may1989 says:

    Wigan equalise with three minutes left! Deserved too.

  48. evonne says:

    goal!!!!!!!!!!!!! Gomez!!!!!!!!!!!! Czech is finished :)

  49. dandan says:

    .Thank you all for the very kind comments, sorry I have not been around to join in, but it has been a very busy day, and the boss otherwise known as Mrs Dandan is, I am afraid, feeling the effects of this cold, damp weather in her bones and needs my attention more. You have however given me through your thoughts an idea for another post for next week

  50. evonne says:

    LB – :) I hope so, I like your alternative take on things, adds some spice to this blog. And it is good for you too, you will live to be 120 :)

  51. Gooner In Exile says:

    “They are left with dead end low paying jobs that barely offer sustenance so they choose to use the welfare that is available instead.”

    Some do, the ones that make welfare pay better than a job, others struggle I meet them everyday at various clients I go to.

    I have a friend who is dyslexic at a time when you were considered thick, he has a public speech impediment/fear yet he loved sport and went onto become a Gym instructor…then went back to college got qualifications, got a job with a company that delivers housing maintenance on armed forces bases and has been further supported by his employer and got more qualifications. There are people who make excuses and people who make best for themselves.

    But having said all that I don’t think Respect, Politeness or Consideration have anything to do with class.

  52. LB says:

    Very true, a nice person is a nice person regardless of background.

  53. dandan says:

    GIE. Well said sir, another aspect of todays world is the blame culture that has emerged, its amazing how often blame is apportioned not accepted, It aint my fault is the fall back position for so many.

  54. LB says:

    Has anyone noticed how Benitez has been turning up more regularly than usual on TV of late, what’s going on? Why is he raising his profile? Do you think he is sniffing around that Chav job? Maybe he thinks he is the only one who can get Torres back on track? Let’s face it you have got to be pretty useless to some how manage turn one of the best modern day strikers into, well, what can you say, one of the most ineffectual waste of spaces there is in the premier league right now.

  55. TotalArsenal says:

    Chelsea drop two points and deservedly so. They hardly created chances and looked generally lack-lustre. It’s a vindication of my, and others, believe that a Chelsea win against Citeh last week was indeed the best possible result for Arsenal. COYRRG!!

  56. gunnern5 says:

    GIE.

    It’s different opinions that make the world go round.

    You may be able to give a few positive examples but the reality is that the majority feel downtrodden and underwhelmed by their status and lack of opportunity.

    Having been there I know exactly how they feel – and that is the main reason that I chose to leave the place of my birth and move to a country where class status is invisible and opportunties are equal to all.

  57. dandan says:

    Watching A C Milan on ESPN look a good side.

  58. London Gunner says:

    Wigan!!! I do love them so right now. Our 4-0 there was already good but this result is making it even better. Now a win for us against the Oilers and a loss for the spuds would put us back in the top 4 :-). We could be back in the top 4 properly before Christmas :-)! Kudos to all who predicted such; hopefully it comes true.

  59. TotalArsenal says:

    I actually think it’s pretty amazing hundreds of people can shop in the same supermarket at the same time, having to complete their complicated Christmas shopping, and having to deal with all sorts of stress, and no incidents as such happen. Let’s just be careful and not talk our society into something that it is not. Do people really believe that things were better 20-30 years ago? Sorry, that is utter romantic rubbish.

  60. London Gunner says:

    Ah I forgot my manners. Very interesting post dandan.

  61. TotalArsenal says:

    London G, good point. Would you take a draw now from tomorrow’s game?

  62. London Gunner says:

    It saddens me deeply when I hear what counts as football ‘banter’ and ‘fun’ in our world today.Those sickening chants about Wenger, Munich etc and the hatred as you said is unpleasent for the supporters and the players undoubtedly and really should have no place in football.

  63. 26may1989 says:

    GN5

    As a socio-economic diagnosis of the state of equality in modern Britain (and the modern US and some other countries), I agree with much of what you say. But the specific points that dandan raised, of behaviour, refer to different issues. And as Exile put it, respect, politeness or consideration have nothing to do with class.

    The most active working class political agitator, looking to overturn the oppressive and unfair social and economic order, will usually be scrupulously polite and decent on a one-to-one level. My grandparents, from very deprived backgrounds, and traditional working class socialists, would be horrified if one of their kids were to behave without consideration or decency.

    As for Canada, well done to you for making the best of your opportunity there, but openness and opportunity isn’t everyone’s life experience. There may be fewer Canadians than Brits who have it tough, but Canada is still a long way short of being an equal society, either in terms of outcome or opportunity.

  64. MickyDidIt89 says:

    Evening all,
    Lovely dropped points by Chavs. We have two games to make the top four as my Crimbo present.
    Blame New Labour for everything and you won’t go far wrong. Self respect? What was that?
    I am so up for tomorrow.

  65. evonne says:

    Dandan – yes, Milan are good, but it was Sienna with the best chance to score! Defence is not their strongest point

  66. London Gunner says:

    TotalArsenal the very small fearful side of me says yes but the bigger part of me who wants to keep the winning habit says no. I’m also fairly certain we can beat them so my heart (and the table!) says we should go for the win.

  67. evonne says:

    where is Wigan Gunner? And Jamie?

  68. 26may1989 says:

    Milan look good in the top third but vulnerable at the back. On this performance, I’d fancy our midfielders to boss the game.

  69. MickyDidIt89 says:

    I do think our defence will be good enough for both City and Milan. If I have a concern, its the creative spark from midfield against well drilled defensive midfields.

  70. MickyDidIt89 says:

    Ooops, here comes the hypocrite. Tomorrow I’ll be a massive O’Neill fan.

  71. dandan says:

    Jack should be back by then 26 and there is certainly space for a good ball passer to play in. But one suspects Milan will also have their front line defence available, for our game. one wonder what Flaminin will do about marking Jackshould he be playing

  72. 26may1989 says:

    Completely agree Micky. To be honest, I’d be delighted with a draw tomorrow, and won’t get very upset if we go down to a hardworking defeat. But if we’re to get anything from the game, as much as our defensive unit, it will depend on Walcott, Gervinho and Ramsey besting Kompany et al with precious little support.

  73. fatgingergooner says:

    Don’t think this is Milans strongest side but with players like Taiwo and Mexes at the back we would destroy them. Seedorf is about 35 now, as is Van Bommel, and the likes of Pato, Boateng, Robinho and Ibrahimovic offer very little in defence. Our youthful and more athletic midfield (I include the wide players in that) should be able to dictate.

  74. 26may1989 says:

    OK, catch up later guys.

  75. MickyDidIt89 says:

    26,
    I know you’ve gone, but a draw would be a great result, and with a win at Villa on weds I’m sure I’d get my top four spot for a very Happy Christmas.
    Nite all.

  76. Herb'sArmy says:

    Education starts in the home. We are all born as blank canvasses for others to imprint their values on. I was taught never to swear/curse in front of children, or women, and always respect your elders, which has stuck with me to this day. But that was part of the cultural values of the time.
    I agree with GN5, so many people have been let down.
    Deborah Meaden flagged it up on Question Time, about how inappropiate and ineffectual our education system is in relation to the jobs that are actually available.

  77. MickyDidIt89 says:

    Just saw your comment Herb,
    Nail on the head stuff. What has happened to the education in this country over the last 15 years is terrifying.
    Education starts at home, but your children are understanably influenced by their peers and the structure of the system in which they are “educated”. I never cease to be shocked and appalled. Its child abuse.
    And there I was disappearing with happy Arsenal thoughts. Grrrr

  78. Herb'sArmy says:

    Hi Micky,
    thanks for the mention (last week I think).
    Nothing wrong with happy thoughts about The Arsenal, we all do that. It is our necessary escape valve.
    Re the education thing, those that can afford to give their children a proper decent education send them to Scotland.

  79. Hi all, good to get an view on an alternative subject there Dandan – one too complex for me to do justice to during a flying visit.

    Rapers/Peachy – I have the Man Shitty preview up in drafts, if you’d like to do a catchy title for, it it’s ready.

  80. TotalArsenal says:

    Hi LondonG, I like us to go for a win as well, and Arsene/Arsenal would not know how to play for a draw anyway. But a point would not be too bad, and as long as we don’t lose I’ll be happy. I have a feeling though will beat them tomorrow with a princely 1-0 to the Arsenal.

  81. Gooner In Exile says:

    Have just watched the film The Kid, based on Kevin Lewis’s best selling auto biography. A no holes barred film.

    But if that’s not a story of triumph over adversity then nothing is. Whether I can bring myself to read the book with undoubtedly worse to read is uncertain.

  82. fatgingergooner says:

    Herb,

    I have to 1 million percent agree with you.

    There are young men and women out there who have had terrible attitudes and ideas imprinted on them by uneducated and angry parents. As you so rightly say, we are all blank canvases to begin with and learn so much of our future behaivours and attitude from our parents. The problem now is that people are having children at much younger ages which means they are passing on not only uneducated views but also views that are inexperienced.

    I spoke to a Polish teacher a few years ago, only briefly, and I asked what he thought of our education system compared to his back home. His answer was that he couldn’t believe the lack of education in poorer areas, and the vast gap between the educated and the non educated. He said that in Poland the education was much more evenly spread throughout. Unfortunately I think this gap is only becoming wider.

  83. Rasp says:

    Thanks chary – I’ll get working on it……..

  84. London Gunner says:

    TA I actually agree with your comment. I think the Chelsea score and the resulting table reading got me more pumped up and excited for tomorrow. I would love a repeat of the scoreline against Chelsea… without the 3 conceded goals!

  85. Herb'sArmy says:

    Hi FGG,
    50% of everything we ever learn is learnt in our first 5 years, so it is essential for a natural healthy growth for an infant to be surrounded by intelligent, happy well-rounded folk, and a loving, supportive mother and father. Those are basic fundamental rights for every child, and yet it’s incredible how many children never experience it.

  86. gunnern5 says:

    26M – Re your 8:17pm.

    I agree with the essence of your post but I would take out three words from your last sentence. Canada is definitely short on equality but not “a long way” short.

    Respect is not a throw away word in Canada it’s a way of life, visitors are always surprised at the politeness of Canadians – especially our American visitors.

    I’ve been involved in and watched football for over six decades and violence, and disrespect for others, has always been a part of the game both off and on the field.
    I can’t begin to recount the number of times that fights (wars) broke out on either Drayton Park, Gillispe Road, Avenell Road, or the local pubs – even on the tubes. Here in Canada fights occur with rival parents at junior football matches.

    Those that remember differently must have selective memories. Frankly I cannot remember a time when I respected Spurs or their supporters, although there was a period of time when I even liked Man U.

  87. fatgingergooner says:

    Herb,

    You are totally correct. I never had that family unit that you speak of and it has made me realise just how important it will be when I have children of my own.

    It’s not only education that is important though. Whilst money can’t buy you happiness, within a family unit it can help avoid a lot of the stresses and arguments that young children have to grow up in these days.

  88. Herb'sArmy says:

    Having read your comments here on AA, FGG, I’m sure you’ll take to parenting like a duck to water, and do a great job.

  89. gunnern5 says:

    FGG,

    Formal education has always favoured the rich in Britain and it’s even more so in today’s society. Family life is where ones values are formed and that is regardless of social status.

    The thing that I found most upsetting about the British way of life was the insidious class distinction, in my way of thinking it’s as vile as either race or religious bias or distinction – but it’s so deep rooted that it will never change.

  90. Gooner In Exile says:

    An amazing stat from today’s 5:30pm KO from Twittersphere:

    Wigan had more attempts (14 to 11), more on target (6 to 2), more passes (412 to 396) and more possession (50.9% to 49.1%) than Chelsea.

  91. Raspers, I missed out an apostrophe in the 5th word – oops !

  92. fatgingergooner says:

    Cheers Herb, tbh I would just be happy to be able to have healthy children and take it from there!

    G5, the way I see it, education is what you make of it whereas parenting is what you are given. The problem is that the quality of teaching varies so much in this country that a child’s education can be a simple postcode lottery. I also think a parents attitude towards schooling impacts greatly on a child’s education. This is a cycle that is difficult to break.

  93. Rasp says:

    You’re such a perfectionist chary :P apostrophe in place!

  94. Cheers Raspers, just jumped out at me looking at it.

    Crikey, did MotD just show a Wigan supporter giving the middle finger salute ?

    Whatever next.

  95. Herb'sArmy says:

    Amen to that FGG.

  96. TotalArsenal says:

    GiE, hi. Those are amazing stats, but if you have watched the game you will not be so surprised. Chelsea played with Drogba and Lampard and they just lacked drive, tempo, energy etc. 1 – 1 was a fair result, and it tells you everything about Chelsea at the moment. All is not well there and long may it continue.

  97. Brigham says:

    Posted this in the ‘Who do you fancy thread’ but thought I would double up as it is meant for my fellow Peroni drinkers…

  98. TERRY MANCINI HAIR TRANSPLANT says:

    This is a very complex debate, but one thing i know for sure, after reading the comments of you good folks, there is hope for the human race yet.

    As for the game, we have a good chance. It could be the day we show we are not here to make up the numbers, we are here to Gun for the title. Personaly, i feel if we win tomorow we will be champions in May.

  99. TotalArsenal says:

    LondonG, the way I look at it, is that Arsenal are very unlikely to get 6 points from their two away games in a row: MC and AV. If we beat Citeh, we almost certainly will draw with Villa and if we draw with Citeh, we most probably will beat Villa. Obviously, I would love the six points and I am hopeful we can buck the trend, but I am just going with how Arsenal normally perform in these sort of back to back away fixtures. Lets start with beating Citeh tomorrow though! :)

  100. fatgingergooner says:

    Is Big Sam still at Blackburn cos that goal was straight out of ‘The Big Sam Playbook’!

    Do you think he shows his players the tactics using empty Peroni bottles!?

    Big Sam would make a great NFL coach. He would love to wear that riduclous headgear they have and pull plays from his scrapbook!!!!

  101. Gooner In Exile says:

    Paddy Power have us at 4/1 to win. There’s some value in those odds!

    We beat Chelsea and Wigan, Wigan drew with Chelsea, Chelsea beat City. We win 5-1…..happy days.

    Any reason why AvB left Luiz out of the whole squad, and Ramires for that matter?

  102. Gooner In Exile says:

    TA that’s defeatist talk, 12 points from the next four games nailed on :)

  103. TotalArsenal says:

    Terry: just one comment from you and the world is alright with me. We need your uber-optimism on AA like a double RVP hatrick at the Citeh of Oil stadium tomorrow.

  104. fatgingergooner says:

    GiE,

    Cos Luiz is Shite!!!!! Lol

    Not sure tbh. Ramires put a lot in against City and did he come off with a knock late on?

    I like him, he’s full of running and drives them forward. Him and Essien would be immense.

  105. TotalArsenal says:

    GiE, I know, it is. The good thing is Arsenal have had 8 days rest and are fully up for it. MC will be nervous enough to get beaten again, and I would not at all be surprised if they will be playing for the draw tomorrow. That would suit us just fine though :) 12 points out of 4 and TMHT will go dangerously ballistic :P (and wouldn’t we all!!!!)

  106. TERRY MANCINI HAIR TRANSPLANT says:

    GiE, ive got £50 on us to win the title at 50 to 1. I intend to use the winnings to fund my trip to Germany to watch us lift the champions league.

  107. TotalArsenal says:

    Ramires was indeed injured. Agree with FGG re his drive forward. Ever-so-slightly overweight Franky Lampard (am being respectful) has not much drive/confidence left in him at the moment!

  108. fatgingergooner says:

    TMHT,

    I assume you will be travelling business class and going all inclusive for 2 weeks on those odds!!!! Lol

    Or maybe an expensive detour via Amsterdam would be the way to go!!! Lol

  109. TERRY MANCINI HAIR TRANSPLANT says:

    TA, 12 out of 12, i think i would explode into a million pieces.

  110. fatgingergooner says:

    Merse and co were talking about how Lamps could choose any club in football to move to if he wanted but for me, if you play in a team where you get 5/10 shots a game and take all the pens you are gunna get your fair share of goals.

    Odds on United picking him up?

  111. TERRY MANCINI HAIR TRANSPLANT says:

    FGG, I swear people are like mind readers on here today hahahaha.

  112. ozgunner says:

    What happened to the BR match preview.

    thanks for the comments GiE and FGG, couldn’t agree more. The bus situation is something that annoys me, along with walking behind someone through a door and they don’t hold it for you (takes a second), and when you sneeze and no1 says ‘bless you’ (i’m far from religious but to me it’s common cortesy, and i like the small things like that).

    ‘Life is short but there is always time for courtesy’

    ‘The best portion of a good man’s life – his little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and love’

    ‘Kindness, like a boomerang, always returns’

  113. RockyLives says:

    dandan
    I’m joining a bit late in the day, but thanks for a fine read and an excellent debate starter.

    I quite enjoy some of the rude anti-Spud songs, particularly the one about visiting the Pope and the one about my Old Man… they seem (to me at least) to be classic examples of foul-mouthed terrace humour.

    If you’ve ever sat in an American pro sports game with the crowd responding only to prompts from the massive screens (“Dee – fense… dee – fense”) you can’t help but cherish the spontaneity of our football fans.

    But that said, I still applaud opposition players if they do something that makes me go “wow”. I haven’t sat behind the goal for a good few years – have we really stopped applauding the away ‘keeper? That’s so sad.

    I could say a lot about the wider debate about manners, class, opportunity, respect etc. In my lifetime I have veered from feeling that lack of opportunity was all about the evils of capitalism, to placing all the blame on the self-obsessed culture that was conjured into being by left-wing intellectuals in the 1960s. Now I’ve arrived at the view that the problem has many fathers, including both of the above.

    Whatever its causes, somewhere over the past few decades we have lost a common acceptance that good manners and respect for others are a given, regardless of your standing in society.

    I grew up in a working class family in a working class part of London. The men who were around in my childhood were hard men, but they would be appalled by the behaviour of so many people today.

    Anyway, this might start turning into the Four Yorkshiremen skeet so I’d better stop now…

  114. TotalArsenal says:

    If we can get 15 out of 15, it will be a billion pieces Terry!!

    Next five games:

    Arsenal:
    MC (a)
    AV (a)
    Wolves (h)
    QPR (h)
    Fulham (a)

    MC
    Arsenal (h)
    Stoke (h)
    West Brom (a)
    Sunderland (a)
    Liverpool (h)

    Chelsea
    Wigan (a)
    Spuds (a)
    Fulham (h)
    AV (h)
    Wolves (a)

    MU
    QPR (a)
    Fulham (a)
    Wigan (h)
    Blackburn (h)
    Newcastle (a)

    Spuds
    Sunderland (h)
    Chelsea (h)
    Norwich (a)
    Swansea (a)
    West Brom (h)

  115. ozgunner says:

    I agree with TMHT and GiE, come on TA, 6 from 6…easy, 12 from 12…no problemo…win the league…you betcha!

  116. TERRY MANCINI HAIR TRANSPLANT says:

    TA, if we win tomorrow ide better prepare myself for one hell of a bang.

  117. TERRY MANCINI HAIR TRANSPLANT says:

    Nice one Oz, we can spontaniously combust together, hahahaha

  118. ozgunner says:

    haha TMHT, don’t worry i’ve got it sorted:

    living room tarped and covered with plastic: check
    life insurance: check

    If RA’s theory holds, in another universe i’ll be alive to enjoy the celebrations (sure one will die from alcohol poisoning, but the third one will survive).

  119. TotalArsenal says:

    Oz, ok agreed it is easy :P Last year this time, Arsenal played some of its best football and it was: Chelsea win, Wigan draw, Birmingham win, MC draw. However, the past is a convenient, but nevertheless, flawed basis for predicting the future… so 6 out of 6 it is! :)

  120. TERRY MANCINI HAIR TRANSPLANT says:

    Oz, hahaha, ive got nothing sorted, they will scraping me off the walls, the only thing to survive will be the syrup. I realy hope Redders theory is correct.

  121. ozgunner says:

    @ TA

    that’s better! haha

    I just hope we won’t be flat after the tough game against city. Chelsea had blockbuster fatigue and got the run around from wigan.

    Walcott will cause alot of problems against zabaletta, just like the Ox did. Zabaletta to me always seems like a red card waiting to happen so hopefully he picks up a yellow early. It is a shame richards is back because gerv would have had alot of joy down that flank. We need to shut down silva and we will be fine. I expect a 1-2 victory from our boys.

  122. chas says:

    dandan, very interesting post.

    Is your last paragraph suggesting that the prawn sandwich brigade are too embarrassed to support the team because of the abuse hurled at the opposition players? If this was true, I would be astonished. The corporate customers wouldn’t know how to support the team if their lives depended on it. Free beer/food and getting home before the queues get too big is their only consideration.

    I’ve been re-reading Fever Pitch in the last few days and Hornby perfectly describes the negativity and discontentment that lived on the terraces both in the 70’s and 80’s and lives on in the present day. He even describes a game where he sits with corporate fans to whom winning or losing is pretty much immaterial. The different perspective this gives him still doesn’t affect they way he supports The Arsenal.

    As far as abuse goes, the worst song I’ve ever heard at Arsenal was in the 70’s and 80’s about gassing the jews. Apart from a few cretins, I really believe that most supporters these days are more intelligent and would never stoop to such hideously low levels.

    GIE,
    Clapping the opposition goalkeeper still happens away from home.

  123. zimzelen says:

    “The wonder of you” is still arsenal anthem?

  124. pat says:

    would 7am be too early to start drinking in celebration? I think thats about the time the game will be finishing – any one watching and blog surfing at the same time – this game is going to be epic. In fact this whole season is starting to look epic – the bad start, the turnaround, still being in the champs league, the 125 celebrations, the possibility of Henry coming back….I think he senses that this season could be something special and wants to be part of it…

    @ozgunner Sorry to catch u out about Elle – she made me do it :-)

  125. MickyDidIt89 says:

    Morning Pat,
    I think you are right with the word “epic”.
    Every time someone posts Spuds’ next five fixtures (Total last night) I am reminded what an horrific second half of season they are going to have. A draw to day would be massive given that we have so many of the big fixtures at home still to come.

  126. MickyDidIt89 says:

    Evonne,
    I urge you to reconsider your plans for today. Airports are nice places to be. They offer a roof over your head, warmth, security, to say nothing of an abundance of tasty snacking outlets.
    I know you love your Mum, but how awful would it be to kick off the festive season holding a grudge. Think of her. Sometimes touch love is called for.

  127. Gooner In Exile says:

    Touch love? With mother? Freud anyone? :D

    Chas I forgot the keeper clapping still happens away. Maybe if Red Action (which surely has most away supporters sitting in) were directly behind goal it would at least restart in the North Bank.

    Trying not to think about the game.

    I reckon the first line of today’s pre match should read:

    “if you are a Manchester City fan go and find your own blog we don’t care, unless you are Blue Valentine who is a credit to your club”.

    If any of you are on Twitter it’s worth following Plekester a City fan of the lowest order. He should be minus his manhood as he threatened to cut his privates off if they lost to Chavs.

  128. Gooner In Exile says:

    “I know you can win trophies in many countries and in many ways, but I want to do that in our way and in an Arsenal shirt.” – van Persie

  129. evonne says:

    Morning all

    Micky – just watching mancini in a blue santa hat, fucking imposters. I didn’t sleep all night, took the German for a walk at 2am. I tried every option, noting, fuck all I can do but sit and wait for the wrech. And sod the manners.

  130. pat says:

    Hey Micky – Spurs’ gas is going to run out pretty soon. Just found out that a local sports show presenter is a spud – misguided fool! They were showing the van Persie goal though last week and giving it the credit it deserves so they arent too bad – I just do not get tired of watching that goal – poetry in motion! Lets have another one like that today Mr VP!

  131. 26may1989 says:

    Very amusing start to the day: no irony, is there, in this appearing under call for respect “fuck all I can do but sit and wait for the wrech. And sod the manners.” Love it evonne. :)

    And I’m starting to worry about Micky’s parenting philosophy – touch love? Maybe you’ve been living in the west country too long…..

  132. evonne says:

    Herb and FGG – in Poland children don’t start school till they are 6, 7 in my time. Education there was fantastic, 6 days a week, 8am till 3pm and so much homework that you had no time to drink or take drugs. It was reported with shock that in this country children are examined 70 times during their time in schools. In Poland we were examined on 10-14 subjects every year, often with mid term exams and unannounced written check points. Yes, I received excellent education, but even now I wake up shaking because I had a nightmare about not being prepared for exams. Do you want happy or educated children? I chose former any day.

    Regarding manners – of course it is a class thing. Politeness isn’t. Take for example shaking hands – did you know that it is bad manners if a man offers his hand to a woman first? Or that if you are introducing people you first introduce the younger, or a man to the older or a woman – otherwise bad manners. Or holding cutlery in a certain way, who do you serve first? All bollox, sorry, I hate ‘good manners’, restrictive and false. And who says something is a good or a bad manner? The Frenchies from 16th century, they dictated the trend. I was brought up with all that shit coming out of my ears and I rebelled. I deliberately behave badly to piss them off. And go to football games instead of tennis.

    Oh yeah, that reminded me of something else. Before I came to UK I was ‘checked’ by a family friend if I was suitable to be introduced to her circles in London. A maid with a little apron opened the door and showed me to the library where I was interrogated by a charming old lady. I passed the exam but felt so sick that I never phoned any of her cronies here. Bad manners, my mother received a letter about it.
    Sod manners guys, make sure your kids are happy first and foremost, nothing else matters

  133. Gooner In Exile says:

    Evonne there is probably a difference between manners and etiquette. Etiquette definitely being the preserve of the Upper Classes (finishing schools and all that) and for me covers a lot of those intricacies you have listed and some would say outdated. Eg waiting for the ladies hand…not very equality correct is it. :)

    Manners for me is saying please and thank you. Or to put it simply not being on your mobile phone whilst you approach and interact with a checkout assistant…..that really peeves me.

    Thankfully I have some Muslim clients who corrected me for my bad manners as I always refused offers of food, one had a quiet word and told me it was an insult whereas I thought I was being polite in declining their gesture.

  134. evonne says:

    26may – I am furious!!!!!

  135. MickyDidIt89 says:

    26,
    You don’t need to worry about my children. I like to think I run a nice and tight little totalitarian mini state here at DidIt Towers. Assuming they pass first inspection at 6:30 am, they have ten minutes free time entirely to themselves. That’s the loony left liberal in me!

  136. evonne says:

    GiE – good job you don’t have mongol clients – you would have to burp loudly after accepting their food :)

    Can you explain to me why the English say sorry if you bump into them?

  137. evonne says:

    Gregory – I have noticed :)

  138. 26may1989 says:

    Micky, you are such a softie….

    Exile, once I married into an Indian family, I had to get used to food being forced into my mouth whenever visiting one of the many aunties, with no opportunity to refuse. It really is a “resistance is futile” scenario.

  139. 26may1989 says:

    Evonne, we’re programmed to apologise whenever possible. Sorry about that….

  140. evonne says:

    26may – pee off :)

  141. Morning all

    Raddy was called away to visit his poorly mother and chary jumped at the chance to write us todays pre-match ;)

    New Post ……………..

  142. chas says:

    Morning all,
    Is there any football on today?

    DidIt Towers. :)

  143. MickyDidIt89 says:

    From where I am in time right now, 4:00 pm seems like light years away. What the hell am I going to do, as nothing will take my mind off the game. I played a game of chess with my son earlier and noted that I adopted a 2-3-5 formation!

  144. MickyDidIt89 says:

    Ladies and Gentlemen, sorry, oi you lot.
    Put your pointy thing on the new Chas avatar/gravatar.

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