In the light of all the positivity following two excellent performances, 7 goals scored and none conceded, it would seem odd to publish this article submitted by Carlito 11, but I think it serves to show how quickly things can change in football. The piece was written after two pretty poor performances and our customary loss to chelski. We are on a high now and everyone is fired with optimism and expectation – but the concerns aired will inevitably be just below the surface waiting to be voiced again should we fail to land a trophy this season……
Written by Carlito 11
I used to be in love with all things new, but especially our team as it got ever more exciting and first signed, then developed ever more exciting players. But I am rapidly becoming a nostalgist when I think about the development of our beloved Arsenal.
A lot has been said on here of late about the lack of a tough mentality and strong defensive tactics at the back. Can it be true that the manager has forgotten what those winning teams consisted of?
I believe that this cannot be the case in such a thoughtful man, and that AW has been influenced by a desire to win the Champions league in getting ever faster, more skilful players with more flexibility and eschewing defensive shape and rigour for a free flowing “total-footballesque” way of playing. It’s all a bit like Chelski before Mourinho turned up, or (and this is my point) like an Arsenal who had never had George Graham as a manager.
We play brilliantly against the big boys and then get turned over by lower mid-table teams. We lack defensive co-ordination, and God knows, we can’t defend a one-nil lead! Now I’m not advocating a return to 442 long-ball football, but the gk, back four and central midfield need to return to the impenetrable shield that won us the League in 91 (just 18 against all season) or the Cup Winners Cup in ’94 (repelling wave after wave of attack in both the semi and the final). With that kind of solidity and attitude- the ability to suck up pressure and bring teams on to us- we have the players to counter-attack with precision, just as we have always had during the Wenger reign.
But it’s not only positioning and how the teams line up, it’s also attitude and mental strength. AW is rightly credited with revolutionising the game with his training regime, players’ diets and emphasis on sports psychology- but it seems that his emphasis on players’ mental strengths has actually produced a pretty fragile crop who can’t be subbed off when underperforming lest it damage their confidence. Where are the Ian Wrights or Paul Mersons of this team who would be so angry at being subbed off they’d play an absolute blinder in the next match to prove the manager wrong?
So, to my mind, when Wenger came in he liberated the attack whilst the defence (mainly) took care of itself. Now we need a manager to bring back the discipline in defence (we have the personnel except gk) and the attack can take care of itself. I never believed I’d write such a seditious blog so, in mitigation, I hope that manager can be Arsène!
Arsenal News 24/7
arsenalarsenal.net 
There he is 🙂 old choochie Graham & Donkey
Morning all
Thanks Carlito for the post – I agree with Rasp, although we’re all loved up at the moment we know we’re never far from melt-down – thats the beauty of being Gooner.
Listening to Cescs interview after the citeh game I’m fully convinced he has the mental strength to push us to silverware. ’15 against 11′ what a great comment 😉
gnarley – you’re definitely loved up 😆
Yes peaches, I loved my Choochie, Graham’s Red & White Army. But I’m loving the winning feeling of King Arsene II. I say the II coz maybe, just maybe it could be Wenger mark II, chamoneeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!
Morning all,
I’m afraid Carlito may be a bit of a sacrificial lamb on this one, but hopefully it will give others the chance to observe that we have the strongest team, strongest squad, best GK options and best chance of winning something since 2005.
…….& also peaches, I have a soft spot for anything Scottish, apart from Celtic (who are probably more paddy than sweaty sock)
Nicely written post. I agree with some of your comments – we are not as defensive as we once were and Wenger definitely looks more forward than back.
However… It makes me laugh when peple say we need to “return to the inpenetrable back line” like you can just go out and find a new Adams, Bould, Campbell, Dixon, Winterburn. It’s like when people say “we need a new Vieira”. OK – but where do you find one and how do you get them on our budget.
Your point about the psychological fragility of players is fair. It annoys the hell out of me that we can pay a man £100,000 a week and he gets upset and sulky if he has a bad game or gets hauled off; or that at one-nil we don’t have the mental strength to defend. But the flip side is that we have a footballing back line which is integral to our footballing mentality higher up the pitch. I hate it when Sagna gets caught trying to play it out of defence… but for every one time he gets caught, he has nine where he turns defence into attack – and that may just be a price we have to pay.
I think my point here – and I’ve rambled a bit – is that you have to make a decision to be a defensive blood and thunder team or an attacking flair team that leaks a few at the back. I’m not sure you can combine the two – at least not on our budget.
r&wv
Don’t forget O’Leary
Old Spider. Great player… tosser of a manager
Morning readandwhite,
You make some very good points. The budget underlies everything we’ve done since the building of the stadium and I think as we are now in control of the debt, Arsène has become more honest in admitting that he had serious constraints.
I think the style of footbal has changed since the GG days, and Arsenal/Arsène has a lot to do with that. We play european style football and are 5 years ahead of most premiership teams in that respect. Some will never have the quality or desire, but it is the direction and future of football in this country.
I agree Rasp. He played a classic tactic of denying everything until we were through the woods, and now he can fess up. Intersting to see the mancs’ handling of Rooney. I think if they had failed to pay him it would have sent out a very damaging message – that they can no longer compete witht he biggest payers/spenders. That would have dealt their ability to attract top players a big blow. I suspect they’re facing a problem that Wenger has just weathered.
A well thought out and nicely written Post Carlito.
I don’t think you are a sacrificial offering by writing on this subject. I think the points raised are very valid.
My own take on the Stroller years of management are somewhat schizophrenic, in that I loved him making us into a feared trophy winning club, but I generally disliked the style of football we played, even when winning.
One crucial comment I read in Tony Adams’ book, was that George schooled the back four (5), over and over again until they functioned as one unit.
Arsene on the other hand, when asked about “defence training” implied in so many words, that they were all professionals and could look after their own individual training needs. That comment was subsequently borne out by Martin Keown, in the not too distant past.
I love Wengerball, and would never want to return to the past style, but George had a point in his comprehensive “Defensive Unit” training.
Contrast and compare! 🙂
True redandwhite – welcome to the real world manure fans. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Rooney leave united before Cesc leaves Arsenal. The new contract and ridiculous wages have just secured the manks a high transfer fee, not the services of a player committed to them.
I suspect Arsène must have a wry smile on his face as he witnesses pretty much every other club running at a loss and their fans in revolt over their ‘lack of ambition’ in the transfer market.
Red Arse – In Perry Groves’ excellent book, he talks about the defensive training as well – how George used to get them to spend hours and hours ‘seeing the defender outside of inside’. As you say, football has changed. I don’t think you could do that today. Opposition players are too creative and too good at unlocking the door.
Fine post Carlito. Despite the current run your fears remain apposite
Did you know that since jan 2009 – almost 2 years, we have won 1-0 just thrice in over 80 games? Remarkable statistic and whilst it is a testament to our attacking prowess, it is also a damning indicator of our defensive frailties
Good Morning all, good post Carlito, though i may be still on my high from wednesday to comment on our defensive frailities and the like.
Rasp i love the widget on the comparrisson between this season and last, i know its been there a while and i check it after every game now, but i do want you to know it is valued and dont you dare remove it 🙂
Peaches cescs 15 – 11 comment was taken out of context by the media he was going crazy about it on his twitter account. He was trying to say that we would always try to beat manC even if they had 15 players to our 11. But the media just tried to twist his words to make look a big head.
Anyway i’m looking forwqard to tomorrow though it will be down to finding a decent stream, not ideal. 2 clean sheets in a row, who would have thought that, chezzer oozed confidence, cant wait to see more of him.
Morning tommy, have no fear the widget is there for the season.
As has been said recently, I want to see swagger, a touch of arrogance, a bit of ‘edge’ in our players. Too often in recent seasons we have majored on ‘belief’ in the team only to see confidence crumble at vital times. I have a feeling that our boys have become men and the competition for places in the squad is bringing out the best in the players.
Couldn’t afford players of the calibre of Adams/Bould/Winterburn/Dixon/O’Learey/Keown?? Anyone care to remind us where we found them or how much they cost exactly? Only Keown cost real money, and that was only because we let him go earlier in his career.
Building a great defensive unit CAN be done without buying ‘stars’, it just takes a lot of hard work, and anyone who says “yeah, but you couldn’t do that now” is talking out of their arse!
Andy. In that case I am talking out my arse and not for the first time.
There is a reason that no other back 5 in modern times has been as good as them – and it wasn’t just training. There was a magical understanding between them that is impossible to reproduce. Throwing money at it doesn’t solve the problem, though Chelsea last season are the nearest to those heroes.
A proper leader at CH, a big hitter alongside and two fine defending FB’s plus a great GK. Do you really believe they can be found on the cheap in these days of mass media? If so, you are talking out of your arse 😉
Read this on another site. Stats stack up for JD.
Centre Back Pairing Stats
Squillaci and Djourou – Pld- 4 W- 4 Conceded – 3 Clean Sheets – 1
Squillaci and Koscielny – Pld – 5 W- 2 Conceded – 7 Clean Sheets – 1
Koscielny and Djourou – Pld -2 W- 2 Conceded – 1 Clean Sheets – 1
Haha tommy,
Those figures are just proof of how misleading stats can be! JD’s doing OK and improving, but he’d be my 4th choice after TV, squidgy and kozzer.
Andy 1886 – I’m not saying our backline didn’t existor that they were expensive. What I’m saying is sometimes you make amazing discoveries and they grow to be incredible players. But you can’t just go out and do it over and over again. And when they finish, you can’t just replace them. All you can do on Wenger’s budget is keep buying young prospects and hope they fulfill their potential. If it was easy to get the new vieira, adams, keown etc, everyone would be after them wouldn’t they.
That’s my view – straight out of my arse
Rasp – he’s my 4th too, but
we all know wenger likes stats!!!
i wonder what hidink is doing at Colney today!?
It’s rant Friday
Capello …… Here is AW and a host of young managers (Coyle, Di Matteo, Holloway, Martinez etc) trying to bring the beautiful game back to the Premiership- England’s manager however brings Ryan Shawcross into his squad almost immediately after the witless thug broke Aaron’s leg, and then an ageing donkey called Kevin Davies into his squad fresh from almost decapitating Kos.
Capello should be trying to introduce the possession game into the England set up. But no – his plan is to take the England football team back to the stone age. What a plum, and what a bunch of fools for employing him after the debacle of the WC.
Rant over – now back to Arsenal
Tommy,
Hiddink was at Chelsea yesterday checking on a Turkish kid they have. (He is the Turkish Manager now).
He may be at Colney checking out Ozyakup who I think has dual nationality. Of course I could be talking out of …. no, no, I’m not letting Andy divert me to the nether regions! 🙂
Thanks Red, following Mat Law of the express who said he’d turned up, but believes he was their to see Arshavin.
Anyway the presser must be going ahead soon.
apparantly he’s at colney for ideas as new turkish boss
Probably a bit late to comment now but I thought I would add something anyway.
We do have a more vulnerable defence than the GG years, or at least have had for the past few seasons, but I think there are a few reasons for that.
Firstly, we play a style that is built around attacking and our ability to influence a game therefore we’re always going to be slightly more vulnerable than if you concentrate primarily on stopping the opponent. In my view, you can’t have both. You can get a reasonable balance but it’s hard to have a great defensive unit and a great attacking one. We obviously have to commit men forward to break defensive teams down which sees us more vulnerable at the back.
Secondly, I agree that it’s mentality that’s resulted in poor defensive results in the last few years. I think that’s beginning to show signs of improvement. Similarly, the CB partnership has been changing this season and has had 2 new players so we were always going to take time to settle. The last 2 games have seen 2 clean sheets so the signs are good. In particular I think Squillaci is settling and provides a steady hand and experience we lacked.
Good argument Carlito. The key question is, in order to have the fantastic attacking style we have developed under AW, do we have to sacrifice the defensive solidity we had under GG (and under AW’s early years with the GG defence)?
As has been said, the crucial thing about George’s defence was the organisation and coaching. Yes, Adams, Keown, Bould, Dixon, Winterburn were a great group of players, but it was their work as a well drilled unit that made them exceptional.
The strange thing is, Arsene managed to completely rebuild the defence a few years later while maintaining his attacking principles (the Invincibles defence of Cole, Campbell, Toure and Lauren). Who drilled that defence? Was it just that they all joined the team in a gradual transition with the GG defence and therefore inherited that way of playing?
Since then we have clearly struggled to keep it tight at the back. I like the look of Kozzer and Squidgy so far, but without proper organisation I fear we will continue to ship goals.
A price worth paying? I’m not sure, particularly if it means we fall short again in the trophy hunt this year.
Thanks all for the kind reception- had no idea I’d be posted today! When Peaches asked for a rant yesterday I was trying to think of a witty verbal destruction of the catering at the Emirates Stadium but couldn’t come up with one on time! So, a slightly inappropriate timing for the piece but enjoying your thoughts on it.
The main point that a few people have mentioned is the drilling of the back line and I have to say I would love to see a bit of that discipline even if we’ve just had 2 clean sheets and things are looking up. I agree that I’d rather see Wengerball anyday than the old attrition!
One thing those harping on about the good old days of gg defensive play is that with the change to the off side rule where not only is level on side but now someone off side can turn on side once another player touches the ball, and also the tackle from behind not allowed you can not play the gg way, why you think no one has hired him as manager or coach for such a long time now, add in we play high defence line as part of attacking team and this is working so far as team has better than three goals a game average this season. I know we all want a trophy or two but do you really think it is more achievable with a one nil to the arsenal style
I guess the other important point is that GG encouraged the whole team to defend as a team when we lost possession.
When our current team does that (as it has done in some recent games) we have looked pretty solid. They just need to keep doing it.
Hear hear RL!
Eduardo- hate to say it but I reckon that’s exactly what the specious one did at Chelski…
Smith14,
I cannot agree that we cannot have both a great attacking option and a great defence.
One of the obvious results of the GG training was that everyone knew where they should be, how they should react and when to do so, confident that the other defenders would be reacting in unison.
Compare that disciplined approach to the behaviour of Clichy and Eboue, who often look totally bemused or missing.
The next time you watch Arsenal (we have to give up on Eboue) keep an eye on Clichy. When he defends, he frequently stands just a couple of yards from the CB, in the centre of the pitch, leaving acres of room on the wing for the opposition to run the ball or take their time to swing crosses over.
Now look at say Evra. Just as attacking, but never replicating Clichy’s lack of nous.
He and the other defenders should be taught the “GG method” and, allied to our attacking football, we would have the best of both worlds.
Simples! 🙂
It has to be the training, or lack of it! Several years back, I believe the year of our CL run, we had some problems in defense but we brought in Martin Keown as a defensive coach and he sorted them out PDQ. The next year he was let go and I dont think we have had a top class defense since.
Seems to prove the point Neamman! 🙂
I wonder why Arsene, a man of great intelligence and a managerial genius to boot, can be so stubborn?
Baffles me.
As an aside, Stroller or GG is one of my favourite players in my Arsenal years. I saw his debut when he scored and while he could be frustrating, he just oozed class. Certainly one of the finest headers of the ball I have ever seen.
Great pic btw Peaches/ Rasp 🙂 Leaving early today for a few jars- see you on here tomorrow before the game!
I am joining the exodus too guys.
Laters.
If anyone who is going to the game tomorrow would like to do a match report then please let me know.
Carlito 11 if you’re still about I did email you about your post going up today, sorry if you didn’t see it 😦
An interesting article with a bit of romancing thrown in too. There is generally a tendency to remember only the good bits, from the past.
It has always been difficult to compare different eras but even more so between now and 20 years ago.
The GG team (& the earlier AW teams) evolved against generally weaker opposition than the current team faces. The stats are the GG team 86/87-90/91 conceded on average 0.84 goals per game & scored 1.61 gpg giving a goal difference of +0.77 gpg.
Over the last 5 seasons we have conceded 0.92 gpg, scored 1.87, a gd of + 0.95 gpg.
Another myth is the GG 1-0s. There is actually very little difference in the pro-rata 1-0s under GG & AW. I admit not so much recently but I think the defence will tighten as the team fully matures.
Don’t get me wrong I loved the GG teams. I will not accept that they were boring until after the Benfica defeat, when GG decided he had to change his method of playing.
It is great to reminisce & enjoy our memories but we can never know how GG’s team or the individuals, within it, would fare today.
All alone in China then?? I am having a too [few many] glasses of red wine here in my hotel!! cant wait to leave China for Thailand..
Hey I remember McCullock, and Magill!!!!!!
Anyone know when the CC draw is?
McCullough.. ok too much wine.. hahaha
CC draw is Saturday lunchtime, I think.
How do do you think those Irish full backs of the early ’60s would have coped with Wengerball, Neaman?
I agree with FM you cannot compare inter generational teams as football changes. But here is my best team from 1961 to now.. the years I was watching Arsenal, remember that I basically missed 15 years in Canada as I saw only results and no games. 4-4-2
Seaman
Dixon Adams McClintock Cole [ yeah hes a jerk but great]
Graham Cesc Storey Pires
Henry Bergkamp
of course i could say
Wilson
Rice Campbell Keown Samson
Ljundberg Parlour Brady Rix
Baker Wright
And I would still leave out many deserving players… .ike Super Mac. Jennings, George
Christ we are good!!!
hahahah not too well, but none of the players of that era would have.
I liked McCullough and Terry Neill.
terry terry break his leg a yard above the knee.
hahah
ok I finished watching my investments. I have said it here before but I mean it…. the world economy HAS to collapse. Buy hard assets, gold, silver, commdoities. People are living a fools dream if you believe the government. Protect yourself now while others are till believing things will go back to the way they were! They cannot!!
Hi Neamman,
That’s scary stuff! What commodities do you recommend?
Two great teams there Neamann.
I started watching us in 1970, so here’s mine:
Jennings
Anderson Adams O’Leary Sansom
Overmars Vieira Brady Pires
Bergkamp Henry
Wilson
McNab Adams Campbell Cole
PV Cesc Bergkamp
Overmars Wright Henry
I could have picked another 20 teams and still not been happy. No Raddy, no Stroller, no Nutty or Robert or Manu
Actually my REAL top team is:
Wright
Eboue Caesar Blockley Vivas
Morrow Hiller Carter
Helder Diawara Kiwomya
Hi everyone.
Rockylives
I have been playing lawn Bowls but on a carpet surface outside representing Malaga Province against Portugal this week(to answer your question of yesterday)
Lovely post but I am too tired to talk now.
Rocky,
How’s about a team of unsung heroes? …. Luzhny, Grimandi, Maninger etc
What have kelsey and Sir Francis Drake got in common?
Rasp: They’re both pirates?
😆 Rocky
Rasp, I like your Unsung Heroes 11 idea. How about:
Manninger
Luzhny Grimandi Whyte Silvinho
Groves Davis Platt Kelly
Quinn Woodcock
I know some of them weren’t ‘unsung’ in their day, but they seldom appear in reminiscences or ‘best all time 11s’.
But I still think they’d do very well…
Could we manage a red-headed 11?
Young, Groves, Freddie, Hartson… er…
…Ian Ure, Stepanovs, Alan Ball, Bob Wilson (or was he blonde?)…
I’m stuck now.
When all is said and done statistically (league games only) AW’s defense has been as good as GG’s and his offense has been superior. AW stats per game are GF 1.89 GA .904 GG’s stats are GF 1.49 GA .901.
AW’s winning points % is 67.4% and GG’s was 55.6%.
Give me AW any day.
If anybody is interested I have a spreadsheet showing the stats of all of our managers.
Great post today Carlito….
Very good contribution to the debate today RedandWhite
Tommy – re Cesc’s 11 v 15, You;re spot on, I aid as much the following morning, and asked how far the media would carry it
R&W “That’s my view – straight out of my arse” – Brilliant !!
Red A – “Of course I could be talking out of …. no, no, I’m not letting Andy divert me ” Lol
What an entertaining read that has been reading thru every post made yup until 8.43.
Many many thanks to all who contributed.
I’ll try and sort out two ‘all time’ teams once I’ve put the nippers to bed.
All time greats:
Jennings
Dixon, Adams Bould/Keown, Cole
Merse Paddy Le Bob
King Dennis, W-W-Wright, Thierry
Bench: Lehmann, Rice, Petit, Edu, Overmars, Reyes, SuperMac
Evening Sharkey – you could do a daily round-up of amusing snippets 😉
Hi there gunnern5 – long time no see, hope you’re well 🙂
Talking of Gingers – was my Philippe a ginger?
All time Unsungs (players not often lauded for their eforts or generally thought of as being a lot worse than they actually were):
Lukic
Lauren, Linighan, Cygan, ????
Parlour, Gilberto, Grimandi, Reyes*
Quinn, Wiltord
Subs: Manninger, Luzhny, Hillier, Jensen, Bendtner !, Wreh, Talbot.
I stick Reyes in there cos I often read comments suggesting that he flopped at Arsenal. His first 12mths at the club were almost a complete success, and his start to season 04-05 will live long in my memory !!
Jensen, Schwarz
I think Jensen and Schwarz were supposed be on my subs bench !!
“you could do a daily round-up of amusing snippets” I thought I just did !!!
Hi GN5. You must have loved watching these last two games round at your sons on his ‘TV wall’ or however big that telly was !!! Good to see yer back….
“Reyes was a prominent influence on Arsenal’s impressive start to the 2004–05 season, in which he managed to score in each of the first six games”
5 in a row, time to go !!!
I hated Lauren, one of the most brainless defenders we ever had. Othrt than that a pretty good under-rated 11. But maybe big Kevin Campbell instead of Quinn ?
Othrt ?? Brainless eh !
G5 are you a bit of a statto then ? Out of curiosity do you know the ratio of wins to Diaby being in the starting 11, hes not my favourite player by a long way and I dont like to victimise any of our squad but I always seem to feel more confident if he isn’t playing…didnt know if there was any truth in it or just my perception ?
Barum…lol, your comments really do support his inclusion in my unsungs !!!
Brainless..?? Naah, not for me….
I thought he was a very decent player, who really added a lot of steel and a touch of nastiness to our side. He was very good going in both directions on that right hand side.
Not as full flowing as Sagna, but he played in more defensive counter-attacking team, as per Carlito’s original post.
Full circle in a day….
GN5 _ I’m also interestd in your stats, maybe with highlights forming a headline post. Your first post about ‘boyhood memories’ was a real corker !!
Lauren:
Championship medals: 2
FA Cup Winner medals: 3
Barum…you’re joking, right?
Kelsey: my Dad used to be a big bowls player and I used to have a friend who played bowls for Scotland.
Am I right in assuming you play the flat variety, not the crown green one?
barumgooner: Sorry buddy I don’t have stats by player. All of the stats I have created are team related.
sharkeySure: Yep my son’s projection TV does cover an entire wall; clear as daylight and in high definition – I’ll post a picture.
On a quiet day I’ll put together a post on statistics. I am happy to share my data with anyone that is interested but they are in rather large Excel spreadsheets – far to big to post, but they can be attached to an email.
Good morning all,
well its morning in China! All ready for WHU tonight [my time]!
Rasp, buy silver IMHO, more leveraged upside than Gold.
In other words its asier for Silver to move from $24 to $50, than for Gold to move from $1350 to $2700.
Some great teams there and how could I leave PV4 out of my two teams????
No one else seems to appreciate Storey as I do, from all accounts his peers rated him highly as a player and of course.. everyone feared him.
Morning all.
No one mentioned George Eastham, the first man I believe to alter the wage structure.A great skillful player who ran our midfield in a pretty poor squad.
By the way Rocky and GunnerN5 I think you live in the same area.
Good news today: Jack to sign a new 5 year deal and Chesney is not going on loan to Celtic which looks like finally we have our 2 keepers in him and fab and Almunia will probably leave even in january.
Morning all. Thanks G5. I guess i’m on my own with the Lauren thing, some players you just dont take to and he was always one of those for me.
George Eastham, great player and there are so many across the years. Kelsey (the GK!), Joe BAker, Rice, McLintock, the whole 70/71 Double squad and of course the entire Invincibles team.
Who of the current side will be in that pantheon of greats? Cesc for sure and I have no doubt we will see a few of the current squad become Arsenal Legends.
Excel spreadsheets are like a busmans holiday for me GN5, so yeah I’m still interested.
Neamannm, yeah I saw some teams with no Paddy and thought …huh..?? Storey’s not in mine cos I’m (only?)43, but the book I’m reading now (Arsenal – Rebels for a cause) talks about him as though he was the PV4 prototype.
Just read about Wilf Copping. Sounds a complete monster. Anyone sticking hm in there side..?? Anyone who claims to have seen him play, wins a £25 donation from me, to a charity of their choice !
Kelsey saw Wilf Copping at the start of his career. Told me he was a beast of a player
New post…….
[…] It’s like George Graham Never Existed […]
Hey! Do you know if they make any plugins to protect against hackers?
I’m kinda paranoid about losing everything I’ve worked hard on.
Any tips?