One Gooner’s Hatred is Another Gooner’s Passion

 

Calling supporters ‘Arsenal Haters’ because they dare to question is simply absurd.

The puritanical denunciation of any view expressed that does not first acknowledge Arsène Wenger’s achievements before daring to question any aspect of his tenure is a form of censure that has long made me feel uncomfortable. As an admirer of Arsène, I find it doubly unsettling when my natural instinct to allow freedom of speech impels me to come to the defence of a blogger who is expressing a view that does not necessarily reflect my own simply because he is being vilified.

Certainly the centre ground only exists because of the extremes on either side, but I naively expect that the good guys (Arsène supporters) who generally inhabit the intellectual high ground should have the self confidence and humility to allow others to express their view without being labelled as bad supporters.

The way some Arsène supporters unerringly defend his every action has the feel of cult brainwashing …. believe, because belief alone is all that is necessary. It’s the footballing equivalent of the ‘Stepford Wives’.

This has led me to ask myself, who is the more passionate supporter? ….the one who really hurts when we lose and lets his emotions overtake his reasoning or the one who one who shrinks back behind the Arsène force field that repels all criticism? The answer is in the question.

All human advancement has been driven by those who challenge accepted beliefs, otherwise we’d still accept that the earth was flat and we’d have no understanding of gravity.

Will the Arsène supporters still support Arsenal when there is no Arsène? Those who dare to question his decisions or implore more passion and work-rate from the players are derided for not swallowing the ‘belief’. It’s as if the desire of these supporters is somewhat dimished by their wish for the team to improve.

While there is an awareness and an acceptance that Arsène has been performing  miracles for the past 5 years on a limited budget it would have been ‘good’ to have known how much the financial restraints were going to have an influence on the football. This is a valid point to question.

My argument is very simple. It is possible to question and support. Actually, it’s healthy to question and those who do so are not necessarily being disloyal. The majority of the time, they will be incorrect and responding from anger and possibly ignorance, but they have a right to express their views and those of us who disagree should always take the time to consider their view because once in a while, they may just have a point.

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240 Responses to One Gooner’s Hatred is Another Gooner’s Passion

  1. Rasputin says:

    Morning all,

    Today’s post was inspired by comments on here last night. My apologies as it has been hurriedly thrown together, but expresses a concern that I have wanted to get off my chest for a while as I am worried that we may be straying from our declared aim to welcome all views. Unfortunately I won’t be around much this morning to read all the fall-out … have fun ;)

  2. chippy says:

    Rasputin,
    Hope you dont mind ive copied my comments from this morning on the old post as i think it fits in well with your post,

    #

    The Writer of that Article should write for Arsenal.com some good points hidden amongst the Wenger love in, Next he will be telling us this season was an improvement on the last when it plainly hasnt been,

    So everyone should be happy that the Club we love treat us like Mushrooms by keeping us in the dark and feeding us shit??

    How for the past two seasons just before season ticket renewal time theyve promised World Class (Wengers Words) Signings only for people to renew and the players to not come in and how we are told every season returning players will be like new signings ,How this team have mental strentgh when in fact they posses non, How hes identified the weaknesses then to plug them with an Ex Manc whos legs have gone, etc etc

    People in my view are well within there rights to ask where this club is going as at this present time its stagnated not going fowards and not going backwards which would have been all well and good at Highbury but we were told we had to move to compete with the Madrids etc of this world and yet we still act like small fry just look at PHW comments regarding Cesc to back up that point,

    The board ask for patience yet sell there shares and make millions whilst the fans pay through the nose being sold tomorrows, Somethings wrong somewhere. And i think thats where the Anger is coming from,If your happy with that fair play to you but not everyone is, Theyve taken our Badge, Ground and Arsenal spirit whilst making themselves mega rich,

    # chippy Says:
    April 27, 2010 at 9:13 am

    Shit realised i didnt even add the part of us now only competing in 2 competions so the Arsenal are now bigger than the FA CUP and its been deemed worthless by the manager and board, Well tell that to the Fans that saw Sunderland score against the Mancs or Charlie G winning us the double, And yet the tickets are still full price strange that !!

    # London Says:
    April 27, 2010 at 9:28 am

    Good read Chippy, a lot of passion in there.

    Try this trick it works for me: ignore everything Wenger says about signings; anything that is said is aimed at potential new players and their agents. Contrary to what you might think he does not have an obligation to tell us exactly who he is going to sign which makes sense because if he did the price would instantly go up. So with that in mind you might see that we are not being treated like mushrooms; in fact, Wenger is working as well as he possibly can within his means and since the arrival of Abramovich and City’s financial might those means have been limited

  3. chippy says:

    London,

    Thanks must have woke up on the wrong side of bed this morning :-)

    I can understand his position with regards players fees etc but my angers more directed at the board and the lack of guts theyve shown in

    1) Supporting him if we have no funds and

    2) The amount of contradictions that come out of the club

    The spin etc does my head in they must think the fanbase have the brainpower of a goldfish :-)

    Your right tho this year im staying well away from any transfer gossip or going on Arsenal.com as it only gets me angry lol

  4. charybdis1966 says:

    Hi Raspers, as I was saying to you on the way to the Grove won Saturday, whatever someone’s criticisms of Wenger they should be able to articulate them without resorting to personal insults – either directed at Wenger or anyone who holds an opposing view.
    To say “Wenger is a s**t” or “You’re not a proper supporter”(if you criticise Wenger) are different sides of the same anti-debate coin.
    Maybe it’s an age thing, but I have to confess that in my younger blogging/internet forum days I was guilty of the above, but I’m now old enough to know better.

  5. Rasputin says:

    Morning chary, I couldn’t agree more. One responsibiltiy that comes with age should be to help those who are still ‘learning’ :lol:

    I was disappointed to read that one of the most respected writers on matters Arsenal had branded some supporters as ‘haters’ and so felt compelled to offer a defence.

  6. charybdis1966 says:

    True Raspers, and also just because other supporters wish to express their support differently it doesn’t invalidate their support, although of course the personal abuse doesn’t realise forward their argument.
    Football, and any form of sport or art come to it, is subjective so any one opinion is as valid as the next and while I have set views on,say, 40% of things Arsenal I am undecided on the rest and a persuasive argument can influence my perception.
    Simply saying “Wenger is a senile, French whatever” doesn’t do it for me.

  7. London says:

    Great Post Rasp

    I think that is your best ever. My understanding of the raison d’etre of this site is to allow a balanced view.

    I fully believe that it will fail if one side wins out right which has happened on the two most popular sites out there: on one you cannot question the club while on the other you are ridiculed for supporting Arsenal.

    This site Arsenal Arsenal can create a middle ground so long as we do not insult each other.

  8. Rasputin says:

    Again I agree 100% chary, that view has been expressed and agreed on here many many times … it’s in our ‘rules’ that insults are not acceptable. I didn’t think I needed to state those points …. I am just saying that if we are not careful, we will be guilty of a similar level of intolerance albeit without the insults.

  9. London says:

    But I know what side I am on :cool:

  10. Rasputin says:

    Morning London, thanks ;)

  11. charybdis1966 says:

    Where were you sitting on Saturday Raspers ? Did you see anything the TV cameras didn’t pick up ?

  12. Morning all

    Oooooh chary to what are you refering? We were up above the corner flag to Arsenes right, the one where the players run to when warming up.

  13. Rasputin says:

    I was upstairs, opposite the away supporters chary … Ade was warming up towards us when he ran to the corner flag. Can’t say I saw too much unusual going on, I didn’t really see what led to the Song/Bellamy fracas, but it did look like a bit of a one sided contest and it takes a lot to upset Song.

  14. charybdis1966 says:

    Pechey/Raspers, you were at the opposite end to me, I just assumed you’d have got a more immediate view of the response to Adeymywhore warming up. I was at the North end, lower tir where we were standing for the whole game. I’m always interested in off-the-ball stuff that you don’t see get reported.
    I know after the final whistle Adeymywhore tried to shake the hands of our players, he got Sagna and Eboue, but when he appeared to be moving towards Robin, the boy wonder arced his run to avoid him and went off to the Red Action section.

  15. I noticed that Ade and Toure captured Song and Eboue in the centre circle which I thought was interesting as both Song and Eboue had come out and said they were disgusted by Ade’s behaviour when we played Citeh earlier.

    There was a bit of high jinx while Ade was warming up at the same as Eboue, Vela and Nik – all playground stuff really – at one point Eboue pushed Vela into the on-running Ade.

  16. charybdis1966 says:

    I see Peachy – do you think the crowd reaction to Ade was quite muted in that area(the family enclosure bit)? I know where I sat we were giving it to the togo twat with both barrels.

  17. There have been far to many dishonest remarks over the past 2 seasons for me to ‘Trust Arsène’ any more.

    London will find an explanantion, which is quite funny as anyone who knows me will know that I almost make a living out of making excuses for peoples behaviour.

    He is able to carry on being dishonest as there is this whole ‘In Arsène We Trust’ camp.

    Arsène receives a £2m bonus for getting us into the Champions Lge. If you got a £2m bonus on top of your £6m salary for doing that would you worry about much else?

  18. chary – it was pretty vitriolic around us – quite shocking really :cool: but you’re probably right, underneath us is the family section and we couldn’t see what they were doing.

  19. London says:

    Yes I will, if you no longer trust Wenger how and why do you still want him at the club? If you do not trust him logic dictates that you want him to leave and it is at this point we part………

  20. I’ve trusted him to build a team to challenge for honours. He hasn’t been honest about why this hasn’t been possible. It doesn’t mean he shouldn’t be given the chance to fulfill his promises.

    I don’t want him to leave – I think he should go in the time tunnel with Sol and come back 10 years younger ;)

  21. I want the old Arsène back not this old Arsène.

  22. If this team with some additions comes good for the next 5-8 years then Arsène will not be around to be a major part of it and for that I feel sorry for him.

  23. Instead of paying young players that aren’t that good an exhorbitant salary to play badly week after week some of that money could have been used to pay a better player.

  24. I know there’s the argument that the younger players will be sold to add to the new player fund but in years to come I’m sure the lack of silverware in these past seasons will be laughed at when the riches flow in years to come.

    I think its a shame that instead of moaning for 3-4 years we should have been able to enjoy it more. The football’s not even been that fantastic for the past 2 years.

  25. That was my last cattle-prod as the flock seem to have wandered off to graze on yonder hills :lol:

  26. London says:

    “He hasn’t been honest about why this hasn’t been possible.”

    Perhaps that little thing they called the recession. He is an employee and therefore is loyal to his employers, would you prefer a Benitez?

    Are you saying those things becasue you believe them or are you just trying to promote the blog?

  27. LONDON – what a thought!!!!!!!!!!! No I believe them of course otherwise why would I say them.

  28. chippy says:

    London,
    Id pretty much guess he could say as he likes as im pretty sure hes more than just an employee the Board eat out of his hand and even the man thats meant to be above him needed Arsenes approval before settling into his role.

    Remember the Q+a last year when someone had the nerve to even question the signing of Silvestre PHW was spitting feathers and now it seems this years has been put back till August im pretty sure that will be Arsenes work,

    The Board love him as he brings in the cash whilst maintaing a Champions League spot which for them is all that now seems to matter,

  29. andy says:

    I’m not one of those who blindly follow AWs every word but I think he has done a good job, I think every1 would have to admit that most of the good work was done on back of the inherited defence and probably his best achievement was just prolonging those careers. If he has lied about finances it could be seen as admirable to not be bleating on about his hard luck story and just doing the best with what he’s got, the last thing any team wants is a manager whining on about how crap his players are and how he wants better… ask Hull.

  30. Rasputin says:

    Hi andy,

    I am of the opinion that AW has been a ‘fall guy’ for the Board over recent years and his loyalty/integrity has prevented him from giving his side when members of the Board have given the impression that he has had money available when the reality is that they’d rather he didn’t spend it.

    I am also of the opinion that he’s not great at tactics sometimes and would benefit from having an assistant manager who’s opinion he would listen to … oh, and he’s the best manager we’ve ever had :P

  31. London says:

    The cattle prod works both ways you know.

    But I noticed you dodged the question. You criticise people who adhere to the saying “In Arsène we trust” but when I put it to you that if you don’t trust him then logic dictates you want him sacked you gave a weak answer of I want the old Arsène back which must mean that you don’t want this one, that being the case why don’t you have the courage of your convictions and say you want him sacked in the same way that we have the courage of our convictions to say: IN ARSENE WE TRUST.

  32. London says:

    Chippy

    Don’t get confused he is just an employee albeit a very respected one by the board but still an employee which means he has to work within the budget that is dictated to him by the board.

  33. Rocky Lives says:

    So the debate rumbles on…
    Rasp, it’s hard to take exception with anything in your post, apart from this line:
    “The way some Arsène supporters unerringly defend his every action has the feel of cult brainwashing …. believe, because belief alone is all that is necessary. It’s the footballing equivalent of the ‘Stepford Wives’.”
    That, to me, feels just as much of an insult (albeit a more literary insult) as describing the critics as “Arsenal Haters” or “Not Real Supporters”.
    Still having faith in Arsene does not make one brainwashed. Pretty much every Arsene-supporting fan I know feels he has many shortcomings and makes many mistakes. But, on balance, they think he has done a good job in the circumstances – possibly a better job than anyone else could have done with the available resources.
    In fact, apart from the real loons and losers out there in blogland, most of us are probably not zealots. If, on balance, you’re pro-Wenger, that may mean you’d give him a 70% approval rating (not 100%). If you’re anti-Wenger, you’ll probably give him a 30% approval rating (not zero).
    We’re all conflicted but we’re probably closer in the middle than we think we are.

  34. Rocky Lives says:

    Peaches, do you really, really think that Arsene Wenger, who has gazillions of pounds already and lives a quiet, modest, ascetic lifestyle, is motivated by the extra £2m he’ll make for Champs League qualification? Come on.
    I have no doubt he would happily waive all his bonuses (and probably his salary too) for some decent silverware.

  35. London – I hope that Arsène will spend some money during the summer to strengthen the team, bring re-inforcements to the positions that have looked weak this season.

    I hope he will but I don’t trust him to as he has said he’s going to before and it hasn’t happened.

  36. andy says:

    Morning Rasp

    True about the tactics, I know people knock GG for the boring boring Arsenal stuff but he was a better tactical manager if not quite so good at man management. He would alter styles for different teams putting man-markers on players etc where as AW has made us a bit predictable. It’d be good to see Steve Bould make the step-up to assist

  37. Rasputin says:

    RL,

    My apologies if you interpretted my words as an insult.

    Firstly they weren’t written with you in mind and secondly I meant no offence.

  38. Rocky Lives says:

    Rasp, don’t worry – absolutely not insulted. I love you’re stuff. I was just making the point that it’s easy for both camps to think of each other as holding extremist views, and the reference to cults and brainwashing seemed to me to be an example of that.

  39. Rasputin says:

    RL,

    The post was intended as a ‘balance’ to another article and should not be interpretted as an attack on Arsène supporters … I am one myself ;)

    You guys (and gals) all enjoy blogging when there is a debate involving contrary views, it becomes very antiseptic when everyone agrees. The best days on here are generated when new bloggers come on and want to take issue with something we’ve written. I just want to avoid the ‘pack mentality’ that could scare them away.

  40. Rasputin says:

    The ‘cult mentality’ and ‘Stepford Wives’ observations were aimed at other sites (which our own rules prevent me from identifying).

  41. Rocky Lives says:

    Fair dos.

  42. peaches – STOP reading myles palmer… he is a complete bullshitting liar, who has done himself gambling and is now having to resort to gutter pressing tactics for hits on his HEAVILY advert laden website.

    i assume that is where you picked up this rubbish notion of the 2M bonus.

  43. rasp – nice post, i agree there needs to be a middle ground, i am one of the most vehement AW supporters on the internet, as you well know, but i am not above crtisicing his decisions.

    i have said time and time again, no man every born, or ever to be born, will be perfect.

    mistakes are part of human nature, but it does amaze me how wildly certain sections of the arsenal support attack the boss for his mistakes, whereas fans of other bigger club back their men for far bigger cock ups.

    we breed a very fickle type of fan in the 21st century.

  44. Rasputin says:

    Hi SH,

    Agreed ;) and we all know that views become more polarised and extreme when there is not much football about. You know the article that ‘disappointed me’, he is a great writer and committed fan, I just thought that the ‘drum banging’ was uncharacteristically bullish.

  45. Morning SH – I never read Myles Palmer

  46. andy says:

    It is i think a down side of being successful that you are never quite good enough for some. AW has done a gd job but in doing so has raised expectation. Now consistently 3rd is not where we want to be, but for any1 to believe that AW is happy with that is just daft. The thing that bothers me more than anything about AW is the way he has just discounted the FA cup as though its not important. I know chelsea have the money and the squad but are we so far behind that we cant even find a serious team for the greatest club cup competitions in the world.

  47. peaches – where did you get this 2M bonus rubbish from? trust me it is crap.

  48. chavs blagged this years cup so much, how many away draws did they get?

    if we got 4 out of 5 home draws along the way, i am sure we could make the semis at least every year with our 2nd/3rd team.

  49. rasp – maybe TA’s post was a little ott, but your post is definitely leaning heavily the other way, i know its certainly not your intention to be far left or far right ( go to get the party politics in ) but it could be construed that way.

  50. andy says:

    True sfh but i’d still like to see us try a bit harder. We keep putting all our eggs in the champions league basket and ending up with nothing.

  51. andy – i agree, would have loved another cup run last last season, its always nice having a big wembley date in the calendar, our dreams may be answered next season with more money to spend this summer and next jan, we may finally have a bigger enough squad to fight for all 4 trophies.

  52. Rasputin says:

    SH,

    I am a great admirer of TA and read his articles all the time. I have obviously failed because the purpose of my article was to try to promote the ‘middle ground’ rather than to demonstrate any leaning.

  53. andy says:

    I like your optimism sfh. Lets hope so.

  54. rasp – i don’t think you failed, but as pointed out earlier by london and co, certain part of your post were insinuating cult like status for AW followers, so you were kind of prodding that end of the spectrum.

    with true middle ground you prod nobody, it’s a sit on the fence job… which would bore me senseless.

  55. Rasputin says:

    :lol: SH, I’m struggling to qualify my points without breaking the rules, suffice to say, the ‘cult’ reference was not aimed at TA, you or anybody on here.

    I couldn’t write a piece without a few lines to spice it up – could I? :?

  56. I get the feeling I’m being patted on the head.

    My love and respect for Arsene Wenger as our manager runs very deep but I find it very hard to accept that those that criticise him for his faults can be labelled ‘Arsenal Haters’.

    We have no power but I’m uncomfortable with accepting certain failings with a shrug of the shoulders.

  57. rasp, chuck the rules in the bin and let all hell break loose… i want to see peaches write an expletive filled post :lol:

  58. Rasputin says:

    Don’t worry about peaches – she can mix it with the best of you :P

  59. peaches – if you can truly understand the financial constraints over the past few years, and as rasp suggests “the board have made AW the fall guy” then you should be able to now see the light at the end of the tunnel.

    since project emms began, i dampened my expectations on the trophy front, it was obvious we would struggle against big bucks chavski and manure.. but to remain in the top3/4 in all that time by spending so much less than spuds, pool, villa, city aswell!!!!

    remarkable, the man needs lauding… not questioning!!

  60. andy says:

    IF the constraints truly have been lifted this season then this is the one on which we can all judge him. To have remained in Europe with the financial difficulties is one thing to stay static now would be a failure.

  61. I’m going to get myself into trouble again here but that article says that we now have a wage bill of £120m because any money that was available has gone into new player contracts. WHY????????????????????????

    This doesn’t make any sense to me……………..

  62. so was it better to let 17 young players come out of contract and be tapped up for nothing like flamini was?

    potentially losing 10’s of millions in transfer fees?

    seems highley logical to me.

  63. Rasputin says:

    Well said andy

    SH, definitely ‘ the man needs lauding’ but it’s OK to question isn’t it?

  64. peaches – this 2M figures… where? maybe i can prevent you from reading more bullshit that twists a backstabbing knife in wenger’s back and causes fans to get the wrong opinion.

  65. rasp – think i have stated it’s fine to, but in a repsectful, logical fashion.

    i find peaches 2M rant wrong, its made up internet crap that then gets peddled as fact.

  66. There were a few players that we obviously wanted to tie down with new deals – Cesc, van Persie, Clichy, Ramsey, Wilshire but many others have been getting rich when we could have had a new Goalkeeper for example.

  67. agreed andy, 100% agreed.

  68. Don’t bring Flamini into it – thats below the belt because Flamimi wasn’t even offered a new deal until it was too late :lol:

  69. peaches – so are you suggesting it would have been prudent to spend the extra 10-15M on new players.. and let those players go on free transfers?

    and then wait for the moaning gooners to kick up a fuss over losing players like flamini for peanuts

    and remember, the same goons shouted flamini as being useless at 21 and world class at 23.

    pfffft, i despair!!!

  70. A friend told me about the £2m bonus whats makes you think its not true?

  71. chippy says:

    Because Arsenal now reward failure Peaches :-)

    SFH,
    Wenger is pretty guilty himself of leading Fans down the garden path in recent sesons with his exclamations of we will sign world class players, i know what we need, Theres only 10 players i cannot afford etc etc, Hes not all sweetness and light when it comes to pulling the wool over peoples eyes,

  72. But these new deals were extensions of contracts not end of contract deals. Who would have gone on free if they hadn’t recieved a new deal? I only remember being worried about van Persie.

  73. chippy says:

    So this year we lose Gallas,Merida, And Sendoros to free transfers that worked well then lol,

  74. peaches – because the accounts DON’T account for it!!

    and as mentioned earlier, do we really think of AW as a greedy redknapp type to be easily seduced by 2M?

    if you do, you get the man all wrong… and i would be surprised if as you stated the other evening you have read about him extensively.

    he is about an honest a football manager as you will ever find when it comes to money.

  75. 3 out of 20 bad is it chippy?

    lol

  76. peaches you are joking right?

    all 17 players AS REPORTED BY ARSENAL.COM were within the last 18 months of contracts

    !!!!!!!

  77. chippy says:

    Yes when they got a selling value of around 10-15 mill i would say its pretty bad management,In the case of Senderos id say its pretty appaling weve lost him for not a bean !!

  78. to be honest, some will find every angle to attack wenger, some will find every angle to back him

    i think the battle lines are clear here.

  79. sendross is not worth more than 3M on the open market.. i note everton have hardly played him

    why?

  80. chippy says:

    Exactly hes hardly brilliant and weve all known that for years and yet we carried on paying him and giving him chances why didnt we just cut our losses and sell !

    Now you add that 3 million to the wages we would have saved and your talking about 5million pounds this clubs lost on a player that has hardly played a game in 2 seasons and your saying thats good management?

  81. chippy, milan paid his wages last season, and were offered him.. they sent him back and did not want to buy, everton have paid half his wages this season, and played him twice… and will send him back.

    nobody wants him.

  82. Yes I am suggesting it would have been better to have used the money – which I know has to include their wages too – to invest in new players.

  83. andy says:

    Senderos has been injured i think but that aside who do we think are the players who dont deserve the payrise / contract extensions ?

  84. and let 17 young players all go into their final years of contract?

    lol peaches, i think you are just being a stick in the mud now, and surely realise that would just be the work of fool.

  85. Alfa says:

    Morning all. Interesting article Rasp. I’m still genuinely smarting over all the negative comments about the performance against Man City so its good to see a post arguing for balance.

    SfH, peaches, the really interesting information in that Telegraph article is that the profit from the redevelopment is likely to be nearer £20m than the £100m expected when the scheme was dreamed up. As I’ve said repeatedly, Arsenal don’t have a lot of money to spend on players. Yes we are in a great position financially, yes the board are prudent, but that is precisely why we can’t compete with the Glazers, Abramovich, the Saudis etc. £20m is hardly a windfall, and nothing compared to the £150m we could have had if the Usmanov-inspired rights issue had gone ahead 18 months ago. Of course the board (the same ones who make AW speak with a forked tongue about how much money we have to spend) would have had to give up some control of the club. Perhaps to fans who might have bought some of the shares offered?

  86. peaches, what club with any sense and LONG TERM AMBITION, would bring in players aged 9, train them, nuture them, educate them, and just when they might break into top level status… let them run out of contract and walk for free?
    :lol:

  87. Alfa – would you have been in favour of a Usmanov rights issue?

  88. Alfa says:

    SfH, where in the accounts does it say what AW is paid, or show what is available for employee bonuses? I can’t find it. I don’t think any of us have any idea what anyone at the club is paid, except for the board remuneration (including Mr. Gatsides).

  89. under employee bonuses alfa.. where else?

    you will note the figure is nowhere near 2m

    nobody likes to the do the hard work of research these day, its far easier to trust a newsnow headline.

  90. Back to the £2m for a minute …………

    I don’t believe that we have qualified for the Champions League simply because Arsene gets a £2m bonus – I don’t believe he is interested in the money.

    But we are a team that is likely to qualify for the Champions League year after year and therefore how nice for Arsene that if we don’t win anything he still gets his bonus’ – that was the reason why I brought it up.

    I don’t see it as an incentive for him but its still nice at the end of the season.

  91. why is it nice for him if you dont believe he is interested in money?

    and we are only likely to qulaify for CL every year because of him

    look at pool this year? they were likely, surely?

  92. Alfa says:

    SfH yes, on balance yes, with a few reservations in that the details were never finalised and made public. As far as I can tell from the outside the club went through a period of being undercapitalised and if the property deal had really gone wrong (rather than being marginally profitable as it has turned out) we would have been in deep trouble. So it was a big risk that the board took, in order to preserve their share of the club which if course is now financially getting stronger and stronger.

    As a bonus we could have used some of the money to buy another striker as good as RvP, a GK and another CB even better than TV, making trophies more likely.

    And it would not have affected out debt position at all.

  93. chippy says:

    SFH,
    So your telling me over the last 2 years no football club would have been interested in buying Senderos that is complete rubbish, If that is the case then youve got to query Wengers judgement on players ;-)

  94. true alfa, but the upshot of it is we are now through the worst of it, and not controlled by a sugar daddie.

    i love the idea arsenal will ALWAYS be a big club, regardless of that fateful day when daddy finds another toy or snuffs it.

    chavs are living on borrowed time.

    we are a self-sustainable club now and forever, bliss!!

  95. Alfa says:

    SfH, I don’t get my financial information from Newsnow, I read the accounts. I couldn’t find the employee bonus information so I asked you. I must have missed that page, will be back when I have read it.

    I’m sure AW wants to win every competition he enters regardless of how much he is paid.

  96. Alfa precisely, do you think a club could pay out 2M to one single employee and not have to account for it?

    or have we being doing a peter storie and harry redknapp style jobbie, hiding payments offshore for AW?

  97. Rocky Lives says:

    Peaches, he probably does deserve a reward for getting us into the Champs League. The six or seven clubs below us would pay a king’s ransom to do just that. Presumably Arsene gets even more heavily rewarded if we win the title, Champs League, FA Cup etc.

  98. chippy he was offered to milan, who paid his wages, so he did not cost us anywhere near what you suggesteed in wages.

  99. can you imagine the protests arsenal fans would hold if we finished like pool had this season?

    after spending 200M

    and rafa has won how many titles for pool?

  100. Rocky Lives says:

    Wow – 101 responses and it’s only 1.30pm. Great pot-stirring Rasp.

  101. I was told about the £2m bonus by a good friend, if its the case that its not true it doesn’t really matter because I’m not using it as a stick to beat Arsene with.

    Arsenes restraints have been as a result of the current economic situation. I do think that some of the money spent on wages and better deals for players could have been used differently, thats my view.

  102. wages have gone up on 17 players, worth over a 100M, from 105 M to 120M

    thats 15M… how many players could we have bought instead of backing 17 of our own?

  103. Rasputin says:

    Sunday Times football richlist ….

    1 Roman Abramovich Chelsea £7,000m
    2 Joe Lewis Tottenham £2,500m
    3 Alisher Usmanov Arsenal £1,500m
    4 Lord Grantchester Everton £1,200m
    5 Mike Ashley Newcastle United £700m
    6 Mohamed al-Fayed Fulham £650m
    7= Peter Coates Stoke City £400m
    7= The Walker family Blackburn Rovers £400m
    9 The Warburton family Bolton Wanderers £330m
    10 Danny Fiszman Arsenal £214m
    11 Dave Whelan Wigan Athletic £190m
    12 Robert Earl Everton £150m
    13 Lord Harris Arsenal £130m
    14 Sir Keith Mills Tottenham £125m
    15 Martin Edwards Manchester United £92m
    16 Lady Nina Bracewell-Smith Arsenal £85m
    17 Steve Gibson Middlesbrough £82m
    18= Eddie Davies Bolton Wanderers £65m
    18= David Dein Arsenal £65m
    18= Sir John Hall Newcastle United £65m
    21 Bill Bottriell Tottenham £62m

    Players
    1 Michael Owen Newcastle United £40m
    2 Wayne Rooney Manchester United £35m
    3 Rio Ferdinand Manchester United (left) £30m
    4= Steven Gerrard Liverpool £20m
    4= Frank Lampard Chelsea £20m
    6 Cristiano Ronaldo Manchester United £18m
    7 John Terry Chelsea £17m
    8 Damien Duff Newcastle United £14m
    9 Ashley Cole Chelsea £13m
    10= Joe Cole Chelsea £12m
    10= Kieron Dyer West Ham United £12m
    10= Harry Kewell Galatasaray £12m
    13= Nicolas Anelka Chelsea £11m
    13= Petr Cech Chelsea £11m
    13= Michael Essien Chelsea £11m
    13= Robbie Keane Tottenham £11m
    17= Craig Bellamy Manchester City £9m
    17= Fernando Torres Liverpool £9m
    19 Jonathan Woodgate Tottenham £8m
    20 Cesc Fabregas Arsenal £7m

  104. Rasputin says:

    I didn’t put that up to prove any point … just for interest’s sake

  105. chippy says:

    Ok take the wages out of it weve still lost out on a fee in the region of 3-5 million pounds through mismanagement whatever way you look at it, We lost a young saleable asset for nothing

    Oh weve also had to pay Silvestre to take his place in the squad so in reality you can probably add his wages in, And your surely not going to tell me that Senderos for all his faults is a poorer defender than Silvestre !

  106. chippy – i think its a toss up between the pair, they are both sub-standard for our needs right now.

  107. Alfa says:

    SfH, you will have to help me out here. I checked again in the 2008/2009 accounts and all I can find on bonuses are the Directors bonuses and the fact that players and executives are rewarded with bonuses if part of their contract, but no numbers. What are me and peaches missing?

  108. chippy says:

    SFH,
    Why do you keep comparing us to Pool they havent won a title in 20 odd years and play in a 40 k capacity stadium,

    Where as we charge the Highest prices in world football play in front of 60k every week and seem to be content to stagnate,

  109. i answered that earlier…

    if this fabled 2M is not accounted for, legally

    are we breaking the law somehow and not putting such a HUGE amounts in our staff bonuses column?

  110. chippy – they have spent 200M in 6 years with a top manager.

    thought that was blindingly obvious?

    spending money does not guarantee you even a top4 billing

    we have a manager who has kept us there with a 32m profit on spending!!

  111. chippy – who said we are happy to stagnate?

  112. Surely the bonus would be for keeping us in the Champions League anyway.

    SH – what would you have thought if we’d slipped out of the Champions League places this season and £20m would have kept us up there? A better keeper for example and maybe another central defender?

  113. of course peaches, but as we have never looked likely to be out of the top 4 once this entire season

    what the issue?

  114. i thought we challenged for the title up until 3 weeks out?

  115. chippy says:

    Man United sold there best player for 80million and didnt take up the option on another and yet there top manager wins plenty,

    Thats my point you cannot just pick out the one that suits you best ie Liverpool when on the other side of the coin you could pick out Fergie,Mourinho, Etc

  116. Maybe we’re lucky that the injury to Vermaelen didn’t come earlier in the season then – we’ve battled against our injuries for months and when it was important we succumbed. We didn’t have any back-up – we pay wages to players that aren’t good enough to be back-up when we need them.

    If we’d cracked up 2 or 3 weeks earlier we may have been overtaken by the chasing pack. We may still only finish fourth.

    Our wage bill is not significantly less although we have younger and less experienced players in our squad – that they may be usefull in the future hasn’t helped this season or last season.

  117. what point are you making, chippy?

  118. and maybe we were unlucky that we lost so many of our top spinal players over the season.

    glass half full? or half empty?

  119. Exactly SH we were challenging for the title but when push came to shove we collasped at Wigan and gave away a 2 goal lead because we didn’t have strength in depth.

  120. You’ve got me there – I’m always glass half full and would have loved to still be challenging for the next 2 weeks.

    If we don’t buy a new keeper I’m gonna be proper angry and I know where Arsene lives :)

  121. we were 2 nil up with 9 mins to go

    the 11 players we good enough for a large part of that game.

    those final 9 mins are unexplainable, our bottle went imo.

    would having a 20m goalie have changed the result? maybe?

    but its all if’s and but’s

    my glass is firmly half full, and i am thankful that we are over the worst of our financial plight and look forward to plenty being spent over the summer.

    i have had, and do have a very clear idea about where this club are going.

  122. chippy says:

    The point i was making was you always compare us with Liverpool and Benitez as it suits your argument you never compare us with the likes of United and Fergie as that wouldnt sit so well,

    Id say the Board and Wenger are happy for us to Stagnate they keep telling us how lucky we are to be in the Champions league dosent matter a jot to them that everytime we come up against a top quality organised outfit we get beat they then go on to tell us only the league and champions league matters anymore ! Thats ok then dont worry that nigh on 5,000 fans made the trip to Stoke to see us get beat with a reserve side, Do you ever hear Fergie saying its ok we didnt win anything but we came in the top four thats a success ??

  123. they lost to leeds at home.. now that was disgraceful

    should have sacked fergie on the spot… right?

  124. Of course right :lol:

    I’m not going to be around for a while but I’ll be back ;)

  125. chippy, its a success for us as we have not been able to compete with utd on money front

    can you see that?

  126. chippy says:

    SFH,
    No i cant see it as a Success,

    If thats the case no one may as well bother apart from the richest club as theyve got more money than everyone else its a defeatist attitude,

    FC Twente may as well have not bothered this season in that case as Ajax PSV And Feynoord all spend millions more than them,

    Ditto Werder Bremen last season in Germany

    Bordeux in france

  127. chippy – this is boring, my view is we have done well within our resources over the last few seasons, and now we have loot, we will step it up.. if after having spent 40M this summer we get a similar season to this.. i will share you views… but in light of the facts we challenged on a fraction of chavs and manures budget… i commend my team, not berate them!!

    i am just cut form a different cloth to you, no point falling out over it.

    i am a totally glass half full man.

  128. chippy says:

    SFH,
    No Totally its good to have a debate without it turning into a pissing match, And as ive said previous im really hoping your correct and we will spend whats required as Wenger does deserve the opportunity to spend some serious dough for once,

  129. Rocky Lives says:

    This has been an excellent debate.
    And with the way our season dipped at the end the questions of whether we’re improving, static or declining are bound to continue.
    As will the ‘will-he-spend-or-won’t-he?’ argument.

    But perhaps we should open up a few different topics in the days ahead…

  130. Kipmonster says:

    Great Post ! that summarises my long held thoughts of the ridiculousness of the label of non supporting traitors that is given by the ‘ Arsene Knows ‘ brigade, the majority of whom never attend a match & have nothing invested in supporting the club apart perhaps from a Birthday present Arsenal shirt from Aunt Doris.
    Mr Wenger is fortunate that the Arsenal fans have been so benign after seeing the same mistakes & weaknesses occur for several seasons now along with consistent inability to win the ‘ Big Important ‘ matches. The club behaves like ‘ Harrods ‘ when taking money off fans but behaves like ‘ DelBoy ‘ when it comes to spending. If winning is to be a priority then this has to change.

  131. Rocky Lives says:

    Kip, why do you think people who go to the games can’t possibly fall into the ‘Arsene Knows’ camp?

  132. Rocky Lives says:

    In my experience the range of opinions expressed at the ground is just as broad as the one expressed online.

  133. RL – i was surrounded by new season ticket holders at the emms in the south upper during the first 2 seasons at the new ground, they all took the anti-arsene slant.. having heard from folk who have sat at the other end, nearest to REDaction, they are very pro-wenger.

    i get the feeling, the vast majority of real old skool gooners, who can remember the real dark days, have a really positive view of the club right and understand things a little better in terms of why we have had so little to spend and why remaining top 4 till we can spend again has been so vital and a real accomplishment.

    there are a huge number of new fans at the emms, who have only ever seen the wenger era, so naturally they will think things are bad now compared with circa 98.

  134. charybdis1966 says:

    Interesting debate going on with SfH, Chippy, R Lives et al today. Good stuff, so my visits to the Grove will be over now till August. I’m quite sad at that.

  135. chippy says:

    SFH,
    Beleive me im not doing this to be Argumentive but i think its the other way and ill tell you my reasons why,

    Alot of the Old School are pretty disgusted with the way the clubs been run over these past few years not so much on the pitch more a case of it,

    It started with the badge and ended with the Emirates alot feel totally alienated from the club they love and are leaving in big numbers whats happening on the pitch isnt helping granted but as i say alot stems from other stuff,

    More and more are also just renting there tickets out now as they dont want to cut ties completly but if you go into any number of pubs around the ground come kick off youll find vast amounts of said fans watching the games on a dodgy channel whilst enjoying a pint ;-)

    Thats not just Arsenal ill hasten to add but its probably being repeated up and down the country as more and more feel cut of from what footballs become,

  136. Rocky Lives says:

    SfH – where I sit (upper West, level with the north end penalty area) there’s a real mix of viewpoints. Some people seem to be offended by every player, every pass, every shot, everything that the team or manager does. But they’re a minority and more people seem generally encouraged.
    The ranks of the deeply disgruntled do contain a few grey-heads, so it’s not just the young ‘uns who are impatient.

  137. Big Raddy says:

    My fourpence worth is that there is negativity in all walks of life and football is no different.

    Some folk spend their whole lives worried , others are carefree.

    In other words, some people are just moaners, always have been and always will be.

    It is a question of psyche.

    My positivity towards the Arsenal is a reflection of my personality. Yes I want to be the best and will do all I can to improve myself, but I am not going to top my manager/wife for coming 3rd. :-)

  138. chippy says:

    Big Raddy

    I bet the wifes glad to hear that :-)

  139. Big Raddy says:

    Chippy, what you say about alienation is undoubtedly true.

    We are clients/customers to the Arsenal. It is the inevitable result of the current English football model. Barcelona have fans – they own their club.

    I blame the Americanisation of Sport and Margaret Thatcher.

  140. GhostFace says:

    Fuck me

    This is by far the best post ive read on the site.

  141. GhostFace says:

    London Says:
    April 26, 2010 at 9:03 am
    Ghost Face

    If you don’t think that Vermaelen has improved the defence you are as blind as you are deaf.

    —————————

    Ignorance is bliss.

    http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/04/09/thomas-vermaelen-arsenal-positional-errors/

  142. chippy says:

    Big Raddy,
    Agree and i thinks thats half the problem you treat people like customers and they will act like consumers and at the Mo demand still outweighs supply so they carry on in the same vain it will be interesting when the role is reversed tho !

  143. GhostFace says:

    BR

    I agree with you 1 million percent.

    The amercianisation of the club is a dangerous thing. One which we see here in the states where the fans continuously get mugged off and they make success all about a star player so as to drive shirt sales, sponsorship deals etc etc.

    I can tell you as an Philadelphia Eagles fans…we’ve had to deal with selling our best players and replacing them with College kids for the last 5 – 6 seasons despite what the fans think.

    Suffice to say we’ve won fuck all.

  144. big game of champions league footy on the box tonight..

    what do you guys reckon?

    i hope for drama, and i always back the underdog, which is lyon tonight, but i would want bayern in the final in order we get a good matched final showpiece.

  145. London says:

    Make that deaf, blind and stupid.

  146. Big Raddy says:

    I want the Bayern to win.

    Lyon is an awful town and Bayern are a better bet to stop Me-rinho in the Final.

    SfH. Shame the bet went down. The 100% record goes….

  147. BR – he went down to 13/2 in running ;)

    got out at the strategy mark of 8/1, so got my stake back.

    was a wonderful game of attacking snooker.

  148. Chippy says:

    Best all round debate I’ve had on all things Arsenal in a good while cheers all,

    Tonights game yep I’m in the german camp anything and anyone bar the so called special one!

    GF, I’ve family now in St Louis and by all accounts the atmos in stadiums is so manufactured and false it’s unreal but they were used to English footbal so probs a bit unfair we are defo moving down that route what with the Nazi stewards and crap like wonder of you anyway I thought phillie had the more vocal support stateside? I lay the blame at the feet of sky !

  149. i hope lyon play a striker called bafe gomis, has arsenal written all over him, in the mould of a certain ex-guuner now at city, but more skillfull and faster.

  150. GhostFace says:

    Deaf, blind and stupid?

    Hahaha…Ironic

    Listen

    Old timer…whats with the name calling?

    Christ…who put sand in your coffee this morning?

    Believe what you want to believe with your perfectly fine to be ignorant if you wish but whats with the insults?

    This is the World wide web people believe all kinds of things despite the evidence to the contrary.

    Its just like Rasputin said.

    Youre prob one of those that arent aware the earth isnt flat. Or that man has gone to the moon before.

    So while you are set in your ignorance you wont hear me calling you names now would you?

    Albeit all credit to you this time you did insult me to when i was around….i was beginning to think in addition to being Ignorant. Also a coward

  151. London says:

    Lyon, awful town? Bit harsh, nestled between two beautiful rivers lies the culinary jewel in the French crown……and then there is the burgundy wine, where do we start?

  152. London says:

    Ghost Face go back you your first communication with me and you will see that without provocation you chose to insult me. It will never be forgiven.

  153. Rasputin says:

    Cheers chippy,

    Thanks for your contribution today ;)

    GF,

    None of my comments were aimed at London, just an attempt to allow all those with a view to express them freely.

  154. GhostFace says:

    What comments would that be?

    That you are easily pleased?

    If that is an insult then i feel sorry for the poor miserable human being that accidentally steps on your foot in a crowded area.

    I dont need your forgiveness.

    But I did not insult you.

  155. GhostFace says:

    Rasp

    This was definitely a fine post.

    Top top top post. I enjoyed if very much.

    So who is the more passionate fan then?

    The question remains unanswered

  156. Alfa says:

    SfH, you’ve done a great job of keeping this discussion rolling along but I can’t accept your post at 1.38 responding to my question about where the accounts say that AW didn’t get a £2m bonus. You make a point of sounding very authoritative about everything you comment on but that doesn’t leave a lot of room for informed dissent, which is exactly what Rasp was writing about.

    SfH wrote:

    _________________________________________________

    i answered that earlier…

    if this fabled 2M is not accounted for, legally

    are we breaking the law somehow and not putting such a HUGE amounts in our staff bonuses column?
    _________________________________________________

    This is nonsense. Telling me I get my financial facts from Newsnow then coming out with stuff like that I have to put down to irrational exuberance, seeing as we are all mates on here.

    1. In general a company does not have any obligation to declare the bonuses paid to individual employees, except in the case of directors where the remuneration has to be declared (and is by Arsenal). If AW gets a bonus it will be shown under the staff costs, the same as all the players and other staff.

    2. AW is highly likely to be on a bonus, as the board make it clear that they see bonuses as an important and useful way of motivating their employees (which AW is as London tries to explain every now and then). This is on page 29 of the Accounts, I don’t know if it was reported on Newsnow.

    3. We don’t know how big his bonus target is, but it is reasonable to assume that it is a significant percentage of his salary (taking Gatsides as an example for comparison – he earned a 50% bonus last year). We also know that top managers in the EPL earn in the range of £4m to £6m. So a £2m target bonus would be quite reasonable.

    4. What would AW get his bonus for? Based on common practice for senior execs, mostly it would be for achievement on the pitch that he is responsible for like progress in the EPL, Champions League etc., probably some for the club’s off the pitch performance – on other words if he won the EPL but the club lost £200m doing so, he probably wouldn’t get his bonus.

    I’ve laid all this out at boring length for two reasons, firstly to show that Peaches made a perfectly reasonable point when she suggested that AW might be getting £2m for qualifying for the Champions League. Not only that, she was probably closer to the truth than you were.

    Secondly to say that I for one would enjoy these discussions more if, in the spirit of Rasps post, I and others could express an opinion without you and some others assuming it was ill-informed or fabricated. You aren’t the only person who knows a thing or two. It might not be correct but we are just a bunch of mates having a chat, and I like to think the best of people until shown otherwise.

  157. it’s not a question of which type of fan is better/more passionate.

    you miss the point entirely if you seriously pose that question GF.

  158. GhostFace says:

    I always seem to miss the point with you SFH…

    “This has led me to ask myself, who is the more passionate supporter? ….”

  159. Rasputin says:

    Hi GF,

    The passion is probably equal on both sides but spills over into mild hysteria and anger on one side and intollerance and anger on the other … but I’m not saying which is which :lol:

  160. Rasputin says:

    Thanks SH, your answer is accurate, I’m just back up on my fence :lol:

  161. aah, but alfa, peaches did not suggest he “might be”

    she suggested he was!!

    anyway, i always seem to get under your collar, unintenionally i may add.

    apoloigies if that is the case… its just a blog, no real need for gettting bent out of shape about it.

    you are WRONG about bonus payments, if you were not wrong, why are redknapp and co being investigated for not declaring bonuses?

  162. GhostFace says:

    yeah Rasp

    It is an interesting one…like for the life of me I cannot understand how people “who shrinks back behind the Arsène force field that repels all criticism”

    Think the other side of the coin are any less passionate or do not support the Arsenal.

    You hear it all the time. Go support another club…or the difference between me and you is that I am a supporter.

    Makes me absolutely cry laughing.

  163. Rasputin says:

    GF,

    I don’t doubt that everyone on here is passionate, bordering on obsessed with Arsenal, and those who have the gumption to write a post all have my respect.

  164. Alfa says:

    SfH, which bit am I wrong about? That AW gets a bonus? That it isn’t roughly £2m? Or that it doesn’t depend mainly on Arsenal on pitch performance? I’ve given my reasons why I think I’m broadly correct.

    You’ve compared AWs situation with ‘arrys. Redknapp is in trouble because it appears that he did not declare to the Inland Revenue a payment or payments he received from Portsmouth and/or Mandaric – yet to be proved one way or the other.

    I have no doubt whatsoever that Arsene declares all of his earnings to the Inland Revenue, judging by what we know of the man he probably gets it right to the penny. So ‘arry’s situation has no bearing on what we know about AWs bonus.

    You don’t get under my skin, but I do like to keep some balance in these debates and I enjoy getting to some real insight, from whatever source.

  165. Big Raddy says:

    London. I hav the misfortune to drive through Lyons on a regular basis. Reminds me of N17.

    But I will give you the wine!

    As far as I can see an Arsenal fan is an Arsenal fan, however they view the cub. I may not agree with the nay-sayers but I cannot deny their support.

    However, there is a huge gulf in knowledge of a game if one hasn’ t been to THOF. Hence I bow to the first hand experience of those who have attended the game.

    My armchair support is a poor second best, but doesn’t stop me having an opinion.

    GF. There is no blogger on AA who believe AW is beyond constructive criticism.

  166. Alfa, i’m sure wenger does get a bonus, like most employees who hit targets in any profession do.

    But if it was as high as 2M, which would be equivalent to around 40% of his salary, this would have to be shown on the accounts… i.e declared by the club, not just aw on his personal return!

    what pompey did was not declare the bonus as a club, hence they are in trouble, and what arry did was not declar it personally, so he is also in trouble.

    i think its becoming an easy stick to beat aw with, oh he is ok with just top 4 as he gets his bonus.

    which is exactly how is was stated this morning.

  167. Alfa says:

    BR, as a regular attender now but for most of my life an armchair fan I can say that armchair is by no means second best in terms of passion. And although you do see a side of the game in the ground that you don’t see at home, at least at home you knew that Given had dislocated his shoulder and you also get the real facts on offsides – in the ground we never are but they always are! :)

  168. Big Raddy says:

    True Alfa. But I am the other way around. Up to 4 years ago a regular/fanatical attender and now a S/T holder but armchair fan.

    The attendee can go home and watch a re-run of the game, thereby getting both viewpoints, the armchair fan on the other hand……

  169. Big Raddy says:

    If Cesc earns upwards of €6m p.a.and bonuses, why shouldn’t his boss earn more?

  170. Alfa says:

    SfH, I think that again you are substituting assertion for facts. Which is fine, if you would just credit me with a bit of insight as well. At least we are agreed he deserves some sort of bonus (a big one in my view).

    Pompey and ‘arry have to declare such payments to the Inland Revenue, not to the public at large. I think you have confused the two.

    My last word on the subject is that none of my professional colleagues have ever had their multi-million pound bonuses declared in a company’s public accounts unless they were a director, yet they did earn them and all are beyond reproach in terms of their tax affairs. However, I’m basing my facts on a relatively small personal sample so by all means lets settle on your view.

    Off to cook the dinner, thanks all for a lively debate.

  171. GhostFace says:

    BR

    I respect your opinion as always but ofcoarse again respectfully disagree. I have been to the Emirates a couple times last year the more painful experience being our infamous drubbing against the Mancs in the CL. And if i didnt tell you you wouldnt know me as the type of fan to make a nuisance of myself till the whistle blows much less than when the match was over after 8 minutes.

    Did I enjoy the game? Well i was determined to..even if it cost me 10 days of vacation from work the next year and missing my flight because I got on the wrong train to gatwick instead of heathrow and had to spend an extra night in a hotel that absolutely rapped my credit card whilst not getting any sleep for fear i might miss the 8am flight to NY while all this time my phone was dead and my passport went missing. Thank God i could use my drivers licence.

  172. Alfa, please, are the accounts that are “publicly” released by a club/business.. not also the basis for a return to the IR?

  173. GhostFace says:

    Either way…

    My opinion shouldnt matter any less.

    Arm chair or not.

    Besides if your reason for enjoying the game is not for pure footablling reasons like….meeting up with friends…sunshine having beer in the sun…and booing a certain player or ex-player….then why should that have take any more weight than the actual game of football?

  174. the confusion here is you are mixing up a personal tax return, which arry or wenger will make and not reveal to anybody

    but the club release accounts that then form the cornerstone of the return they file to the IR.

    simples.

  175. kelsey says:

    Apoligies for only joining in so late in the day.

    Rasp an excellent post and I am sure it was not easy to write and at the same time keep a balance on what appears two opposing camps, even though the suppot for the club will always be first and foremost.

    I don’t express myslf as elequently as others but through the internet I find there is now a level of blog writers of a higher education than your average(what used to be called working class ) fan. So much so that sometimes they come over as knowlegable businessmen and accountants rather than Arsenal football fans. There is sometimes an aloofness which doesn’t sit well with me.In other words they are never wrong and always want to have the last word.

    If we lose 6-0 or 1-0 I feel gutted for days,just as i did some 50 years ago, but I don’t hold extreme views about our manager one way or another, but I am still entitled to my opinion, because at the end of the day we are just fans and have no control over what goes on at the club.

    I am not addressing anyone on here, as it applies to a number of blogs, some far more extreme pro or anti Wenger than I feel.

    When people express an opinion which may offend another, it is easy to just brush it off afterwards by saying it wasn’t meant to be disrespectful as it is only an internet.

    Take the same group of people with opposing views and put them together say in a pub, I am sure one would get a totally different picture,or at least more of an understanding of a point of view, where one face to face.

    p.s. sorry my spelling is awful.

  176. London says:

    I think the thing that is getting mixed up here is that people do use this bonus as a stick to beat Arsenal with. It seems perfectly reasonable to me that Wenger receives a bonus for coming forth: City, spuds, Liverpool and Villa are killing themselves to try and do exactly that. That’s not to say that first wouldn’t be better and no doubt there would be a bigger bonus if that were achieved. I suppose the point is that “Gooners who hate Arsenal” can always find a stick to beat the club.

    SFH

    It’s that NN thing, you understand ;)

  177. Rocky Lives says:

    Kelsey, don’t do yourself down. That was as eloquent a post as I’ve read on here all day and makes a brilliant point. In short, it’s very easy for some of us posters to take ourselves a bit too seriously and to patronise others in a manner we’d be unlikely to use in person.
    Just as Wenger is clearly fallible, so too are all the posters on here fallible – even the most seemingly informed ones (as they are kind enough to prove on a regular basis).

  178. Big Raddy says:

    Rocky. May I respectfully point out that you are wrong.

    I am always in the right. (well usually or at least some of the time or occasionally)

    GF. I am not stating that those who go to the game have a better perspective, just a more rounded one.

    I am lucky insomuch as I cannot receive the mindless commentary that informs so many TV viewers, nor do we get the endless repetition of incidents or the post match analysis (not having access to UKTV). Pundits with agendas create so much of the basis of fans opinions. It is a sad fact of the Sky era.

  179. London says:

    Great comment Kelsey, I agree with Rocky your post is as elequent if not more so that any other on here all day.

    kelsey

    If you are concerned about your spelling write it first on “word” use the spell check and then copy and paste it onto here….that’s what I do anyway as my spelling is laughable. Give it a try, it’s so easy and only takes a second.

  180. London says:

    What I have learnt is that although I may go to most of the games I don’t always see what people watching on TV do, I have said this several times before Kelsey spots things I never notice. So, the up shot of this is that I have learnt not to take an aloof view just because I went to the match. The other obvious thing is that the people watching in other countries would love to be there.

  181. London says:

    BR

    Do me a favour and pop into this restaurant and let me know if it is worth the trip.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/…/Noma-in-Copenhagen-named-best-restaurant-in-the-world.html

    That is if you haven’t already been there.

  182. Chippy says:

    I’ve never been called fallible before is that a good thing ;)

    Nice post kelsey, 50 years mate blimey you’ve seen some changes some good some bad I guess, was your name sake as good as my grandad Said he was? Reckon we could do with a modern day jack kelsey!

  183. London says:

    Chippy you have a really likable tone to your posts, I don’t agree with most of what you say but there is something about the tone I can’t help but like ;)

  184. GhostFace says:

    If you beat your child with a stick…does that mean you hate them?

  185. London says:

    Actually, I remember what I was thinking, anyone who can remember Charlie George scoring is one of us, you have just been led astry a bit. We will sort you out and have you loving Arsenal again in no time.

  186. GhostFace says:

    BR

    I agree that pundits and commentary can shape a fans view or twist it somehow…however i think my view has been very different from the sky pundits.

    Sky pundits say Wenger can win anything unless he spends.

    I say Wenger can never win anything if he doesnt take our defense seriously or training how we can take shots on goal when we create the space instead of passing to eternity.

    My view is Wenger can win it without spending it but the management needs a little tweaking…visa vi a Keown to help him in the defensive department.

    Furthermore.

    I live in the U.S.A theyre’s no Sky here :D

  187. Rocky Lives says:

    Sorry BR – naturally I didn’t mean to include you. Er… or myself.

  188. London says:

    It means you have serious psychological issues. But that is funny.

    Ok Ghost Face, here is the olive branch, if I say I enjoyed myself at the Emirates, no belittling comment, I don’t like it.

  189. GhostFace says:

    London

    you were never spanked as a kid aye?

  190. GhostFace says:

    And if you were are you saying your parents have/had psychological issues?

  191. you on the wine tonight, london?

  192. London says:

    Is it that obvious, what gave it away?

  193. London says:

    If you beat your child with a stick…does that mean you hate them?

    No, it means you have serious psychological issues

  194. lol london, you call sense a mellow tone in posts.

  195. GhostFace says:

    I take it that most Asians/Africans/South American’s have psychological issues.

  196. Chippy says:

    London,
    People will start talking lol, Mate if we all agreed on everything the world would be a boring place, Its always good to get different views as long as they don’t turn into slanging matches as that’s pointless and does no one no favours , Good luck getting me back on the right path but if you could re instate our badge that would be a good start ;) I’m off till tomorrow thrn we can start round 2 lol

    oh and London my views are always right just so you know for future reference :)

  197. Gf :lol:

    are you saying its ok to beat a child with a “stick”?

    if so, that’s outrageous

  198. London says:

    Ghost Face

    I have tried

  199. GhostFace says:

    Whats outrageous about it?

    I was raised with a stick to my bottom.

  200. London says:

    See ya Chippy

  201. its bleeding medieval pal thats why

    a slap on the bottom, fair enough… but using weapons to beat your child is a form of mental illness for sure.

    100% no doubt about it.

  202. GhostFace says:

    This is clearly a cultural difference here.

    London.

    If we were discussing in a pub there is no way or shape what i said wouldve been insulting. I was amused that you enjoyed the game and thought you were the kind of person who is easily entermtained.

    Im still shocked and suprised you saw it as belittling

  203. London says:

    SFH

    Lets talk football. What positions, how many players do you expect to come in over the summer, I am a bit concerned that you are putting a bit too much emphasis on the 40 mil that you mention.

  204. London says:

    SFH

    Don’t get drawn into that one with GF it’s a wind up.

  205. GhostFace says:

    its not a wind up…

    Most African American’s are whipped with a stick, shoes, hangers, belts….Its tradition.

    ”The Chinese believe I hit you because I love you. The harder I hit you, the more I love you.”

  206. i think it will be at least 30, up to 40 he has.

    we know he has had spent 15M on arshavin in the past… so to now hear “we have more money than we have had in a long time” you have to double what we have had before.. at least,

    I see Frey coming in as GK, and 2 defenders, maybe melo if juve let him go and chamak is done on a free.

  207. London says:

    What do you think will happen with Gallas?

  208. Rocky Lives says:

    I had a teacher who used to use a wooden plank on pupils’ arses if they misbehaved.
    The good old days.

  209. this summer is going to be fun :)

  210. Rocky Lives says:

    He wasn’t even a Catholic priest.

  211. GhostFace says:

    Rocky your teacher apparently has psychological issues.

  212. london he is off to roma from what i hear

    i am not that dissapointed if he goes, even though he was brilliant earlier in the season.

    he has a tendency to go mental at the worst times.

    and fair play to him if he can blag a 3 yr deal at his age.

  213. RL – he was a pervert

  214. London says:

    SFH

    Yeah, I agree in so much it will all depend on who offers him the longest contract. I wouldn’t rule Arsenal breaking their over 30 rule. My guess is that the future of Campbell and Silvestre depends on what happens with Gallas.

  215. OMG just seen the trailer for this new Robin Hood film.. looks like an english version of gladiator.

  216. i think AW would offer him 2 years, but if he gets 3 from ranieri and a clean slate in serie a… with champions league footy.. it would make sense for him.

  217. London says:

    Ghost Face

    If you were in a pub and I walked in and said that I enjoyed the game and you condescendingly said to me that I must be easily pleased I would punch you in the face. Do you get it now?

  218. excellent, gomis on for lyon, a chance to see how he has developed since his move.

  219. London says:

    Yep SFH as you say it would make sense. What do you think of Djourou?

  220. London says:

    I forget football was on I off to watch it.

  221. kelsey says:

    A catholic priest going to Roma makes sense.

    Chippy I will tell you how I met Jack kelsey and flew to Anderlecht sitting next to him by chance.Another story, another day.

  222. i like him, a lot, i can see him as a partner for vermy, he has the height to clear the high balls.

    but i dont think he is dirty enough, for such a big fella, he needs to dish it out a bit.

    even varmy is a nice fella, he gets stuck in, but we need a real intimadatory CB to bully players.

  223. here, watch this and have a right LOL

  224. Big Raddy says:

    Some fine banter today.

    Kelsey. Add your story to the post tomorrow – it will be very apt

  225. Big Raddy says:

    Why couldn’t we have drawn Lyons instead of Barca? – they are pants.

  226. Big Raddy says:

    I recall seeing Van Bommel playing for PSV and thinking he was the dirtiest player I had ever seen. And now he is in the CL Final at 33y.o.

    Hope he gets humiliated by Barca (please) in the final. Let him try and kick Xavi as he skips passed him

  227. London says:

    Hi BR

    That is what I was thinking, with a full team we could have beaten Bayern or Lyon, just goes to show that that competition is a lottery.

  228. Big Raddy says:

    True London. Tomorrows SF is the real Final.

  229. I am leaning towards barca finding a way to crack the inter nut.

    Should be a cracking game whatever the result.. can’t beat an important game of football played by 2 top sides.

  230. Big Raddy says:

    London. Yes I have eaten at Noma, a couple of years ago.

    Absolutely fantastic, but eye-watering prices even by Danish standards. And now there is at least a month long waiting list.

    If you decide to try it , I can give you a guided tour of CPH.

  231. Big Raddy says:

    Referring back to the poll we had about possible Spud players at THOF. I repeat, Dawson would be a fine signing for us. Just the sort of player we need.

    And on another issue. There is an assumption that AW has signed Chamakh, yet nothing has been confirmed. He would be great, but even greater would be David Villa. And why not? AW inferred that he had approached Valencia about signing him in January. Valencia have stated that Villa will leave this summer and neither Real or Barca need him (though Ibra has not been a huge success).

    Is it possible that Villa could come to THOF? He is the perfect player for us, intelligent, lethal, pacy, strong and Cesc would love it.

  232. London says:

    Morning BR

    Thank you for the offer of the guided tour, very kind.

    Villa would be fantastic, there would be street parties in Islington if he signed.

    As for Dawson, apart from being biased perhaps I haven’t seen enough of him.

  233. Morning all

    I was chatting to my spud brother last night and he also thinks Dawson is awesome. I only watch spuds if I want them to lose so I probably don’t pay enough attention. Being mealy-mouthed about them I try not to notice if they have anyone any good :oops:

    As for David Villa he would certainly fit into our system, Cesc would love it but he’s probably going to have an amazing world cup and be priced out of Arsènes pocket. We can dream though ………..

  234. Raddy – is your post ready to go?

  235. I’ve posted it anyway :)

    NEW POST

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